Problems with the Morse conspiracy theory

[PossumPie]

I've collected Franz's bits and pieces of theory together. When I refute one piece, he ignores me and discusses something else, so I am attempting to put them all together on one place. My head spins from the astronomical coincidences and stretches of imagination.

1. Franz believes that b/c Morse said "My God, what happened here?" that that indicates the first time Morse heard of the murders.
Answer- NO. It just could mean that he wanted more details about it.

2. Franz is suspicious b/c both Sawyer and Churchill said that they were the first to tell Morse of the murders.
Answer- That is a Sawyer and Churchill's confusion, NOT Morse's. Mrs. Churchill also said Mrs. Russell let Morse in. Was SHE in on the Murders? NO...just confusion.

3. Franz is very concerned with Morse shouting "What?"
Answer- One word, in a moment of shock. Meaningless.

4. Franz is concerned with Morse shouting "Lizzie"
Answer- WHY??? If I were there I would have shouted 'Lizzie' also. Worried about her safety. Wanting to comfort her. Wanting answers from her.

5. He is very concerned with Morse "rushing into the dining room"
Answer- The dining room door was in front of him as he stood in the kitchen. Voices were coming from that room. The door to the sitting room was closed. Perhaps Lizzie's voice could be heard. There is absolutely nothing strange about that in the least. Besides, Morse was away when the murders occurred. How would he know where Mr. Borden was killed EVEN IF he orchestrated the murders??? He couldn't predict where Mr. Borden would be killed.

6. Franz is concerned that after being told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden were hacked up, didn't go right in but stood at the door "a few minutes"
Answer- Not enough evidence here. What is a few minutes? did he mean moments? did Morse fear to go in and see the horrible bloody mess? Was he weak in the knees and trying to steady himself? We don't know. It doesn't necessarily mean he was thinking of an alibi...he had all morning to do that if Franz is correct...

7. Franz is concerned that Morse brought Mr. Borden's letter with him on the visit.
Answer- There is nothing suspicious at all in having the letter. The letter was the purpose of the visit. The envelope may have been with the letter. A letter can be defined as a correspondence on paper and the envelope it came in. The letter was written by Mr. Borden. A forgery would have been identified easily by all of the other written documents available. IF Morse wanted it as an alibi, WHY EVEN COME TO Fall River at all? the Best Alibi would be to be 200 miles away!!!!

8. Franz dismisses the pages and pages of lies, inconsistencies, and contradictions made by Lizzie stating that she was confused, upset, and possibly masturbating in the barn. BUT he picks on every tiny trivial inconsistency by Morse, and makes a case out of it.
Answer- Be consistent. If you acknowledge that Lizzie could have been upset and did and said suspicious things, admit that Morse could also.

9. Franz's theory is that Morse hired two men, one of whom hid beside the house while the other knocked. The knocker then quickly retreated off of the porch, onto the sidewalk. When Mrs. Borden opened the door, the man called loudly to be heard those 20 feet and over the noise of the street that he had a note. Mrs. Borden than walked out the door, down the steps down the sidewalk to get the note. The other man sneeked behind her, avoiding the people in the house up the steps into the room and waited to kill Mrs. Borden.
Answer- The photos at the time show the doorway is recessed in the wall. The fence is small, an in the open with no bushes at all to hide behind. The neighbor's house is close, and the neighbor's maid was in the yard talking to Bridget. The maid, or Bridget, or both would have seen anyone lurking about. The people on the street would have seen a man acting suspiciously. Mrs. Borden would have not gone out and down, she would have said "Well, bring it to me!" They were afraid...there were 3 locks on the door! She was elderly and vulnerable. He was a stranger.

10. Franz thinks that Morse intentionally sat up with Mr. Borden until 10pm to make him tired in the morning, thus easier to kill.
Answer- Easier to kill? a 70 year old sick man? You need him to be tired in order to get the upper hand on a 70 year old weak, sick man???

11. Franz believes Morse had Mr. and Mrs. Borden killed.
Answer- we have not one shred of evidence that he had a motive. No one said they had argued. Lizzie, on trial for HER LIFE never tried to cast suspicion on Morse. Emma never cast suspicion on Morse. Bridget never said one word against him. He gained no money, no property, no satisfaction at all that we have any evidence for.

[NancyDrew]

You pretty much put it to bed...good post.

[PossumPie]

You pretty much put it to bed...good post.

Thanks. I am not opposed to wild theories about the Borden murders...but they must be logical, make sense, and have some shred of supporting evidence. To spend entire posts disecting why Morse said "What?" is absurd. Let's change the subject and discuss something else. I'd like it if we discussed Lizzie, Emma, and Morse's activities in the years after the crimes. That would be fun!

[Aamartin]

It's always good when a new person shows up who is willing to theorize-- it breathes new life into the case. However, I do agree the Morse conspiracy is too Arnold Brownish for me!!! I worry he is not open to other ideas.

[Allen]

I think this thread addressed most of the problems I have also had with this theory.

[Darrowfan]

8. Franz dismisses the pages and pages of lies, inconsistencies, and contradictions made by Lizzie stating that she was confused, upset, and possibly masturbating in the barn.

PossumPie, you owe me a new keyboard, because when I read this part of your post, I had just taken a drink of coffee, which I spit all over my desk.

[Allen]

I think some of the confusion in testimony also stems from the way people spoke back then. Much of their way of speaking, which they took for granted as every day speech, is very different from the way we speak now. I don't think it was Mrs. Churchill who was confused so much as people today are confused by what she said. When Mrs. Churchill said Alice Russell let Morse in, I think she meant let him into the dining room, not the house. The dining room door had been closed and Alice probably opened it to let Morse in. That's my take on it. And I think Franz picks apart testimony and puts too much weight on insignificant things. Such as Morse saying "what?" and hollering "Lizzie!" And Franz said Morse was a bad actor because of what he said to Sawyer out on the porch. That's not bad acting, or "Shakespearean", it's how they actually spoke. Not just Morse. Everyone. I'm not sure where Morse could have gone that Franz would NOT have found suspicious. He went into the dining room right off from the kitchen, where he was standing, and hollered to Lizzie. Franz found that suspicious. If he had gone into the sitting room first Franz would have found that suspicious as he obviously already knew where the body was. His exclamations of shock and surprise were too Shakespearean, and still he did not show enough emotion and a lack of regard for Lizzie and her safety even after yelling "Lizzie!" and running into the dining room. Where did he expect the man to go? What did he expect the man to say?

Trial testimony of Adelaide Churchill:

Q. Who took charge of things, or matters there after the tragedy? Did anybody come in there that took charge of things?
A. No sir.

Q. Do you mean nobody did, or you don't know?
A. I don't know of anybody. Miss Russell looked out for Lizzie, and took her in the dining room soon after she came, and the dining room door was shut. If anybody wished to see her, they had to go in there.

[Allen]

Here is a lay out of the whole neighborhood as it pertains to the Borden house.

I. The Borden House.
II. Borden Barn.
III. The well.
IV. Fence with barbed wire on top.
V. Side entrance.
VI. Churchill's residence.
VII. Dr. Bowen's house.
VIII. Dr. Chagnon's house.
IX. Kelley House.
X. Yard from which officers watched the Borden house in the days following the murders.
XI. Kelley's barn.
XII. Pear Orchard.

[PossumPie]

Thanks all. Darrowfan, sorry about the keyboard! I want to make it clear I am NOT picking on Franz or anyone else. I just get frustrated that the theory is held together by inconsequential mis-understandings of trivial words, actions, and inconsistencies. I agree that this has given me a great chance to re-think many aspects of the case, but I guess we need a new theory now b/c I don't want to keep "beating a dead horse" I've started a few new threads to maybe change the subject.

[Franz]

Hello everyone. Thank you PossumPie and all of you who replied him. Thank you for your interest for my theory.

Before replying to PussumPie and others, I invite you, for another time, to change for a moment your mind. You are all very convinced Lizzie did it, it's OK, this is the major opinion of the case. But since the discussion is open, in other words, other theories are always possible, I invite everyone of you to change your mind for only a moment, just a moment and make a possible theory in which an intruder came into the house and killed Abby and Andrew. I know that some of you are very convinced, absolutely convinced of Lizzie's guilt. No problem, try to make an intruder theory, and I am sure that you would find that it is much more difficult to demonstrate Lizzie's innocence than her guilt. And I think no matter how one could be convinced of her guilt, we should all keep in mind that the contrary could be the truth. I think this is the respect we should have, not for Lizzie, but for the Borden case in itself.

I hope I have been clear. Thank you everyone.

(Another word, for Nancydrew and not only. I noticed that my speculation about Lizzie's masturbation in the barn was mentioned with some irony. Please be certain, my friends, that I have no interest at all for Lizzie's sexual life. Months ago I even didn't know who she was. My point is that, Lizzie lied about what she was doing in the barn, but this should not only mean that she was killing her father, she could have been trying to cover something she did in the barn that she absolutely couldn't confess. This idea, in my opinion, is certainly legittime and reasonable, I would be the same opinion if some one else thought in this manner. And, certainly, the possibilitie are numerous. I speculated one of them, an extreme one, it's true. Even though you are all convinced Lizzie's guilt, I think it should be an interesting subject: if Lizzie was innocent, what was she really doing in the barn? This subject, in my opinion, deserves a discussion in the forum. So Please don't take my theory only by its apparence. I have been discussing the case with you always very seriously.)

[Franz]

Sorry, double post.

[Miranda]

Franz, in my opinion Lizzie was never in the barn that morning. There is no evidence she was ever there. No footprints on a dusty floor says a lot. Also, since you are a man, maybe you don't understand that a woman wouldn't go to a filthy place for such a thing. She may have been doing whatever in her room, but not in a dirty place.

My belief in Lizzies guilt is not set in stone. Most of my life I believed there must have been someone else. Jumping rope as a child chanting "Lizzie Borden took an ax" made me look this up in the library. As a third-grader I couldn't wrap my mind around killing my family. I didn't do much more than that, she was found innocent, to my relief, so I didn't pursue it any further until adulthood.

Sometimes it is what it is, and no amount of tenacity will change the facts.

[Franz]

Franz, in my opinion Lizzie was never in the barn that morning. There is no evidence she was ever there. No footprints on a dusty floor says a lot. Also, since you are a man, maybe you don't understand that a woman wouldn't go to a filthy place for such a thing. She may have been doing whatever in her room, but not in a dirty place.

My belief in Lizzies guilt is not set in stone. Most of my life I believed there must have been someone else. Jumping rope as a child chanting "Lizzie Borden took an ax" made me look this up in the library. As a third-grader I couldn't wrap my mind around killing my family. I didn't do much more than that, she was found innocent, to my relief, so I didn't pursue it any further until adulthood.

Sometimes it is what it is, and no amount of tenacity will change the facts.

Hey Miranda, Lizzie could have been doing some other thing judged at that time scandalous, very scandalous for a woman of her social status.

And the no footprints evidence, if I recall corectly, is not reliable. And then, Lizzie could have been only on the first floor, but she lied to go up to the second to make up her searching something story (in order to cover what she was really doing).

I wish to read you more often.

[snokkums]

You pretty much put it to bed...good post.

Thanks. I am not opposed to wild theories about the Borden murders...but they must be logical, make sense, and have some shred of supporting evidence. To spend entire posts disecting why Morse said "What?" is absurd. Let's change the subject and discuss something else. I'd like it if we discussed Lizzie, Emma, and Morse's activities in the years after the crimes. That would be fun!

I'm with you on this one. It is refreshing to see new theories however wild, but they do have to have alittle bit of common sense and logical to them. Lord knows, I've come up with some wild ones!!

[PossumPie]

Hello everyone. Thank you PossumPie and all of you who replied him. Thank you for your interest for my theory.

Before replying to PussumPie and others, I invite you, for another time, to change for a moment your mind. You are all very convinced Lizzie did it, it's OK, this is the major opinion of the case. But since the discussion is open, in other words, other theories are always possible, I invite everyone of you to change your mind for only a moment, just a moment and make a possible theory in which an intruder came into the house and killed Abby and Andrew. I know that some of you are very convinced, absolutely convinced of Lizzie's guilt. No problem, try to make an intruder theory, and I am sure that you would find that it is much more difficult to demonstrate Lizzie's innocence than her guilt. And I think no matter how one could be convinced of her guilt, we should all keep in mind that the contrary could be the truth. I think this is the respect we should have, not for Lizzie, but for the Borden case in itself.

I hope I have been clear. Thank you everyone.

(Another word, for Nancydrew and not only. I noticed that my speculation about Lizzie's masturbation in the barn was mentioned with some irony. Please be certain, my friends, that I have no interest at all for Lizzie's sexual life. Months ago I even didn't know who she was. My point is that, Lizzie lied about what she was doing in the barn, but this should not only mean that she was killing her father, she could have been trying to cover something she did in the barn that she absolutely couldn't confess. This idea, in my opinion, is certainly legittime and reasonable, I would be the same opinion if some one else thought in this manner. And, certainly, the possibilitie are numerous. I speculated one of them, an extreme one, it's true. Even though you are all convinced Lizzie's guilt, I think it should be an interesting subject: if Lizzie was innocent, what was she really doing in the barn? This subject, in my opinion, deserves a discussion in the forum. So Please don't take my theory only by its apparence. I have been discussing the case with you always very seriously.)

Franz, we are not closed to other possibilities. Sometimes I lay in bed wondering "what if Morse did orchestrate it?" or "What if it were somebody who hated Mr. Borden?" We are not opposed to Morse as suspect. You misinterpret our 'arguing' as being closed-minded to your theory. IT ISN'T. It is being opposed to you pulling a word, phrase, or motive from 1892 Massachusetts USA culture, and running wild with it. You are very intelligent, and I believe Chinese is your first language. Culture in China, Italy, and the USA have differences now, and were even more different 100 years ago. We are very careful not to put too much emphasis on something said or done b/c the culture and words back then were different from today.

Your idea for example that a stranger would knock on a door, run down the steps stand on the sidewalk "as a sign of respect for the property" is absurd. In the USA, 100 years ago, and today, we are suspicious of any stranger who comes to our door. If we opened the door and the person was standing down on the sidewalk, our suspicion would be even greater. When strangers ring my bell I NEVER open the door more than 6 inches. In the culture and time of the murders, an elderly woman would NOT have been led away from the safety of her doorway. MAYBE the killer used some other ruse to get in, I'll admit that...But not what you are suggesting.

I've seen good arguments for Emma, Morse, strangers, and even an illegitimate son committing the murders...I've also seen ridiculous theories that were built on twisted ideas with no supporting evidence. It isn't WHO committed them as much as it is how well you present the facts.

[Miranda]

Franz, in my opinion Lizzie was never in the barn that morning. There is no evidence she was ever there. No footprints on a dusty floor says a lot. Also, since you are a man, maybe you don't understand that a woman wouldn't go to a filthy place for such a thing. She may have been doing whatever in her room, but not in a dirty place.

My belief in Lizzies guilt is not set in stone. Most of my life I believed there must have been someone else. Jumping rope as a child chanting "Lizzie Borden took an ax" made me look this up in the library. As a third-grader I couldn't wrap my mind around killing my family. I didn't do much more than that, she was found innocent, to my relief, so I didn't pursue it any further until adulthood.

Sometimes it is what it is, and no amount of tenacity will change the facts.

Hey Miranda, Lizzie could have been doing some other thing judged at that time scandalous, very scandalous for a woman of her social status.

And the no footprints evidence, if I recall corectly, is not reliable. And then, Lizzie could have been only on the first floor, but she lied to go up to the second to make up her searching something story (in order to cover what she was really doing).

I wish to read you more often.

In this case NONE of the evidence is reliable. That is why it is such a mystery. Law enforcement was inept. The prosecution was inept. The times were not amenable to hanging an "upper class" woman. Many things came together in a "perfect storm" of confusion.
If this had happened in our time, the house would have been sealed off immediately, and the police would have tossed the place like a tornado. Since they were so "delicate" about it, evidence was lost forever.
Lizzie lied about so many things. I believe she said she was in the barn to separate herself from the crime. She was never in the barn, she was busy bashing her daddy's brains out.