The 2 faces of Lizzie

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:26 pm

I always had problems reconciling Lizzie the hatchet wielder and the sweet old lady people reported her to be in later years....

Could someone commit such a brutal crime and then go on to live a genteel life? Loving animals and being generous to friends and servants?

Then I remember the letter about the bird-- she wanted a nest moved. No bird would return to a moved nest. I would never even consider knocking down or moving a nest on my own property, even if early morning chirping annoyed me.

Lizzie was in her 30's when the murder took place-- but I think she was a lot more like a very young adult or someone sheltered -- in their early 20's.

I was somewhat sheltered-- I grew up with privilege-- and my father was the polar opposite of Andrew Borden. He liked to spend money to make himself, his family and others happy. Which is why we don't have an old money fortune today! His grandfather was the same way-- an inventor. Made a lot of money, had a lot of patents-- some of which we still benefit from-- but nothing like it could have been. He was the first man in his small town in Minnesota to buy a car-- and everyone came over to see it, ride in it and even drive it. Someone asked to drive it-- he said yes-- and the man and car was never seen again!

I was very different in my 20's than I am now. Thought a lot more about what I wanted and getting it-- working and moving up career wise. Big powerful cars, expensive clothes, etc...

Now, at 49-- I drive a Hybrid and have a peace sign tattoo on my hand. A lot of my clothes come from Goodwill... My kids say I am a 'Hipster'.

So-- now that I am older-- I CAN reconcile the psychopath who (may have) killed her father and step mother and the sweet little old lady who loved books, animals, etc.

She got what she wanted -- so no more need to be so hateful. Yet, small signs still hung on-- shoplifting, etc.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Could we say, Anthony, that the younger Lizzie, having gotten rid of the main cause of annoyance in her life, Abby, was able to morph into the refined old lady, in peace?

Stepmother an annoyance and obstacle to a better life? Gone, along with Andrew. "Well, killing father was a great pity and it grieved me to have to do it, but....". Might her thought processes have run in that direction? Bird an annoyance? Must have its nest removed, it's disturbing me! Check! It's gone!
Peace again.

Wasn't there some story of Lizzie in her old age suddenly flying into a temper with a workman at Maplecroft, and the sight of her in a rage so frightened him that he left? Or is that one of Victoria Lincoln's imaginary pieces, or an urban legend? Sullivan's book has the tale of a murdered cat, but I don't know if I believe that.

I do think that Lizzie loved animals, if only so long as they fitted in with her arrangements. She was kind to her servants, it's said. They did what she asked. If they hadn't she would have dismissed them from her life. Just as she had, in a more violent way, two other inconveniences long before!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:37 pm

Aamartin wrote: He was the first man in his small town in Minnesota to buy a car-- and everyone came over to see it, ride in it and even drive it. Someone asked to drive it-- he said yes-- and the man and car was never seen again!

This disappearing car story is one of the funniest things I've ever read...unsure what that says about me.

Four percent of the population are estimated to be psychopaths. Most of them are not ax murderers (I just read a book about Villisca) or parricides. Some of them are evangelists and presidents and CEOs. I'd love to have seen Steve Jobs' Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Plus all of us present on a continuum....And people do change. Most personality disorders mellow with age...or they end up incarcerated where no more damage can be done.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:56 am

debbiediablo wrote:
Aamartin wrote: He was the first man in his small town in Minnesota to buy a car-- and everyone came over to see it, ride in it and even drive it. Someone asked to drive it-- he said yes-- and the man and car was never seen again!
This disappearing car story is one of the funniest things I've ever read...unsure what that says about me.

Four percent of the population are estimated to be psychopaths. Most of them are not ax murderers (I just read a book about Villisca) or parricides. Some of them are evangelists and presidents and CEOs. I'd love to have seen Steve Jobs' Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Plus all of us present on a continuum....And people do change. Most personality disorders mellow with age...or they end up incarcerated where no more damage can be done.

Just to be clear, Lizzie may have been a SOCIOpath not a PSYCHOpath. Psycho comes from latin "mind" so Psychology-the study of the mind. Psychopath is any abnormal condition of the mind. Socio comes from latin "social or society" Sociopath is someone who has no empathy to others, who only cares about themselves. A sociopath can be charming, pleasant, and intelligent. To get what they want, they will do anything, even kill.

Sorry, my degree in psyc. slipped out!!!

irina · Post by **irina** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:55 am

I solved one mystery~~why some things don't post. I wrote a thoughtful comment here last night and the screen kind of flashed when I submitted. Going back to the main panel I noted that Curryong had posted~at the EXACT SAME TIME. Australia wins! My comment got axed, so to speak.

So, like I said last night there have been people who committed horrendous murders, went on to live normal lives and were only caught years later by cold case squads. One or two of these people even became ministers. Some of the crimes had been committed under influence of drugs or alcohol, most apparently had not. In Lizzie's case I think we can rule out alcohol though we don't know what kind of patent medicines she might have used.

It has been said, but of course I would defer to Possum on this, that frequently women who kill have a form of amnesia that blocks out the act because it is so repellant, so not a part of what the woman sees herself as being.

I still don't think Lizzie did it. I look not just at her life afterward but the fact she had some friends, including family members. There is a general feeling that the community thought she knew about the murders, covered for someone, but didn't do it. I do not accept the idea that a woman like Grace Hartley Howe was friends with Lizzie in order to inherit. I believe if everyone thought Lizzie committed double parricide with a hatchet for pure greed, that they would have done worse than ostracize her. I think they would have found some way to run her out of town.

I also question the so-called shoplifting episode since it appears there was also an attempt to blackmail Lizzie over the incident. Therefore I must consider if this was a set-up.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:11 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
Aamartin wrote: He was the first man in his small town in Minnesota to buy a car-- and everyone came over to see it, ride in it and even drive it. Someone asked to drive it-- he said yes-- and the man and car was never seen again!
This disappearing car story is one of the funniest things I've ever read...unsure what that says about me.

Four percent of the population are estimated to be psychopaths. Most of them are not ax murderers (I just read a book about Villisca) or parricides. Some of them are evangelists and presidents and CEOs. I'd love to have seen Steve Jobs' Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Plus all of us present on a continuum....And people do change. Most personality disorders mellow with age...or they end up incarcerated where no more damage can be done.

It's still an old family joke-- if someone needs to borrow a car from most any of us-- we mention it and laugh. Poor G-grandpa... No APB's, etc back then!

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:20 pm

PossumPie wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:
Aamartin wrote: He was the first man in his small town in Minnesota to buy a car-- and everyone came over to see it, ride in it and even drive it. Someone asked to drive it-- he said yes-- and the man and car was never seen again!
This disappearing car story is one of the funniest things I've ever read...unsure what that says about me.

Four percent of the population are estimated to be psychopaths. Most of them are not ax murderers (I just read a book about Villisca) or parricides. Some of them are evangelists and presidents and CEOs. I'd love to have seen Steve Jobs' Hare Psychopathy Checklist. Plus all of us present on a continuum....And people do change. Most personality disorders mellow with age...or they end up incarcerated where no more damage can be done.
Just to be clear, Lizzie may have been a SOCIOpath not a PSYCHOpath. Psycho comes from latin "mind" so Psychology-the study of the mind. Psychopath is any abnormal condition of the mind. Socio comes from latin "social or society" Sociopath is someone who has no empathy to others, who only cares about themselves. A sociopath can be charming, pleasant, and intelligent. To get what they want, they will do anything, even kill.

Sorry, my degree in psyc. slipped out!!!

Sociopath is over diagnosed IMO. But I do believe Lizzie was more than likely one. But I think it coupled with something more profound... Bipolar has been thrown around a lot-- but I don't think that fits what we know about Lizzie. No one has ever talked about her being particularly depressive or down.... She herself said 'I don't do things in a hurry' -- which isn't really depressive, but far from manic.

However-- there are psychopathic traits in Lizzie, and while forensic psychology is not my specialty-- this article is very interesting. http://www.childadolescentbehavior.com/ ... -case.aspx

In fact-- there are some areas I would probably give her a point in that they didn't!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:04 pm

What a really interesting article, Anthony. Thanks for finding and posting that!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:20 pm

From Psychology Today, How To Tell a Sociopath From a Psychopath:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wic ... psychopath

How to Tell a Sociopath from a Psychopath
Understanding important distinctions between criminal sociopaths and psychopaths

Published on January 22, 2014 by Scott A. Bonn, Ph.D. in Wicked Deeds

Many forensic psychologists and criminologists use the terms sociopathy and psychopathy interchangeably. Leading experts disagree on whether there are meaningful differences between the two conditions. I contend that there are significant distinctions between them.

The fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), released by the American Psychiatric Association in 2013, lists both sociopathy and psychopathy under the heading of Antisocial Personality Disorders (ASPD). These disorders share many common behavioral traits which lead to the confusion between them. Key traits that sociopaths and psychopaths share include:

• A disregard for laws and social mores
• A disregard for the rights of others
• A failure to feel remorse or guilt
• A tendency to display violent behavior

In addition to their commonalities, sociopaths and psychopaths also have their own unique behavioral characteristics as well.

Sociopaths tend to be nervous and easily agitated. They are volatile and prone to emotional outbursts, including fits of rage. They are likely to be uneducated and live on the fringes of society, unable to hold down a steady job or stay in one place for very long. It is difficult but not impossible for sociopaths to form attachments with others. Many sociopaths are able to form an attachment to a particular individual or group, although they have no regard for society in general or its rules. In the eyes of others, sociopaths will appear to be very disturbed. Any crimes committed by a sociopath, including murder, will tend to be haphazard and spontaneous rather than planned.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, are unable to form emotional attachments or feel real empathy with others, although they often have disarming or even charming personalities. Psychopaths are very manipulative and can easily gain people’s trust. They learn to mimic emotions, despite their inability to actually feel them, and will appear normal to unsuspecting people. Psychopaths are often well educated and hold steady jobs. Some are so good at manipulation and mimicry that they have families and other long-term relationships without those around them ever suspecting their true nature. When committing crimes, psychopaths carefully plan out every detail in advance and often have contingency plans in place. Unlike their sociopathic counterparts, psychopathic criminals are cool, calm, and meticulous.

The etiology or cause of psychopathy is different than the cause of sociopathy (1). It is believed that psychopathy is the result of “nature” (genetics) while sociopathy is the result of “nurture” (environment). Psychopathy is related to a physiological defect that results in the underdevelopment of the part of the brain responsible for impulse control and emotions. Sociopathy, on the other hand, is more likely the product of childhood trauma and physical/emotional abuse. Because sociopathy appears to be learned rather than innate, sociopaths are capable of empathy in certain circumstances but not in others.

Psychopathy is the most dangerous of all antisocial personality disorders because of the way psychopaths dissociate emotionally from their actions, regardless of how terible they may be. Many serial killers, including Joel Rifkin and the late Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, are unremorseful psychopaths.

(1) Bouchard, T.J., Jr., Lykken, D.T., McGue, M., Segal, N.L. and Tellegen, A. 1990."Sources of human psychological differences: The Minnesota Study of Twins Reared Apart." Science 250 (4978), pp. 223–228.

Dr. Scott Bonn is professor of sociology and criminology at Drew University. He is available for consultation and media commentary. His new book Why We Love Serial Killers will be released by Skyhorse Press in October 2014. Follow him @DocBonn on Twitter and visit his websiteDocBonn.Com

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:56 pm

I have my Master's degree in Psychology -- but specialized in family counseling and children

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:00 pm

Aamartin wrote:I have my Master's degree in Psychology -- but specialized in family counseling and children

Thank you. Fascinating. I would consider a point for grandiosity from what we already know about Lizzie. 10 out of 19 is slightly more meaningful considering there's not evidence, positive or negative, for seven (possibly eight) of the other questions. How would she score if enough information were available to accurately rate her in every category. And if the instrument were normed for Victorian era women.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:13 pm

Yes, we have no evidence of early behavioural problems, but suppose, for instance, that her propensity for shoplifting began as a juvenile and she just didn't get caught? Of course, even if she had been caught, in those days it generally meant a cuff over the ears from the shopkeeper, and perhaps the shopkeeper visiting the parents, with no official record kept.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:04 am

I'd score her on 2,13 and 14

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:18 am

On 13 and 14 certainly, agreed!

The trouble with identifying Lizzie with a grandiose sense of self-worth, IMO, is that while her outward behaviour was certainly snobbish and 'entitled', we don't know whether that was ingrained as in 'I am a Borden therefore I....etc' or whether some was taught by Emma, or whether it was part of her personality. She didn't throw her weight around as a child, did she? Or did she!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:26 am

I suspect that issues in childhood may have been ignored, minimized, blamed on someone else or perhaps not brought to parent attention if they occurred in the community. No different than affluent children in today's society...they were the perfect children until they get caught torturing the neighborhood cats. OMG. How did this happen??? I just noticed that you are from Iowa, too, Anthony. Anywhere near Villisca? <<< my new interest in unsolved ax/hatcher murders

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:24 am

Now, Villisca! Those murders are enough to make anyone shudder!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:26 am

Curryong wrote:On 13 and 14 certainly, agreed!

The trouble with identifying Lizzie with a grandiose sense of self-worth, IMO, is that while her outward behaviour was certainly snobbish and 'entitled', we don't know whether that was ingrained as in 'I am a Borden therefore I....etc' or whether some was taught by Emma, or whether it was part of her personality. She didn't throw her weight around as a child, did she? Or did she!

I think more along the line of references to her traveling and being away from home which were exaggeration, naming her new home Maplecroft, not bothering to remember Bridget's real name, viewing Abby as a lesser person....

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:37 am

Curryong wrote:Now, Villisca! Those murders are enough to make anyone shudder!

The expert on Villisca lives in Decorah and taught at Luther College where I was an undergrad about a million years ago. I didn't realize until recently that Villisca may have been part of a series of mass murders of entire families in the Midwest with weapons at hand, including several axes, during 1911-12. We're going on a day trip to Villisca sometime this summer.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:16 am

Two of those, though, viz 'maggie' for Bridget, and viewing Abby as a non-person, could be levelled at Emma, too! Come to think of it, Emma was probably just as much in love with Scotland/Scottish things as Lizzie, which was where, I presume, the house's name derived. How do we know the two sisters didn't name their new home together? Smile.
Sorry, still not convinced about no. 2!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:06 am

I know it's just picky, but I completely disagree with the DSM 5 calling the second condition "Psychopath" I agree it is a real condition, but sticking to classic Greek/Latin nomenclature the literal meaning is abnormal condition of the mind, and it means ANY mental disorder. I taught a course entitled "Psychopathology" and it included depression, ocd, schizophrenia, etc. I just wish they would have called them Sociopathy 1 and Sociopathy 2 or something similar. Just my opinion. Anyway, we see classic street thugs who are in trouble all the time, beating up old people, etc. with no conscience, and they indeed are separate from the corporate CEO who would step on his own grandmother's back to get ahead, but in a charming Armani suit with a smile on his face. Definitely two types!

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:13 am

Where are all the neighbors and friends who come out of the woodwork after a Murder trail, and tell everyone all of the day-to-day sordid gossip about Lizzie???
A few people mentioned that Lizzie and Emma were not nice to their step-mother...that came out loud and clear from multiple sources. But during and after the trial, Lizzie still was relatively free from gossip about her past behaviors...that is different from all the gossip about her guilt/innocence.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:34 am

I don't think there was anything to tell. The Bordens of 2nd St kept to themselves. Besides, the sort of salacious nonsense that comes out nowadays about murderers and victims often relates to sexual misdemeanours. As I don't believe Lizzie ever had a sex life, (Nance O'Neil NOT excepted,) there was nothing to discuss.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:36 pm

Very good article, Debbie.

I read somewhere that successful businessmen have a lot on common with psychopaths. The one gets success in society, the other goes against society.

I have always felt Emma was a bit sinister. I rather picture her unwilling to give up her role as mother to Lizzie when Abby came into the picture and I suspect her of training Lizzie to reject Abby. Of the two girls, Lizzie has her mother's eyes. I wonder if Andrew didn't favor her because she resembled her mother, if he really loved Sarah.

Considering the girls calling Bridget "Maggie", this could have been a mutual decision. On Bridget's death certificate it lists her mother's name as Margaret. Perhaps the girls mistakenly called her Maggie a couple times, apologized, and Bridget said she didn't mind because it was her mother's name. I would not be offended to be called by my mother's name in such a case. It could have been a private bit of friendship and familiarity between them. Perhaps Bridget preferred it to her real name.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:58 pm

debbiediablo wrote:I suspect that issues in childhood may have been ignored, minimized, blamed on someone else or perhaps not brought to parent attention if they occurred in the community. No different than affluent children in today's society...they were the perfect children until they get caught torturing the neighborhood cats. OMG. How did this happen??? I just noticed that you are from Iowa, too, Anthony. Anywhere near Villisca? <<< my new interest in unsolved ax/hatcher murders

Villisca is about a two hour drive from me-- and just a half an hour from my sister. If anyone here ever takes the plunge and wants to spend the night there--- we just need to get a group of us-- can stay at my place the day/night before/after and all chip in for the (rather expensive) fee to spend the night.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:18 pm

We're way up in the NE part of the state but someday I'll make it a day trip. I drive a lot with my work although it'd be about 9 hours round trip which doesn't leave a lot of time for looking. It'd be fun to spend the night there. Last I read the fee was $400 for a group, bring your own sleeping bags and pillows. In my case, air mattress. This woman is way too old and arthritic to be sleeping on a floor. Had to laugh...the owner says, "I'm NOT a bed and breakfast!"

irina · Post by **irina** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:08 pm

As earlier mentioned there were other axe murders around the country very similar to Vilisca. One of the most similar was in Colorado, I think Colorado Springs but possibly Denver. They all sound like they could have been done by a mentally deviant transient in my opinion. Online some writers try to tie Vilisca into axe murders all over the US, including Portland, Oregon. The ones most similar to Vilisca happened more toward the midwest. The Oregon one was very different and likely done by a known criminal. There is also a fairly new book about an old axe murder in the midwest. Can't remember much about the book right off. It was in the 1870s. Place name was something like Saxonburg. Sounds like the motive may have been an inheritance. The victims were German immigrants. That's probably enough for search terms to google it. It's frustrating that all of these are so removed from the Borden case. It would be interesting if they could be connected, but no way. Amazingly I don't think axe murder was that uncommon. Years ago I knew someone whose great aunt had been killed that way in a small town in Oregon in 1901. Another unsolved. The woman lived by the railroad tracks.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:11 pm

debbie, is there no rail service between the two spots, even if it's not all the way? (Drop off and be picked up for the rest.) I'm not suggesting a bus because I think sitting all that way would be horrendous! I'm not sure about air or rail services in the US away from main provincial centres. Many of our rail networks in Australia have been cut, but I do love train travel as an alternative.

I suppose axe murders, in rural areas especially, would be logical when you think about it, wouldn't it, especially if a quarrel suddenly erupted and there was no rifle around. Were gun murders common at that time, away from the West, I wonder?
I do think that two of the things that make the Borden case very unusual are that this axe/hatchet murder occurred, not on a farm (like the Manchester murder) or a small town, but in the middle of a large urban centre. The other circumstance is that a woman was arrested for such a crime.

I've been a true-crime buff all my life, with a special interest in 19th century British crime, and have to say that, apart from a bad-tempered Irish cook who chopped up her employer in the 1870's and a prostitute here in Melbourne who attacked and killed a fellow worker in the same decade, I have never read of a female killing by such a method. (Both those women were also heavy drinkers). Poison seems to have been the method of choice of the vast majority of Victorian murderesses!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:36 pm

irina wrote:As earlier mentioned there were other axe murders around the country very similar to Vilisca. One of the most similar was in Colorado, I think Colorado Springs but possibly Denver. They all sound like they could have been done by a mentally deviant transient in my opinion. Online some writers try to tie Vilisca into axe murders all over the US, including Portland, Oregon. The ones most similar to Vilisca happened more toward the midwest. The Oregon one was very different and likely done by a known criminal. There is also a fairly new book about an old axe murder in the midwest. Can't remember much about the book right off. It was in the 1870s. Place name was something like Saxonburg. Sounds like the motive may have been an inheritance. The victims were German immigrants. That's probably enough for search terms to google it. It's frustrating that all of these are so removed from the Borden case. It would be interesting if they could be connected, but no way. Amazingly I don't think axe murder was that uncommon. Years ago I knew someone whose great aunt had been killed that way in a small town in Oregon in 1901. Another unsolved. The woman lived by the railroad tracks.

It would appear that the only difference between Villisca and the other Midwest ax murders was the mirrors in the Moore house were covered. The telephone in one of the other homes had been covered, too. All of them took place in homes located within blocks of the railroad tracks. Not all were committed with an ax; one involved and lead pipe and in one case the murder weapon was not identified. However, in all cases the murderer used whatever was at hand.

Let me be clear about this because I don't think these murders are in any way related to the Borden crime; however, the aspects of the crimes are interesting as they seem physically impossible and yet at least eight families may have been killed by the same person. Below are the facts in all cases other than those noted:

• entered the house by removing a screen and crawling through a window or via an unlocked door
• made sure all windows were darkened with shades or curtains
• used oil lanterns at hand with the wick turned down and the glass chimney removed to limit light
• used a weapon at hand
• chose victims at random via some selection process known only to the killer
• on two occasions killed two families living close to one another in one night
• on a third occasion was caused to flee when a child awoke; the killer left behind a nightgown belonging to a victim killed the same night
• entered so quietly that he was able to kill entire families without any of them showing defensive
injuries or dying in a defensive position; most of them died as they slept even when in the same bed
• creep up creaky old stairs without anyone waking up
• some people thought they had to have been poisoned in order to be killed with no resistance except they weren't
• bludgeoned their heads beyond recognition, most often with an ax
• was left-handed; became so excited when murdered the Moore children that the ax was swung one handed leaving marks in the ceiling in the middle of the room where the children were NOT located...I visualize some kind of ecstatically perverted form of dance
• covered all of them, including their heads, with bed linens afterward
• posed some of the female victims in sexually suggestive ways
• often cleaned up in a basin of water
• prepared and ate food on a number of occasions
• covered the telephone in one case
• covered the mirrors in the Moore house
• more than likely used a slab of bacon to masturbate in the Moore case
• left the house locked in most cases
• left absolutely no evidence that more than one killer was involved
• went up and down creaky stairways in old, always small, houses without making enough noise to wake anyone except the one time noted above
• killed in Colorado, Kansas, Illinois and Iowa - always close to railroad tracks
• in one instance he attempted to break into the home of the town marshall who was up late reading the newspaper; scared off he walked a few houses away and killed the family there
• totally disappeared afterward
• murders started in 1911 and ended after a man named Henry Moore was incarcerated for the ax murder of an Illinois family in 1912

The reason I'm listing all of this (other than it's fascinating) is that almost all of it extends beyond rational and believable...even beyond imagination... were it not established fact supported by evidence and investigation.

The guy managed to get into houses and make no noise, hang around a loooooong time, kill everyone including two and three people in the same bed without arousing anyone, kill more than one family in the same night, make himself at home with food and clean-up, and get the hell out without anyone ever noticing anything except for the one woman whose child woke up and and the town marshall who didn't bother to check out the noise until the following morning. The guy was a phantom until he was apprehended, and even then there was no confession to ensure they caught "Billy the Axman" as the killer was dubbed by the press.

Although we like to dissect the Borden facts for probability, possibility, improbability, impossibility, lack of evidence, who and what the neighborhood did or did not see, how long the killer might have been in the house, etc., how far a hatchet can be tossed, whether or not a note existed...the reality of life (and death) is that truth can be entirely more illogical and unbelievable than fiction.

It is now Possum's turn for rebuttal...

Truly, as much as I don't think Franz's theory is correct, it makes every bit as much sense as the truth in the Villisca/Billy the Axman murders.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:56 pm

Wow, debbie, echoes of Ed Gein/Albert Fish weirdness in some of the instances described.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:52 pm

Curryong wrote:debbie, is there no rail service between the two spots, even if it's not all the way? (Drop off and be picked up for the rest.) I'm not suggesting a bus because I think sitting all that way would be horrendous! I'm not sure about air or rail services in the US away from main provincial centres. Many of our rail networks in Australia have been cut, but I do love train travel as an alternative.

I suppose axe murders, in rural areas especially, would be logical when you think about it, wouldn't it, especially if a quarrel suddenly erupted and there was no rifle around. Were gun murders common at that time, away from the West, I wonder?
I do think that two of the things that make the Borden case very unusual are that this axe/hatchet murder occurred, not on a farm (like the Manchester murder) or a small town, but in the middle of a large urban centre. The other circumstance is that a woman was arrested for such a crime.

I've been a true-crime buff all my life, with a special interest in 19th century British crime, and have to say that, apart from a bad-tempered Irish cook who chopped up her employer in the 1870's and a prostitute here in Melbourne who attacked and killed a fellow worker in the same decade, I have never read of a female killing by such a method. (Both those women were also heavy drinkers). Poison seems to have been the method of choice of the vast majority of Victorian murderesses!

Passenger rail service is unheard of in the Midwest except for connecting large metropolitan areas. Carrier rail service in most small towns no longer exists either. Often the rails have been pulled up and the rail bed is now a bike path. A bus would probably take two days to get there. In Iowa, people drive...and drive...and drive...as in I drive 90 miles round trip to my favorite manicurist!

I'm still among the minimal ranks of the Undecideds, but the more I look at Lizzie and what facts we know or are fairly sure about, the more I think she was complicit in the murder of Andrew (she may have killed Abby or maybe not) but I don't think she smashed in his face with a hatchet. Parricide via hatchet committed by a female is pretty darned uncommon, especially given that the remainder of her life (before and after) did not involve overt violence. Then again, none of us know what all went on behind the closed doors at #92.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:01 pm

Curryong wrote:Wow, debbie, echoes of Ed Gein/Albert Fish weirdness in some of the instances described.

Lololololol....

this is one of the few places I've ever been (online or otherwise) where everyone will know who Ed Gein and and Albert Fish are!! And yes, the perpetrator was probably insane although not by the McNaughton standard.

Does anyone know what finger Andrew wore the gold ring Lizzie gave to him on?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:40 pm

From Officer Michael Mullaly's testimony (page 620 'The Trial of Lizzie Borden' ed. Stefani Koorey)
He states, in his interview with Lizzie that Thursday,

Q. You asked Miss Lizzie what her father had on his person, property?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. She told you a watch, a chain and a ring on the little finger?
A A silver watch and chain, a pocket book with some money in it, and a gold ring on his little finger.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:48 pm

Did men generally wear wedding rings back then? Speaking of the cash on his person which was mentioned here or elsewhere (I'm the Queen of Off Topic...or is that being grandiose...:-) more than $80 seems like a lot of money to be carrying around. He may have been going to pay someone or else someone paid him.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:07 pm

Gold ring on left little finger.

The two families killed were in Colorado. Recheck those cases because I think one victim might have tried to escape. It seems there may have been bacon or some food involved in the Colorado case. To my knowledge there isn't a good book written about all these cases yet. Interesting territory for a writer.

I just commented and therefore brought to the surface an old discussion that shows a great deal of confusion with Morse and Bowen. My comment is plenty of confusion to go around. Perhaps it could also be plenty of guilt to go around.

People have always committed murder with whatever was at hand. I always thought the Borden murders were particularly horrible and hadn't hear of Vilisca or the others until recently. I am extremely surprised there are so many axe murders. I think out west more people had guns because of hunting and ranching activities. It is interesting that Andrew had a club under the bed instead of a gun. On the other hand many guns were not that accurate. I can't recall any woman known to commit axe murder. There is the case of the "Bloody Benders" in Kansas but I don't know if the women folk did any killing.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:58 pm

You must really like your manicurist, debbie!

Perhaps Andrew was in the middle of business activities that Thursday morning but felt too unwell to complete them. Maybe the old coot was planning to pay the carpenters on that building project he briefly visited but felt nauseous and left it for another day. 80 dollars is indeed a lot of money to be keeping to yourself and he was lucky he wasn't robbed on the way home!

I always thought male wedding rings was quite a modern concept. I haven't ever seen Victorian photographs of British males wearing them. It might be different in the U.S. though.

The Bloody Benders was a strange case, wasn't it? The men probably did the killing and the women stripped the bodies of valuables, do you think?

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:28 am

irina wrote:Gold ring on left little finger.

The two families killed were in Colorado. Recheck those cases because I think one victim might have tried to escape. It seems there may have been bacon or some food involved in the Colorado case. To my knowledge there isn't a good book written about all these cases yet. Interesting territory for a writer.

I just commented and therefore brought to the surface an old discussion that shows a great deal of confusion with Morse and Bowen. My comment is plenty of confusion to go around. Perhaps it could also be plenty of guilt to go around.

People have always committed murder with whatever was at hand. I always thought the Borden murders were particularly horrible and hadn't hear of Vilisca or the others until recently. I am extremely surprised there are so many axe murders. I think out west more people had guns because of hunting and ranching activities. It is interesting that Andrew had a club under the bed instead of a gun. On the other hand many guns were not that accurate. I can't recall any woman known to commit axe murder. There is the case of the "Bloody Benders" in Kansas but I don't know if the women folk did any killing.

Dr. Edgar Epperly who is a retired Professor of Education at Luther College, Decorah, IA (GO NORSE!) is the expert on these murders. He has been researching them since 1955 when he was an undergrad at what is now the University of Northern IA (then called State College of IA)...he even had the ax in his bedroom closet for a number of years! (That might be a bit much for me.) He helped produce an award winning documentary Villisca: Living With Mystery that was filmed a few years ago and can be (supposedly) watched on Vimeo for a few dollars. It's also available on Amazon.

I like Epperly because he's a true academic researcher and makes no assumptions (Possum would love him!!!)..."Just the facts, ma'am," as Joe Friday was slightly misquoted on Dragnet. Epperly has a book in the works: I think the publication date is relatively soon. Soon maybe being relative to 1955...:-) There's also Villisca by Roy Marshall and more recently Murdered in Their Beds by Troy Taylor. And a few others. Taylor writes but does not research although he is accurate regarding other people's findings.

Epperly's work will be definitive.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:37 am

Curryong wrote:You must really like your manicurist, debbie!

Perhaps Andrew was in the middle of business activities that Thursday morning but felt too unwell to complete them. Maybe the old coot was planning to pay the carpenters on that building project he briefly visited but felt nauseous and left it for another day. 80 dollars is indeed a lot of money to be keeping to yourself and he was lucky he wasn't robbed on the way home!

I always thought male wedding rings was quite a modern concept. I haven't ever seen Victorian photographs of British males wearing them. It might be different in the U.S. though.

The Bloody Benders was a strange case, wasn't it? The men probably did the killing and the women stripped the bodies of valuables, do you think?

The Bloody Benders are even too bloody for me although maybe their lack of appeal is the lack of mystery.

Times change, but I can't imagine giving my Dad whom I loved very much a ring that belonged to me to wear on his left hand. Nor can I imagine my girls giving one to my husband. Very few men in our area wear wedding rings; most of them are consigned to the jewelry box. Years ago one of our neighbors jumped off a wagon and caught his wedding ring on something...and literally ripped off his ring finger. The next day almost every man in the vicinity was ringless and the older ones remain so.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:31 am

Everyone has a dark side. Or maybe she just flipped out, couldn't take, call it what you want. But let's face it, Daddy warbucks wasn't exactly the easiest person to live with. And the girls didn't get along with Abby. It was hot box waiting to explode. Lizzie just couldn't take anymore.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:18 am

I think the wedding ring for men thing was popularized when de Beers popularized diamond rings for women. The double ring ceremony, etc. Wedding rings for men have been known at various times through history. Men who work manually never wear them because like you say it is an easy way to lose a finger...or hand. I don't think it's weird that Lizzie gave her ring to her father. It was probably a signet type ring and men wear those. Maybe it was too large for her finger. Maybe her father did something extraordanry so she could finish school.

The thing about the Benders is where did they go and how did they live the rest of their lives? That's always the thing with criminals who get away with it. Do they move on and commit more crimes or do they go straight and become someone's beloved grandparent?

I think the axe murder book should be about all extremely similar cases at the time. Billy the Axeman or whatever. Was it a trend, a way of subsisting or one crazy person riding the rails. Very similar to Angel Resindez Ramirez, it seems to me.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:48 pm

Murdered in Their Beds is about all the axman murders although the main focus is Villisca. Epperly is probably the "go to" person on the other murders, too, as he has researched them alongside Villisca.

When I first joined this forum my opinion was that Lizzie probably had borderline personality disorder due to genetic predisposition compounded by the early death of her mother, and after a long hot summer she blew a head gasket and killed Abby. And then either killed Andrew by design or because she had no other choice.

At least for this moment in time I totally disagree with my earlier self on these two points.

We all have two faces, or more; most people are not self-actualized or fully integrated or whatever shrink term is appropriate. Ambivalence exists in all of us about everything; however, most of us are not diametrical opposites either. Lizzie doesn't appear as Dr. Jekyll and Miss Hyde either. She made no effort to hide her distaste for Abby, either to her face or behind her back. She wanted to tour Europe, and she did. She professed to love her father and a lot of her actions would indicate that she did.

Except for when she's enabling-allowing-witnessing his face being bashed in with a hatchet.

I can fully understand the jury's confusion. A spinster goes from Sunday school teacher to the bludgeoning deaths of her elderly father and step-mother in less than two hours one Thursday morning in August. But then I look at Hare's Checklist, think of the 10 score without childhood information and not viewing her as grandiose (which I think she is), and inexplicable behavior suddenly makes sense.

Aamartin · Post by **Aamartin** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:40 pm

I think a great deal of Lizzie's behavior, etc-- comes from Emma's influence on her as she was growing up.Us against them attitude, blaming Abby, etc.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:35 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
Curryong wrote:Wow, debbie, echoes of Ed Gein/Albert Fish weirdness in some of the instances described.
Lololololol.... this is one of the few places I've ever been (online or otherwise) where everyone will know who Ed Gein and and Albert Fish are!! …

I agree, Debbie. Here is what Eddie Gein was like after his trial:

Eddie was happy at the hospital — happier, perhaps, than he'd ever been in his life. He got along well enough with the other patients, though for the most part he kept to himself. He was eating three square meals a day (the newsmen were struck by how much heavier Eddie looked since his arrest five years before). He continued to be an avid reader. He like his regular chats with the staff psychologists and enjoyed the handicraft work he was assigned — stone polishing, rug making, and other forms of occupational therapy. He had even developed an interest in ham radios and had been permitted to use the money he had earned to order an inexpensive receiver.

All in all, he was a perfectly amiable, even docile patient, one of the few in the hospital who never required tranquilizing medications to keep his craziness under control. Indeed, apart from certain peculiarities — the disconcerting way he would stare fixedly at nurses or any other female staff members who wandered into his line of vision — it was hard to tell that he was particularly crazy at all...

Superintendent Schubert told reporters that Gein was a model patient. "If all our patients were like him, we'd have no trouble at all."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... ner_7.html

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:51 pm

twinsrwe wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:
Curryong wrote:Wow, debbie, echoes of Ed Gein/Albert Fish weirdness in some of the instances described.
Lololololol.... this is one of the few places I've ever been (online or otherwise) where everyone will know who Ed Gein and and Albert Fish are!! …
I agree, Debbie. Here is what Eddie Gein was like after his trial:

Eddie was happy at the hospital — happier, perhaps, than he'd ever been in his life. He got along well enough with the other patients, though for the most part he kept to himself. He was eating three square meals a day (the newsmen were struck by how much heavier Eddie looked since his arrest five years before). He continued to be an avid reader. He like his regular chats with the staff psychologists and enjoyed the handicraft work he was assigned — stone polishing, rug making, and other forms of occupational therapy. He had even developed an interest in ham radios and had been permitted to use the money he had earned to order an inexpensive receiver.

All in all, he was a perfectly amiable, even docile patient, one of the few in the hospital who never required tranquilizing medications to keep his craziness under control. Indeed, apart from certain peculiarities — the disconcerting way he would stare fixedly at nurses or any other female staff members who wandered into his line of vision — it was hard to tell that he was particularly crazy at all...

Superintendent Schubert told reporters that Gein was a model patient. "If all our patients were like him, we'd have no trouble at all."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... ner_7.html

Excellent comparison.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:51 am

He probably was perfectly content. Accommodation, all food provided and a few nice hobbies, plus his happy memories.
Whatever did the people in his home town think at the time he was on the prowl and afterwards, when his activities were discovered? Graves desecrated, body parts of loved ones ending as brooches, ornaments and even masks and cloaks. No horror film could come close!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:13 am

irina wrote:I solved one mystery~~why some things don't post. I wrote a thoughtful comment here last night and the screen kind of flashed when I submitted. Going back to the main panel I noted that Curryong had posted~at the EXACT SAME TIME. Australia wins! My comment got axed, so to speak.

This has happened to me many a time...one too many a time. Now I copy every entry before hitting Submit. That saves me time, brain power and my family from having to listen to me curse worse than the two wranglers with the black mustang.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:22 am

Curryong wrote:He probably was perfectly content. Accommodation, all food provided and a few nice hobbies, plus his happy memories.
Whatever did the people in his home town think at the time he was on the prowl and afterwards, when his activities were discovered? Graves desecrated, body parts of loved ones ending as brooches, ornaments and even masks and cloaks. No horror film could come close!

He was one of the inspirations for Buffalo Bill, and yes, the book and the movie did not capture his absolute insanity – although Thomas Harris did a great job of creating a cunning killer.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:25 am

I do this deliberately! I wait on my computer (for hours sometimes) until the moment I can sense that another member is posting a considered and brilliantly conceived long missive and then K-POW!!! with MY drivel!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:09 am

Curryong wrote:I do this deliberately! I wait on my computer (for hours sometimes) until the moment I can sense that another member is posting a considered and brilliantly conceived long missive and then C-POW!!! with my drivel!

Curryong, WonderWoman of the internet, able to delete other people's posts from a range of 10,000 miles with a single keystroke!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:50 am

Thank you debbie, I was hoping to keep my powers a secret for a little longer....but I've now been exposed, for ever!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:58 pm

debbiediablo wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
debbiediablo wrote:Lololololol.... this is one of the few places I've ever been (online or otherwise) where everyone will know who Ed Gein and and Albert Fish are!! …
I agree, Debbie. Here is what Eddie Gein was like after his trial:

Eddie was happy at the hospital — happier, perhaps, than he'd ever been in his life. He got along well enough with the other patients, though for the most part he kept to himself. He was eating three square meals a day (the newsmen were struck by how much heavier Eddie looked since his arrest five years before). He continued to be an avid reader. He like his regular chats with the staff psychologists and enjoyed the handicraft work he was assigned — stone polishing, rug making, and other forms of occupational therapy. He had even developed an interest in ham radios and had been permitted to use the money he had earned to order an inexpensive receiver.

All in all, he was a perfectly amiable, even docile patient, one of the few in the hospital who never required tranquilizing medications to keep his craziness under control. Indeed, apart from certain peculiarities — the disconcerting way he would stare fixedly at nurses or any other female staff members who wandered into his line of vision — it was hard to tell that he was particularly crazy at all...

Superintendent Schubert told reporters that Gein was a model patient. "If all our patients were like him, we'd have no trouble at all."

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_kill ... ner_7.html
Excellent comparison.

Thanks, Debbie.