Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I think many members of the forum have changed at least one time, radically, their idea about Lizzie’s innocence or guilt. Is there any element of the case especially significant to make such a change? This topic, in my opinion, could be interesting and could be somehow constructive for our discussion in general.

This is my case: I was more convinced for Lizzie’s guilt, but then changed my idea because of a relatively less important detail: the guest room door’s being open when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went there to search Abby. I wonder: if Lizzie did kill Abby in the guest room, even if Bridget rarely went to that part of the house, even if Abby’s body was difficult to be seen from outside if one didn’t search her intentionally, Lizzie should have more probably closed the door.

Certainly, if I consider the case from the point of view of a guiltist, I should admit that: 1. It was not impossible that Lizzie didn’t close the door. She simply didn’t. 2. It was not impossible that Lizzie might have closed the door after her first killing. And then, after having killed Andrew, she went upstairs and reopened that door, cleaned she up, hid her weapon, etc. before going to call Bridget: “Maggy…” Even though, I personally think more probable that the intruder killer waited Andrew’s return in the guest room, with its door closed (as Lizzie testified), and then, he went to kill him, leaving the door open behind him.

What is your reason for which you have changed your idea? Is there a precise one?

For forty plus years I have held to one opinion, that is Lizzies guilt. I believe she went upstairs and opened the door when she sent Bridget for help.

Do you Bobo, that is interesting. Why would she do that? Incidentally, I've always held the same opinion too, I'm afraid.

I believe Lizzie wanted Abbys body found asap. She simply made the search a little easier.

But wouldn't she have left the door open after she'd done the deed or at least just before she was standing on the stairs having a giggle when Bridget was struggling with the door? It seems to me that rushing upstairs after she'd sent Bridget off was a bit of a superfluous exercise. Much better to stand pale and wan near the side door straight away, hoping to catch the attention of a neighbour, which she did.

I believe she wouldn't want Abby found until AFTER Andrew was discovered. Remember, after killing Abby, she had one more murder to commit.

BOBO wrote:For forty plus years I have held to one opinion, that is Lizzies guilt. I believe she went upstairs and opened the door when she sent Bridget for help.

She couldn't have. Mrs Churchill was there nearly at once.

Lizzie is the only source of testimony we have as to the condition of that door. It could have been wide open all morning. Even after Abby was dead. No one else went 'upfront' but her.

That's quite true, Aa. We don't know why Bridget wasn't obliged to wash the upstairs windows inside and out. All we know is she never at any time had duties upstairs.

With Emma on holiday the only other person but Lizzie who would have to use the front stairs on that day was John Morse, and I am still not convinced that she knew that Uncle John was due to come home for a midday meal. When Andrew came home he swallowed the lie about the note and didn't bother to look around.

Aamartin wrote:

BOBO wrote:For forty plus years I have held to one opinion, that is Lizzies guilt. I believe she went upstairs and opened the door when she sent Bridget for help.

She couldn't have. Mrs Churchill was there nearly at once.

Key word..... "nearly".

BOBO wrote:

Aamartin wrote:

BOBO wrote:For forty plus years I have held to one opinion, that is Lizzies guilt. I believe she went upstairs and opened the door when she sent Bridget for help.

She couldn't have. Mrs Churchill was there nearly at once.

Key word..... "nearly".

She saw Bridget run across the street-- speak to Lizzie and rush off again. She saw Lizzie in the doorway and called out to her. Lizzie told her to come over. There is no doubt in my mind Lizzie did NOT leave that doorway once Bridget set out for Miss Russell's.

The bedroom door being open or closed is virtually immaterial. Any number of things could have caused it to be open, partially open, or closed. I wouldn't find someone innocent over an open door. What if Lizzie killed Abby, closed the door, than when Mr. Borden came home realized she had left the hatchet in the room with the body, went upstairs to get the hatchet, opened the door, came out and didn't re-close it b/c she was going to kill her father and raise the alarm anyway? She would have purposely left the door open at that point and no mystery about open or closed.

Nope.... Lizzie left the doorway when Bridget set out for Dr. Bowens.

PossumPie wrote:The bedroom door being open or closed is virtually immaterial. Any number of things could have caused it to be open, partially open, or closed. I wouldn't find someone innocent over an open door. What if Lizzie killed Abby, closed the door, than when Mr. Borden came home realized she had left the hatchet in the room with the body, went upstairs to get the hatchet, opened the door, came out and didn't re-close it b/c she was going to kill her father and raise the alarm anyway? She would have purposely left the door open at that point and no mystery about open or closed.

That is a good possibility

BOBO wrote:Nope.... Lizzie left the doorway when Bridget set out for Dr. Bowens.

Possibly.... But I still don't think so

Aamartin wrote:

PossumPie wrote:The bedroom door being open or closed is virtually immaterial. Any number of things could have caused it to be open, partially open, or closed. I wouldn't find someone innocent over an open door. What if Lizzie killed Abby, closed the door, than when Mr. Borden came home realized she had left the hatchet in the room with the body, went upstairs to get the hatchet, opened the door, came out and didn't re-close it b/c she was going to kill her father and raise the alarm anyway? She would have purposely left the door open at that point and no mystery about open or closed.

That is a good possibility

I agree. It's possible.

Anything is possible in this case! I do think, though, that it's more likely that she left the door open earlier, and also that the hatchet was already downstairs waiting for Andrew by the time he got home. It may have already been hidden in the dining room dresser.