Lizzie's pigeons?

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:00 pm

I have read a thread in the archive which mentioned whether or not Lizzie may have been upset over Andrew killing the pigeons in the barn. I think Lizzie enjoyed the pigeons and thought of them as pets. The fact that there was a pigeon house built at all, to my mind at least, supports this theory. I think it might have upset her a great deal, because she was known to love animals. For someone who loves animals, and to have left as much money to the rescue leagues as she did, someone such as this usually loves all animals. Not just the ones that are not normally considered a nuisance by others.But my real question is this...could this really have been the "last straw" for Lizzie. He killed her birds without thinking what they meant to her? He put the half house in Abby's name? What mind set might this have put Lizzie in when it came to her fathers affections? If she felt he favored Abby over Lizzie, in Lizzie's eyes at least, then maybe it was felt that after his death all might go to Abby?

4.To the animal rescue league of Fall River the sum of thirty thousand
dollars, also my shares of stock in the Stevens Manufactoring Company.I have been fond of animals and their need is great and there are so few who care for them.

27.Animal Rescue League, of Washington DC, the sum of two thousand dollars.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:25 pm

Maybe I should've just named this one Lizzie's will lol. Because I also wondered if the fact that Lizzie didn't leave Emma any money in her will seemed to anyone else to be a sort of...not sure how to term this...a share of the take mentality? Sort of like how bank robbers do after they rob a bank? They divide it up equally in, and then its a sort of you got yours and this is mine?

28. I have not given my sister, Emma L. Borden, anything as she had her share of father's estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:36 pm

The TV movie certainly made it clear that this was one of the reasons for the brutality of the crimes, with Andrew pushing Lizzie aside with his blood stained hands from decapitating the pigeons (and spoiling Lizzie's frock) and the scene when she leaves court sees her looking up to the sky at the pigeons flying above, rejoicing that they are free. Of course that's just the movie, how she reacted in real life is debatable, although we do know Lizzie was one to stew about things, and wasn't one to forgive (or forget) very easy, she quit calling Abby "Mother" because of the property (money) business, the fact that she called Abby "Mother" for so long from a very young age, for then to cut it off completely with such hatred, seeing innocent pigeons slaughtered must have had a huge impact on her, and the way Andrew and Abby were slaughtered does make it seem that there could be a connection to those poor decapitated pigeons.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:13 pm

Lizzie didn't see the birds killed, as far as we know. She saw some in the house with the heads off. If they were in the house, they might have been for dinner. Maybe that is when Lizzie stopped eating with the elder Bordens?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:57 am

Kat @ Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:13 am wrote: She saw some in the house with the heads off.

Kat where did you read that? I can't seem to find it

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:59 am

The pigeon information can be found in Lizzie's Inquest testimony (page 82):

"Q. Can you tell of any killing of an animal? or any other operation that would lead to their being cast there, with blood on them?
A. No sir, he killed some pigeons in the barn last May or June.
Q. What with?
A. I don't know, but I thought he wrung their necks.
Q. What made you think so?
A. I think he said so.
Q. Did anything else make you think so?
A. All but three or four had their heads on, that is what made me think so.
Q. Did all of them come into the house?
A. I think so.
Q. Those that came into the house were all headless?
A. Two or three had them on.
Q. Were any with their heads off?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Cut off or twisted off?
A. I don't know which.
Q. How did they look?
A. I don't know, their heads were gone, that is all.
Q. Did you tell anybody they looked as though they were twisted off?
A. I don't remember whether I did or not. The skin I think was very tender, I said why are these heads off? I think I remember of telling somebody that he said they twisted off.
Q. Did they look as if they were cut off?
A. I don't know, I did not look at that particularly. "

Lizzie's attitude does not appear to express any concern for the pigeons. If these had been pets I would have expected some. It certainly contrasts with her love for animals later in her life.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:26 am

Thanks Harry, now I remember reading it. It does come across like she wasn't particuarly bothered, but the trouble with all of the written material we have of her speaking is it doesn't indicate what tone she spoke in, it just writes down the words, when you read it it does sound cold, but on the other hand her eyes may have been swelling up with tears or she may have hesitated before speaking (or would this have been noted?), and I guess, if she wasn't the killer, after seeing her father hacked to death the memory of those long ago dead Pigeons may have seemed tame, what were they on the table for anyway, did they eat them? or did Andrew sell them to his neighbours

thanks for the post it's given me lots to think about.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:33 am

It would have been particularly cruel to prepare the birds for a meal....

Lizzie was not a farm girl who was accustomed to "bonding" with pets and animals only to eat them later.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:44 am

The pigeons were prepared for a meal because that is most likely what they had been raised for. Pigeons, especially if they had a house for them, and rabbits being raised in backyards for food was no different from having chickens, ducks or geese back there.

Today we don't often see such animals in our neighborhoods unless they are pets, but is was a common, everyday part of life for folks one hundred years ago.

You'll still see it a lot today in Fall River and New Bedford where the Portuguese people keep lots of livestock, including cute white bunnies, in their yards.

Also, regarding humane societies, Animal Rescue Leagues and the ASPCA, etc. These and related animal protection groups were formed around the country in the second half of the 19th century primarily to prevent mistreatment of working horses (farm, teamster, trolley, etc.) and to provide for stray dogs and cats. Some had farms to house old horses and stray dogs and cats.

I don't think that most folks gave a second thought to animals generally raised to be slaughtered for food.

They wore sealskin, too.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:18 am

I cant agree whether they were for dinner or not, because there is no record of that, or any testimony that supports it.We can only speculate. IMO I dont believe the fact that she didnt show any concern or emotion over the killing of the pigeons proves that she was not indeed upset about it, because she did not show any emotion over the murders either. Whether she did or did not commit them, whichever you believe,
she was too calm afterward.I think there is some testimony somewhere, havent found it yet, but am still checking it that out, that says that Lizzie was prone to not displaying her emotion or feelings in public settings.Does anyone else know where I might find it?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:29 am

Allen @ Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:18 pm wrote:I think there is some testimony somewhere, havent found it yet, but am still checking it that out, that says that Lizzie was prone to not displaying her emotion or feelings in public settings.Does anyone else know where I might find it?

The TV movie has her saying this, isn't it when she is being interviewd in her cell? not sure if it's factual, but I think the film stuck to that article, pretty much, i'll have to go check.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:57 am

Don't know how how helpful this is, but a word search of the trial transcript (Volume 1) indicates that "pigeons" were referred to or discussed in two places, at pg. 54 in William Moody's opening, and pg. 378, in Alice Russell's testimony. It does not appear at all in Volume 2.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:04 pm

Allen @ Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:18 am wrote:I cant agree whether they were for dinner or not, because there is no record of that, or any testimony that supports it.

True, but if one types PIGEON RECIPES into Google, one get about 170,000 listings. And that's today.

We brought about the extinction of the Passenger Pigeon by the early 1800s. In colonial days they skies were darkened as flocks of millions of passenger pigeons flew overhead. During much of the 1700s pigeon was far more popular than chicken.

If there was a pigeon coop in the barn and Andrew brought the dead birds into the kitchen, they were for food. Notice in the testimony quoted about that no one is startled by the fact that Andrew brought dead pigeons into the kitchen. There was no question at all about it. Because that was far to common for anyone to question. The entire thrust of the pigeon testimony and whether their necks were chopped or wrung, was about the possibility of blood being on hatchets.

"Can you tell of any killing of an animal? or any other operation that would lead to their being cast there, with blood on them? "

The question is about animal blood. Period. And that's how Lizzie answered it.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:42 pm

Well there are also 97,600 hits for rabbit recipes, but I know if I was to kill one of ours and cook one up, my children would never forgive me.I realize attitudes may have been a little different back then,but to speak about the food eaten by a family in any time period could only be a generality according to the tastes of that time.People could look back 100 years from now and say everyone ate fast food or everyone was a vegetarian, but neither would be true

And just as an interesting aside I'll post this link

http://www.fbipigeons.com/pigeon_facts.htm

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:01 pm

I have eaten pigeon... But it was called Squab and was prepared in a restaurant in Paris!

I stopped eating them when I saw one on the street eating cigarette butts...

As per fur... well... Ummmm... I have a coat.. (ducks).... Much to the dismay of my 16 year old son who is a Vegetarian moving quickly toward Vegan...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:15 pm

I'd be interested to know what it tastes like. I've heard of squab because my husband is a cook and has prepared it where he works, but I have never tasted it myself.Is it true it tastes alot like chicken?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:19 pm

So what was the deal in that house? they kept pigeons for what purpous? did one get slaughtered now and then for dinner? and Andrew killed them on mass because some boys kept trying to steal them, mmmm bit of an extreme thing to do, dead pigeons or stolen pigeons either way there gone! (although i'm sure Miser Andrew profited from them) I can almost feel Lizzie fuming inside! and like you said Allen, they were thought enough of for a pigeon house to be built, at least that tells us that they were treated with respect on somebodys part (Lizzie?) i've never eaten pigeon, the ones in London are so manky

i'd rather wolf down a fluffy tailed squirrel

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:33 pm

I looked around for sources of the pigeon ownership and the only place I could find anything is from the authors. Lincoln (natch), Brown, Hixon and Sams say Lizzie but I can find no verification of that and I am highly cynical when it comes to the authors as a sole source of anything.

I did find this amusing paragraph in Angela Carter's "The Fall River Axe Murders" (p253). Batten the hatches, there's a LOT of wind in this paragraph.

"She [Lizzie] is a girl of Sargasso calm. She used to keep her pigeons in the loft above the disused stable and feed them grain out of the palms of her cupped hands. She liked to feel the soft scratch of their little beaks. They murmured "vroo croo" with infinite tenderness. She changed their water every day and cleaned up their leprous messes but Old Borden took a dislike to their cooing, it got on his nerves-who'd have thought he had any nerves? But he invented some, they got on them, and one afternoon he took out the hatchet from the wood-pile in the cellar and chopped the pigeons' heads off.
Abby fancied the slaughtered pigeons for a pie but Bridget the servant girl put her foot down, at that; What Make a pie out of Miss Lizzie's beloved turtledoves? Jesus Mary and Joseph!!! she exclaimed with characteristic impetuousness; what can they be thinking of! Miss Lizzie so nervy with her funny turns and all! (The maid is the only one in the house with any sense and that's the truth of it.) Lizzie came home from the Fruit and Flowers Mission where she had been reading a tract to an old woman in a poorhouse: "God bless you, Miss Lizzie." At home all was blood and feathers.
She doesn't weep, this one, it isn't her nature, she is still waters, but, when moved, she changes colour, her face flushes, it goes dark, angry, mottled red, marbling up like the marbling on the inner covers of the family Bible. The old man loves his daughter this side of idolatry and pays for everything she wants but all the same he killed her pigeons when his wife wanted to gobble them up."

The Saragasso is a portion of the Atlantic ocean known for its calmness.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:45 pm

I could certainly understand Lizzie being upset about the pigeons being killed. When I was about 11 or 12, my father made me go hunting with him. Now I do not believe in hunting, and I do not like guns. I can remember going dove hunting, and how much it bothered me. The dogs would retrieve the doves when they fell to the ground, and I had to place them in the pockets of my vest. When we returned home, the doves were given to my mother for cleaning. One of the doves was still alive in my pocket, slowly bleeding and dying a slow death. I was horrified, and I told my mother I would NOT eat them. She prepared them for my father, but my sisters and I could not eat them. I NEVER went hunting again. So, as an animal lover myself, Lizzie very well could have had some pent up resentment towards her father for killing them. I know I did!!!!!!!!

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:53 pm

Harry, the Angela Carter story is great, she wrote 2 stories/poems didn't she? I have photo copies of em' somewhere, I remember years ago that Penguin bought out a miniture book of Angela Carter's "Lizzie Borden" it had Lizzie on the cover, but you could only buy them in a box set of about 5 or 10 others, I saw them in the window of a local bookshop, went in and couldn't find them, so I went to the window and picked up the single copy of "Lizzie" that was displayed went to the counter and the jobs worthy wouldn't sell it to me, I never did see it again, wish i'd bought the bleedin' box now!

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:04 pm

Smudgeman, I can see how that would have distressed you, I wouldn't have eaten the thing either. I remember my old grandad had a live eel in the bath, me and my sister thought it was a pet and just as we were getting aquanted, swoosh, chop, eel is headless then chopped somemore and boiled and eaten, I can't eat eels to this day, i'm still getting over my pet cat dying (and that was 5 years ago) but some regard animals like others regard insects, I guess it's a bit hypocritical of me cos I do eat meat, but if I had to go hunt and slaughter an animal I don't think I could. But animals as meat are more disguised these days, I remember when as a child I lived in the east end and all the butchers had full Rabbits, chickens, pigs heads etc in the window, you'd go in and ask for a rabbits foot for luck or chickens claw to scratch someone

you don't really see so much of that now, most kids wouldn't even associate Bacon/ham etc with pigs, oh er i've gone right off the subject, but Lizzie ate meat didn't she? were there many vegerterians in her day?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:44 pm

We have a brother who has always raised racing pigeons. He has culled the flock repeatedly in 30 years.
He's also fed, watered, and exercised them to the point of almost his family doing without.
He loved his pigeons but did wring necks, or flick necks- whatever- he described it to me. It's almost a ritual- because he hates doing it but it's necessary. I don't think he ever ate them tho. He never said he ate them.

I don't know if the Borden birds came into the kitchen. It's only said they came into the house. My surmise was for dinner.

Here is a link to the web-site/Resources with Angela Carter's essay. At the bottom: "Essays On The Borden Murders." well, one version: She has an "American" version and a"British" one.
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... ources.htm

camgarsky4 · Post by **camgarsky4** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:49 pm

MB (or anyone else), I have interpreted the "May or June" referenced by Lizzie at the inquest (quote below) as meaning the most recent May/June.....in other words, in 1892, 2-3 months prior to murders. But Parallel Lives (pg 438) interprets the event as happening May/June, 1891.

What is the general consensus....1891 or '92?

The pigeon information can be found in Lizzie's Inquest testimony (page 82):
"Q. Can you tell of any killing of an animal? or any other operation that would lead to their being cast there, with blood on them?
A. No sir, he killed some pigeons in the barn last May or June.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:13 pm

It has always been assumed that she meant the year previous and not the past May or June.

I believe the inquest was held close to the first week of August, just after the murders, so May and June was only a couple of mouths preceding. You would think that she would say, "this past May or June, or spring. And that she would remember if it was May or June, since it was not so long ago. The way she worded it appeared to imply it was a while back, also taking into consideration that she couldn't remember the exact month. So I would agree with Parallel Lives, that the pigeon slaughter was the year previous.

As Harry eluded to above, they were not Lizzie's pigeons or pets. A lot has been made about it in earlier writings and canards. The reason Borden did in the pigeons was because he felt kids were breaking into the garage to get at them, which is something I also did when I was a child. (There was an old barn across the street where I lived less than a block from the old Weybosset house. Along its peak was an old broken window. Stray pigeons use to roost there.)

This is not to say that Borden did not raise pigeons? He probably did. He appears the sort of fellow who would. Squab or young pigeon was a staple on any French dinner table. Also along with British and early American diets. It is only realistic to think Borden ate pigeon and the reason why he brought them into the house.

Borden probably cut the birds heads off with something sharp. Perhaps a pocket knife or other sharp tool. The police, of course, were interested in having Lizzie admit that she knew about an axe. I'm not certain Borden would have pulled the heads off. Too messy. Wringing their necks had more to do with killing them by breaking their necks. My old Mom use to tell me stories about it when she was a girl. She said she would tuck the chicken's body under her arm, grab it's head between her index and middle finger, twist and pull. Humane way to kill a bird before plucking and preparing it for the table. She was a religious woman who loved animals. And in her retiring years when she went to church she would light a candle for the birds she killed. As a teenager I found her behavior bewildering if not hilarious. Later I had a pet pigeon of my own and came to understand it.

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Lizzie's pigeons?

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Re: Lizzie's pigeons?