Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Something happened recently that hit a little close to home. It also made me realize again that murderers do not act with any sort of rational thinking behind their actions. My husband is a chef. One of the waitresses who used to work with him for a long time was murdered very recently. The people he worked with actually called my husband to tell him about it when her body was discovered. Her boyfriend had strangled her to death in their bed, according to his story slept with the body overnight, then wrapped it in several layers of garbage bags. He then put the body in the bedroom closet. According to his story her death happened during a "violent sexual encounter." She was reported missing and there were no leads. The body was discovered because her boyfriend was picked up for a charge of armed robbery, and they went to search his apartment. They found the body still wrapped in layers of garbage bags in the closet. This is one instance that shows that killers do not always think about making an alibi. They do not always think about hiding evidence or getting rid of it. Or care about sitting in the house with the body. It's a sad thing. A very sad thing. The body was sent to Charleston, W.V. for autopsy and the coroner said two of her neck bones were snapped.

This man killed her violently and made no attempts at even disposing of the body.

Wow: that IS a little too close to home. He had to have a screw loose to keep a dead body in his closet. It would have smelled, no? What is a 'violent sexual encounter" Were they into choking? I dated a guy once who told me he fantasized about choking me; I ran so fast in the other direction and then never spoke to him again.

You are right; murder is not rational. But there is a difference between killing someone in the heat of passion, on the spot, white hot rage coursing thru your bloodstream, or of planning it out carefully.

It is hard for me imagine Lizzie planning ahead of kill her father in such a grisly manner. And then going on to live the life of a quiet, genteel woman who loved animals and baked cookies for the kids down the street. Its the congruity between the woman we see and the act itself. They don't match up.

Allen, you are so right! Killers do not use rational thinking when involved in going through their actions of murder...

The following murder took place a little over a year ago in my neighborhood. In front of several witnesses, a man deliberately ran over his 2 year-old son with his Ford Explorer SUV, not once but twice!!!

This man had followed his ex-girlfriend, who had just returned from having lunch with her new boyfriend and her 2 year-old son, from the restaurant. The woman asked her new boyfriend to pull off the street into a parking lot in hopes that her ex-boyfriend would stop following them. Unfortunately, he was not about to be stopped. The ex-boyfriend followed the vehicle into the parking lot and stopped next to it. While everyone remained in their respective vehicles, the ex-boyfriend confronted the woman about her relationship with her new boyfriend. The woman told him that it was none of his business, and that it shouldn’t matter since they were no longer dating, The ex-boyfriend then told her, "You are all going to pay for it."

It appeared as though the ex-boyfriend was going to leave, since he backed his SUV forward the street. So, the woman and her son got out of her new boyfriend’s vehicle, and began walking toward their apartment, holding her son’s hand. As the 2 year-old boy was saying, "Pa, Pa, Pa, Pa," his father deliberately drove his vehicle toward the woman and child, hitting both of them and then hitting a rock wall with a force hard enough to deploy the Ford Explorer's airbags; the woman was thrown backwards, but the little boy died instantly. The boy’s father then put the vehicle in reverse, stopped, and then accelerated the vehicle forward and ran over his son again!

The ex-boyfriend, then got out of his vehicle, pulled out a knife and walked over to where the woman was lying and began to stab her, repeatedly, while yelling, "I'm going to kill you." Fortunately, she survived the puncture wounds to her neck, one of which just missed her carotid artery; she also had a deep cut on her head.

Meanwhile, the new boyfriend exited his vehicle, ran over to them, and tried to take the knife away, getting a deep cut in his hand. He tackled the ex-boyfriend to the ground and they fought. The new boyfriend was cut badly on his right hand and stabbed in the abdomen during the struggle but he was able to disarm the ex-boyfriend, and tossed the knife away. The new boyfriend then detained the ex-boyfriend until police arrived; several 911 calls were placed from neighbors who witnessed the accident. While waiting for police to arrive, the new boyfriend watched as the woman, who was crying, kneeled over the boy saying, "You killed our son, you killed our son."

The ex-boyfriend laughed at her and tauntingly said, "There's nothing you can do now, neither one of us are going to have him now. I told you, you would pay for it."

When police arrived, they found the two-year-old child pinned underneath the Ford Explorer's rear tire. The child was dead, with massive injuries to his head. The woman was on her knees next to the vehicle, crying; she had blood on her face and clothes.

While the ex-boyfriend continued to be restrained by the new boyfriend, a policeman heard the ex-boyfriend say, "I love her. She spend last night with him and I love her."

Aftermath: The ex-boyfriend was charged with first-degree intentional homicide for killing his son and three counts of attempted first-degree intentional homicide for trying to kill his ex-girlfriend, and her new boyfriend. The ex-boyfriend pleaded not guilty by reason of mental illness to killing his son, and trying to kill his ex-girlfriend and her boyfriend with a knife. Therefore he was found incompetent to stand trial. He was scheduled to stand trial, however, the trial was postponed while he received mental health treatment for up to a year, or until he is returned to competency. After hearing testimony by a psychologist from the mental health institute, where the ex-boyfriend was being treated for his alleged mental illness, the circuit judge ruled that he was feigning symptoms of mental illness, when no diagnosis of an actual mental illness could be made; the judge also ruled that no tests showed that the ex-boyfriend suffers from a major mental illness, that he exaggerated symptoms of mental illness and that Castillo-Dimas showed no behavior indicating he actually experienced what he claimed were visual and auditory hallucinations. The psychologist also said that upon meeting the ex-boyfriend to examine him, his effect was flat and he spoke in one-word sentences, while at all other times the mental health institute staff observed his mood as the complete opposite; he was cheerful and outgoing. The ex-boyfriend then claimed to suffer from memory deficits, but his performance on a test to measure those deficits showed them to be worse than a person who merely guessed at answers, indicating that he was feigning his memory problem. Hopefully this guy will be tried and convicted in 2014.

That has to be one of the most horrific and heart breaking things I've ever heard. I literally felt sick to my stomach thinking about that poor mother and her child. And angry. What they both went through. Even if the little boy was killed instantly was his last image his own father bearing down on him with an SUV? The mother's last image of her son is a bloody broken body. I hope that man gets everything that he deserves and more. I believe whether it's planned out, or done in the heat of passion, murder is not rational. A rational person would not contemplate it in the first place.

Not so sure about that.

Rational: Based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

I think there are definitely folks who think they have a good reason to kill someone. I think they use their own form of logic to reason it out. To you or I it might not seem rational, but it does to them.

Look at the mafia...they've been killing people for years, and they always have a reason, their own form of twisted logic for why they do what they do. Usually it's about money.

Look at honor killings in the Arab world. They are rationalized. Do you not agree?

I do not agree. The killer thinking it's rational doesn't mean to kill someone is a rational thing to do. Something actually being a rational act, and it being rationalized by the perpetrator, are two different things. It doesn't mean the person is a rational being because they can give themselves a reason to do something. Lizzie might have rationalized killing her parents by not wanting Abby to get money after Andrew died. That doesn't make it a truly rational or correct thing to do. Do you think it's logical to kill someone? Or reasonable? It's the equivalent of giving yourself a reason to do something truly awful. I could rob a bank and rationalize it as getting myself out of debt. I could kill my neighbor and rationalize it as being tired of hearing his loud music at night. It doesn't make it truly logical or reasonable for me to do so. Having your own form of logic indicates you are not rational enough to see what you are doing is wrong. People who are insane have their own form of logic. I wouldn't call them rational. It also doesn't mean that because you think about it ahead of time and plan it you are going to be anymore logical in planning it out than someone who does it spur of the moment. So many planned murders have been carried out without so much as a thought to a logical alibi. Or where to even dispose of evidence afterward.

Rationalized - To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for (one's behavior). To think about or describe something (such as bad behavior) in a way that explains it and makes it seem proper, more attractive, etc.

Allen wrote:That has to be one of the most horrific and heart breaking things I've ever heard. I literally felt sick to my stomach thinking about that poor mother and her child. And angry. What they both went through. Even if the little boy was killed instantly was his last image his own father bearing down on him with an SUV? The mother's last image of her son is a bloody broken body. I hope that man gets everything that he deserves and more. I believe whether it's planned out, or done in the heat of passion, murder is not rational. A rational person would not contemplate it in the first place.

I know what you mean, Allen. I am also sickened by this gut-wrenching incident; to this day, it tears my heart out to know that ‘baby boy’ was killed in such a manner by his father. A police officer said that the little boys head was split open, and his brain matter had spilled out onto the parking lot. To make matters worse, I have to drive pass the very spot where this little boy died when leaving from or returning to my home.

Yes, the last image that little boy saw was of his ‘Pa, Pa’ driving a ‘huge’ SUV directly at him. That little boy was completely defenseless; a 2-year old would not comprehend the danger he was in. Furthermore, I can’t imagine the horror that mother felt at seeing her child pinned under the wheel of a SUV, with it’s head spilt open.

Was the ex-boyfriend thinking and acting rationally? Absolutely not!!! The definition of ‘rational’ per the Merriam-Webster dictionary is: 1. based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings. 2. having the ability to reason or think about things clearly.

Obviously this ex-boyfriend allowed his jealousy to get out of control; he was NOT thinking and acting in a rational manner.

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I am a little confused as to how murder not being a rational act could disintegrate into a discussion about God, or right vs. wrong, or the ethics of humanity. I was stating that murder, a person who decides to willfully murder another, is not a rational act. Whether it's planned or in the heat of the moment. Unless it's in self defense. I'm a little confused by this last post in general to be honest so I'm not sure how to respond.

I am also confused. How can a discussion regarding the irrational behavior of a murderer turn into a discussion about God, right vs. wrong, the ethics of humanity, etc?

I didn't realize this was even in a different thread..."Stay to Tea" which is intended for off-topic discussions.

I'm withdrawing from this one, respectfully...next time I will pay closer attention; guess I'm still learning the subtleties of this forum.

It’s OK, NancyDrew – being human, we all make mistakes.

I had submitted my post, and then had to go out to do some Christmas shopping; while driving to my destination, I was wondering if you thought this topic was in the Lizzie Andrew Borden section of the forum.