Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Okay, maybe someone can help me out with this:

In today's time, we know that based on what one eats, it generally takes 7-14 hours to digest. However, I know there has been talk regarding Andrew's and Abby's state of digestion. As far as I know, there isn't any details on what each of them ate (we do have a list of what was on the table that morning) and given that they both were sick Tuesday night and possibly Wednesday, it appears that Andrew didn't eat much at breakfast or maybe he ate more liquids (I think liquids digest faster anyway). It appears that Abby either had a big breakfast Thursday.

In the trial notes, we see that Dr. Draper says "...In the case of Mrs. Borden the small intestine showed food in the process of digestion, and I saw two small fragments of fruit skins, either pear or apple. The large intestine was empty." Would it be possible that if it takes roughly 7-14 hours to digest, the fruit skins were from Wednesday and perhaps she ate more Wednesday, after being sick. It could also account for her going to the doc across the street Wednesday to complain of stomach pains.

Think how you feel once you've been sick and don't feel like eating but as you recover, you find yourself really hungry and perhaps over eat a bit.

I don't see how they could use digestion as one of the three things to help place the time of death.

Interesting! Well, Abby was very fond of cream cakes and 'baker's bread', presumably when she couldn't be bothered to make her own.She was over 200lbs in weight.

Nevertheless, she and Andrew were elderly, and after they had dodgy fish on Tuesday evening I don't believe they recovered their appetite the next day. They had vomited all night, so loudly that Lizzie had asked through their locked door if there was anything she could do.

I believe they had consumed pork cutlets for breakfast on Tuesday. On Thursday morning for breakfast, they and Uncle John repeated the meal of the night before, the mutton broth, plus molasses cookies and johnny cakes. Yeah, delicious!

Like most Americans in the 19th century the Bordens' diet was heavily meat-based. I'm not a dietician but I believe that meat would hang about in the gut longer than many other foodstuffs. However, as we know, the elderly couple had had a good clear-out on Tuesday night, so anything still in their digestive tracts would presumably have been consumed the night before and for Thursday's breakfast.

Maybe both of them didn't eat and drink anything much beyond cups of coffee, fruit (there was a bowl of fruit including bananas on the table, according to John Morse.) However, in his testimony, John stated that the three of them 'partook' of breakfast. That sounds to me like they all had a little mutton broth, fried johnny cakes etc. Perhaps the amounts Abby and Andrew had were minuscule and they both gnawed on a couple of pears to finish off?

Digestion is a complex process of several stages. Food enters the stomach and is mixed with Hydrochloric Acid. MOST digestion and absorption of nutrients occurs right after the food leaves the stomach, in the Duodenum or first small section of the intestines. There Pancreatic juices break it down for absorption. There are many things that can effect the speed of the food through the digestive tract, not least among them if the food was somewhat spoiled. It then is sped through quickly, hence water absorption doesn't occur, and diarrhea is the result. As we all know, some bits of food are never really broken down, and go through pretty much intact. skins of some fruits/veggies, like apple peal, corn, some legumes. To answer Curryong, no one type of food 'hangs out' longer than any other, they all go through together. There is a fairly linear formula that says about 2 1/2 hours after ingestion, half the food is emptied out of the stomach into the duodenum. They could have gotten a fairly accurate estimate of how long from ingestion of breakfast to death for Abby. It was almost right after ingestion, and most food was still partially digested in the stomach. Food poisoning from earlier in the day would have only SPED UP the gastric emptying, making any time frame shorter...not longer.

Thanks guys!

Some interesting points about digestion from PossumPie.

I would think modern food preservatives and additives change how our bodies digest food, so modern day science may not be applicable here. Likewise, illness in the house and vomiting. Ever eaten something and (too) soon thereafter felt a rumble?

Very often, Anthony!

However, remember, Abby was eating baker's bread and cream buns from a commercial bakery. There was a lot of adulterated food plus unhygenic retail premises in the 19th century, flies over everything, non-refrigeration, unpasteurised milk etc. The fish Andrew and Abby ate on the Tuesday night was seriously 'off,' in my opinion, perhaps kept on a slab that was dirty or the ice it was packed in was contaminated, or maybe the fish was simply just old.

I'm watching "Solved: Extreme Forensics" and the case was June, 1959. An interesting point- the ME used stomach contents mainly in giving a time of the murder. However, he's since died and they used the best gastrointologist in the country to come and look at the case. He said that no one should ever use the stomach contents to determine the time of death. He said it's a bad thing to do because of circumstances that can cause the stomach to empty out faster or slower.

Modern forensics got the guy they said was guilty off but it was the bugs in this case. I wonder if they even thought to look for bugs with the Borden case?

I don't think it was purely the stomach contents alone that caused the doctors at the time to give a window of 9:30 am to 10am for Abby's murder. (Abby's was the one which called for estimations rather than Andrew's as Bridget and Lizzie had seen Andrew alive shortly before his demise.)

They were also looking for poison in the stomach contents, of course, because of all the talk about poison the day before the killings. I think the doctors knew about bugs causing gastro. I believe with Abby it was a combination of the quality of the blood when she was found (dried and blackening) when rigor mortis set in (later) and the stomach contents, digestive process.

Curryong wrote:I don't think it was purely the stomach contents alone that caused the doctors at the time to give a window of 9:30 am to 10am for Abby's murder. (Abby's was the one which called for estimations rather than Andrew's as Bridget and Lizzie had seen Andrew alive shortly before his demise.)

They were also looking for poison in the stomach contents, of course, because of all the talk about poison the day before the killings. I think the doctors knew about bugs causing gastro. I believe with Abby it was a combination of the quality of the blood when she was found (dried and blackening) when rigor mortis set in (later) and the stomach contents, digestive process.

Of course there's nothing greatly implausible in speculating that she may have regurgitated the breakfast she ate with Andrew, and eaten again later... and rigor is notoriously unreliable in hot rooms, and with obese bodies too IIRC.

It is actually fortunate that we know so closely when Andrew was last alive; at least we don't have to get into wondering whether he could have been mildly haemophiliac and his blood late in clotting...

Lots of things can influence speed of digestion. For example a meal with a high fat content will digest a little slower. Some people have something called a "dumping stomach" where food exits the stomach too fast. We also don't know exactly Abby's personal habits. Maybe she chowed down with the family for breakfast or maybe she nibbled other foods between the sit down meal and her death. At any rate we aren't dealing with a huge amount of time even between breakfast to which Uncle John can witness, and Andrew's death by which time Abby certainly had to be dead.

I can imagine Andrew having an extremely fast metabolism and getting rid of his food quickly. Abby saw Phoebe Bowen on the Wednesday night and said she was feeling better, so she would have eaten some breakfast. As she was bustling about with a duster and worrying about pillow slips and dirty windows I don't think Abby was nauseous on the Thursday morning. It was poor old Andrew who was still feeling a bit seedy.

Curryong wrote:I don't think Abby was nauseous on the Thursday morning.

Nor do I.

But I don't entirely discount the possibility that she had a relapse, or even that something else in their horrible diet nailed her anew. I don't see why the 90 minutes can't be cut in half or more-- if everything else is falling in place. It is a good estimate, but like any other estimate it is dependent on facts which may have wiggle room.

Curryong wrote:I can imagine Andrew having an extremely fast metabolism and getting rid of his food quickly. Abby saw Phoebe Bowen on the Wednesday night and said she was feeling better, so she would have eaten some breakfast. As she was bustling about with a duster and worrying about pillow slips and dirty windows I don't think Abby was nauseous on the Thursday morning. It was poor old Andrew who was still feeling a bit seedy.

Curry, I've always felt it was pretty likely that Abby was sick. Bridget did say Abby was throwing up the night before, right? Then they served Le'olde sheep ala roadkill...then she's bouncing around a hot room.

Masterson also speculates that, at 5'3" and two bills, she was probably a between meal snacker.

The thing (if I have to pick one) would be the blood coagulating around her, but I have also heard that can vary wildly. And I read that there was something odd with Andrews blood for long after the authorities arrived...it stayed liquidy? Anyone remember this? I'm probably remembering Masterson again.

Abby and Andrew were vomiting in their bedroom on the Tuesday night, so badly that Lizzie heard and inquired through the blocked up door as to whether there was anything she could do. Andrew said "No", but of course he felt seedy even on the Thursday morning when he was out.

According to Morse Andrew was lying on the couch when he arrived from out of town on the Wednesday afternoon, though he perked up enough to have long conversations with John on the Wednesday afternoon and evening. Andrew, Abby and John were all sitting in the twilight together chatting when Lizzie came back from Alice's that evening.

Abby felt unwell on the Wednesday morning, early, and went over to Dr Bowen's complaining about poison, ref the baker's bread, as Dr Bowen said no-one else in town had been ill from it. That was in his testimony, also that he sent her home with castor oil. His wife Phoebe Bowen, a friend of Abby's, saw her on the Wednesday evening and Abby told her she was feeling better and they were both on the mend. Abby and Andrew had breakfast with John Morse on Thursday morning (and Bridget washed their dishes so they both must have eaten something) and Abby at least wouldn't have eaten if she was feeling nauseous.

Curryong wrote:Abby and Andrew were vomiting in their bedroom on the Tuesday night, so badly that Lizzie heard and inquired through the blocked up door as to whether there was anything she could do. Andrew said "No", but of course he felt seedy even on the Thursday morning when he was out.

According to Morse Andrew was lying on the couch when he arrived from out of town on the Wednesday afternoon, though he perked up enough to have long conversations with John on the Wednesday afternoon and evening. Andrew, Abby and John were all sitting in the twilight together chatting when Lizzie came back from Alice's that evening.

Abby felt unwell on the Wednesday morning, early, and went over to Dr Bowen's complaining about poison, ref the baker's bread, as Dr Bowen said no-one else in town had been ill from it. That was in his testimony, also that he sent her home with castor oil. His wife Phoebe Bowen, a friend of Abby's, saw her on the Wednesday evening and Abby told her she was feeling better and they were both on the mend. Abby and Andrew had breakfast with John Morse on Thursday morning (and Bridget washed their dishes so they both must have eaten something) and Abby at least wouldn't have eaten if she was feeling nauseous.

Thanks for the background.

I guess my thought here has always been along the lines of when they swapped "global warming" for "global change"? :-) However you look at it, there digestive systems were not normal during that week. They were different than usual, and may well have been different than each other at a given point (like Thursday AM, for instance).

I know after a period of vomiting or the flu I feel a "bounce-back" need for feed...maybe your body calling for fuel and minerals and whatever. So, Abby tucking in again to what the hobbites call "second breakfasteses" and Andrew's stomach going a little faster with his long walk...I dunno.

I think Masterson frames the issue pretty well in that the times could be much closer.

And, Curry, I know the timing counts for some scenarios, but again and again people say the axe murderer couldn't have hid and waited for an hour or ninety minutes. Why? You have to factor in the only variable we have -- lunacy. That might have been the happiest 90 minutes of his life. Maybe he lay there in placid happiness besides Abby and gave her little butterfly kisses and called her gramma.

This was a murderer who suffered from lunacy yet heard Lizzie moving about in her room at various times that morning but decided to spare her? Those rooms were so close together that you could probably have heard a pin drop if you were in the other room. Lizzie was a remarkably lucky young woman then.

Have you read other books on the murders besides Masterson's to give an opposite or more rounded view?