Lizzie and arsenic

[MysteryReader]

I wonder if Lizzie had thought about killing her father and step-mother with arsenic, if she knew what it did to the body? I am reading a book and the author describes what happens to the person once he/she ingests arsenic. Holy cow! Whoever thought that it was an easy way to kill someone using that form?

[Curryong]

Arsenic was often regarded as a quick fix to the problem of unwanted spouses and other relatives in Victorian times. It was mostly used by female poisoners. Some made the mistake of giving large amounts at the one time, due to impatience probably! I suspect the ones who got away with it gave a little at a time daily, so that after a few weeks the victim would be regarded as a person failing in health, and their death wouldnt be regarded as suspicious.

The trouble is, by Lizzie's day, the symptoms of arsenical poisoning were well-known. Doctors knew what to look out for and therefore it was quite a risky method of disposing of someone. I agree, death by arsenic is a terrible end.

Lizzie would have a problem if she tried it as she wasn't known as a helper when food was being prepared and did little cooking. She must have known how to do some of course as she baked muffins for newsboys later in life. My guess is she and Emma were shown the basics of cookery when they were young, but at no. 92 Abby and Bridget were in charge in the kitchen.

[MysteryReader]

In the book I'm reading, we know early on that the murderers were family and they didn't do any cooking (they had servants then, too; 1833). I just haven't gotten to how it was administered- in a large dose or smaller doses over time. I thought I read somewhere here that Lizzie could have put it in sugar as it was white. I don't know just yet because I'm working on another project and haven't had time to search the posts.

In the book I'm reading (The Inheritor's Powder: A Tale of Arsenic Murder), the author gives a detailed description of what was served for breakfast and I noticed the mention of 2 types of sugar used back then. Of course, 3 others got sick (one a maid) so I'm interested in knowing the how of it being administered.

[Curryong]

Very interesting, MysteryReader. I must take a look! In another famous real-life English mystery in the 1930's, in which three members of the same family died, the suspect, a female member of the family, didn't even live in the same house for two of them!

There was an unlocked side door from the outside that led directly to steps going down to a basement storeroom. This storeroom had packets containing the bases for vegetable soup. The soup was served for lunch when an aunt who was visiting got sick (not part of the murderer's plan) as well as a daughter who lived in the house, (she was the target) the cook and a cat. The cat was immediately sick in the kitchen. So where there's a will there's a way!

I know that in the 19th century grocers sold sugar in blocks which were then broken up by sugar tongs. Do they mean demerara sugar, when they talk about two sugars, I wonder?

[debbiediablo]

This forum often brings a smile when someone mentions this or that historic murder...we're all true-crime obsessed!!!...and everyone else immediately recognizes it.

[MysteryReader]

I know that in the 19th century grocers sold sugar in blocks which were then broken up by sugar tongs. Do they mean demerara sugar, when they talk about two sugars, I wonder?[/quote]

They mentioned a thick, treacly sugar and then, the maid's mother had given her lump sugar when she began working for this family (the maid had been there about 3-4 years).

[MysteryReader]

This forum often brings a smile when someone mentions this or that historic murder...we're all true-crime obsessed!!!...and everyone else immediately recognizes it.

LOL! Yes, people do recognize it.

[Curryong]

I wonder whether we should get treatment for it? Hypnotism perhaps?

I suppose you could put arsenic in coffee and Lizzie might make a pot of that without being suspected. I think sugar in 1833 was still being produced from sugar cane grown in the New World with molasses as part of the refining process. By Lizzie's time I believe they were harvesting sugar beet and the new white very refined sugar was becoming popular, still sold in loaves, though.

[MysteryReader]

I wonder whether we should get treatment for it? Hypnotism perhaps?

Not sure that would help!

I suppose you could put arsenic in coffee and Lizzie might make a pot of that without being suspected. I think sugar in 1833 was still being produced from sugar cane grown in the New World with molasses as part of the refining process. By Lizzie's time I believe they were harvesting sugar beet and the new white very refined sugar was becoming popular, still sold in loaves, though.

I'll have to look into the sugar. I did look here quickly (I'm sure there are more posts than the one I read) and it's a hoax or mistruth from someone's book about the sugar and Lizzie's possible poisoning.

[Curryong]

She did go for prussic acid, though, and that's a very odd poison to want to use, so she probably had poison on her mind.

[irina]

I have considered arsenic for the severe illness Mr. & Mrs. B. had. There are a number of true crime shows on TV where arsenic was used, both historically and recently. In America it is still frequently overlooked. The oldtime poisoners did administer small amounts and the victims were considered to be in declining health until they died. Some of these murderers weren't suspected until four or five husbands had wasted away. One of these females started her activities right here in Idaho, in Twin Falls.

Rat poisons and even fly papers contained arsenic and thallium and other nasty things so it was readily available.

One problem I have with the Bordens being poisoned is that I absolutely do not believe Bridget was poisoned. I absolutely believe her illness Thursday morning was migraine. Maybe Lizzie (or Bridget) could have poisoned cream cakes or something then avoid eating that food. If Bridget was involved as some think, then the whole scenario becomes easier.

Anyway in some modern cases when arsenic wasn't properly used the victim(s) got horrendously, acutely ill, similar to how Abby and Andrew were ill. I think about this and that Abby thought they had been poisoned.

But like someone here said, I think Debbie, people who are really poisoned seldom suspect they have been poisoned. I was poisoned once and never considered poison because I had no reason to suspect. No, this isn't one of my stories of personal betrayal and nasty people. I lived and travelled in Oregon. We had a cult in central Oregon that worshipped Bagwan Shree Rajneesh an East Indian holy guy. They had their own town called Rajneesh Puram in Wasco County and tried to take over county government by discouraging anyone but them from voting. So they poisoned salad bars up and down the freeway with salmonella so voters would be too sick to go to the polls. My husband and I travelled that weekend and ate at a salad bar. He didn't get sick. I got the worst "bellyache" of my life for over a week. I ate pasta salad which I loved (and will never touch again), and my husband ate none since he always despised pasta salad. It was awhile later that we learned of the mass poisonings. No one died but some folks got awful sick.

So personally I don't know if a horrible illness leads one to suspect poisoning or if there needs to be something else that makes one fear. Of course in this day and age we in America expect healthy food and reasonable cleanliness in restaurants. I have worked in restaurants and know they aren't perfect but one doesn't expect to be poisoned, either.

I think it's possible the Bordens got one dose of arsenic that nobody detected. If so I would surely suspect Lizzie or Bridget. But like I say I only consider it a POSSIBILITY. On the other hand did they receive any gifts of food? Did anyone send the cream cakes as a gift for example? If so maybe that could point in new directions.

[debbiediablo]

I can't really present a strong argument for this scenario, but there's always been a niggling in my mind that Lizzie had initiated an attempt at arsenic poisoning, perhaps only for a day or two, then something happened to force her hand. She tried for prussic acid and settled on the hatchet to get matters taken care of quickly. This would be more believable if the motive were obvious.

[Curryong]

We are back again, aren't we, to the 'did something happen' or 'was something discussed' in the preceding 24 hours before that Thursday morning to force Lizzie's or someone else's hand? Did she turn away from poison to more direct methods? Personally, I'm more convinced of something happening/being discussed, than ever. I think it had something to do with land, farm and those papers Andrew was looking over, which I believe were burned. But I guess we will never know.