Liz Quiz

[August Pears]

I am seriously starved for a good Lizzie conversation, so I have put together a little Liz Quiz in hopes of hearing some feedbck from some fellow enthusist:
1. What is the best book about the Borden murders?
2. Was Uncle John in on it, or the most poorly time visitor in all of history?
3. Do you beleive someone could go in and out and all around the house cleaning windows and not have noticed two murder victims?
4. Do you think Emma was a conspirator? ( I ask this because I have 2 daughters, and they are quite good a plotting and carrying out clever jokes and pranks and I sincerely hope not murder. However, when it comes right down to the execution of their devised action the younger one is who carries it out whilst the older one is safe and sound in an iron clad alibi.)
5. And the granddaddy of all questions: Did Lizzie hack Abby and Andrew to death?

[mbhenty]

Yes August:

Two of the best books out there are Leonard Rebello's Lizzie Borden Past and present and Parallel Lives, written by the curators of the fall river Historical Society. Though these two books are stacked with facts and statistics, there is very little to no discussion, analysis, or appraisal of the crime. For this there are countless books with accounts, all with their own inaccuracies, delusional conclusions, or erroneous plots and scenarios.

Some of my favorite writers on the Borden Crime is Edward Radin and Edmund Pearson. Pearson thought Lizzie guilty. Radin tried making a case for the maid as the murderer. But it you are planning some big reading on the case, one must begin with Edwin Porter The Fall River Tragedy. (Porter the writer, not the film director/producer) Hey how about that: Edward, Edmund, and Edwin.

Though, I believe Uncle John may have had the facts, he was in fact at the wrong place at the wrong time. (Or at the right place at the right time) And the only reason he did not talk was because it was someone close to the family and he did not want to get involved. What he knew was probably very speculative, but doused in probable circumstantial knowledge.

Yes I do believe someone could have gotten by Bridget without her seeing them. Think about playing hide and seek. Now think of the hider having help!

Like Morse I believe Emma had more information than she cared to know. She may in fact have know what really happened, though I don't believe she had anything to do with it.

No! I don't believe that Lizzie Borden hacked Andrew and Abby to death. I do believe she knew who. I also believe that she could have assisted as a lookout. But no, she did not swing the axe. And if she in fact did, then the maid was in on it.

[August Pears]

Hi MB
I appreciate the reply.
I too think Parallel Lives is chockerblocked full of facts and is a must for any Borden buff library. Pearson's book is good, but Porter is a bit of a bruiser, and it reads like a string of punchy headlines - and I guess that is no surprise considering his day job. My favorite is David Kent's 40 Whacks. His breakdown of the actual crime and narration of the trial make me feel like I have a front row seat or am a fly on the wall.

I also think Morse was privy to more info than he let on and so was Emma, but somehow not Bridget. She seemed truly terrified afterwards. And she wouldn't even sleep at Borden house that night. Morse, Emma, and Lizzie all just going to their beds whilst the bloody gorey hacked corpses are downstairs is just too creepy to imagine. I know dead bodies were laid out in their homes before the burial was normal then. But this is so far from normal.

I don't want Lizzie to be guilty. And that is where my rationality gets fuzzy. I will always entertain theories that keep her hands clean. But she had to know. I can't believe there is anyway to dodge that.

[mbhenty]

Yes August: You're welcomed.

I have always cheered Kent's account and it usually gets high marks by many.

I should read it before I recommended it 'again'.

Speaking with a Borden scholar just the other day, (while we sat on the back porch of Mapecroft) a gentleman who co-edited Lizzie Borden Past and Present, said that he was currently reading Kent's Forty Whacks and that it is riddled with errors.

Of course, now I will need to read it myself and get back to everyone.

[tinkse7en]

Oh, thank you for this quiz- as a brand-newbie, I have been dithering re: the netiquette of starting a thread (so "not done, dear"), but i so long to know what books were considered most reliable,& here my prayers are answered.

1. I did know Rebello is considered great source material, but came across a mention of Pearson today (saying that it was believed that two of the ladies quoted in his book 'Studies In Murder' were Carrie & Anna Borden, Lizzie's companions on her Grand Tour- intriguing). Good to know he isn't merely another yellow journalist. Thanks, all!

2. I think John Morse is one giant, probably smelly, red herring. Lol
#speculation imho,
His only contribution to this tragedy may have been the conversation with Andrew the night before- IF Andrew was discussing the "trouble at home" & the making of a will with him, & IF Lizzie eavesdropped (i think she would: in any case. I think she was that kind of girl).

I find that so human of Andrew: how many of us don't confide in our daily friends, but when some old like-minded buddy (& i doubt Andrew had many trusted buddies) who doesn't know our current friends, won't talk, won't be around to embarrass us later, we feel safe to spill it out.

3. Yes, I believe it's possible Bridgit never heard a thing.

4. No, I don't believe Emma was directly involved.

5. Were I on that jury, I too would have acquitted Lizzie on the evidence presented.

[August Pears]

Hi tinkse7en
I worries a bit about jumping in with a new post too, but everything I read here seemed to be so genuinely helpfil, I got brave. Plus, I want to discuss lizzie so badly.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Good stuff.

[August Pears]

Hi tinkse7en
I worries a bit about jumping in with a new post too, but everything I read here seemed to be so genuinely helpfil, I got brave. Plus, I want to discuss Lzzie so badly.
I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Good stuff. Very thought provoking .

So how about a bonus question:
Do you think Dr. Bowen is a bit fishy?

[tinkse7en]

Ok, about the bonus question: I'll bite (I was gonna say "take a whack at it" but figure that particular pun has been done to death... ok, I'm stopping now).

There's possibly something off about Dr. Bowen. Some of his actions seem sketchy, but given the times, & that likely the possibility of Lizzie's involvement never entered the good doctor's mind, I do think it is possible that he may have shielded Lizzie in some manner, believing himself to be protecting this gentle maiden lady from further distress.

I'm specifically, but not exclusively, referring to the whatever-it-was that he burned: not that I think it a will, however. I think even the most stalwart of self-appointed Protectors of Modest Femininity would quail at the prospect of destroying such a piece of valuable evidence in the wake of such horrific murders.

*edit: thank you so much for the encouraging words, August Pears! BTW, I think your screen name is so apt: I had thought I knew a lot about this subject (through longtime reading/ websearching), but it wasn't until recently I discovered how very much pears play their role!

(I have a delicious, amazingly easy, idiot-proof recipe for Pear Butter. Just sayin').

[August Pears]

Please post it!! I'm always half way planning some kind of Lizzie themed tea party and that would be pearfection. Har Ha - I'll stop too ;)
I can't say as I really believed the good doctor was in on it, but it did looked like he was trying to destroy evidence when he burned that note. If that is true, why did he know so soon after the murder that Lizzie might need to be shielded? Curiouser and curiouser!

[tinkse7en]

August Pears, I'll post the recipe in Stay To Tea soon. It's a technique I came up with out of exhausted desperation after an all-day canning binge.

Back on topic: I need to reread Dr. Bowen's testimony (via Pearson, all I have right now), so I really don't feel on solid ground commenting further, but I do have a question that might explain much- if my surmise is correct.

It is my understanding that the police force of the day were seen as uncouth, uneducated, unrefined, by the upper class: scarcely better than the criminals they were paid to apprehend.

(I believe this was the case in England at the time: The Ripper investigation was extremely hampered by incompetence at the higher levels: rank was based on social & financial connections, not on merit or ability. No idea if the same prevailed in America back than)

If so, then Dr. Bowen, who conceivably may have been called into a crime scene or two, conceived a repugnance of the po-po, & felt it his Noble Duty to protect Innocent Maidenhood from Indignities Unbefitting Her Station.

[snokkums]

I am seriously starved for a good Lizzie conversation, so I have put together a little Liz Quiz in hopes of hearing some feedbck from some fellow enthusist:
1. What is the best book about the Borden murders?
2. Was Uncle John in on it, or the most poorly time visitor in all of history?
3. Do you beleive someone could go in and out and all around the house cleaning windows and not have noticed two murder victims?
4. Do you think Emma was a conspirator? ( I ask this because I have 2 daughters, and they are quite good a plotting and carrying out clever jokes and pranks and I sincerely hope not murder. However, when it comes right down to the execution of their devised action the younger one is who carries it out whilst the older one is safe and sound in an iron clad alibi.)
5. And the granddaddy of all questions: Did Lizzie hack Abby and Andrew to death?

I think my favorite Lizzie book is "The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook". It's got all kinds of newspaper articles and information in it. At the time, the crime was the "crime of the century"
AS for Uncle John, I think he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think Emma might have inverently gave Lizzie the idea. I do believe Lizzie did do it.

[twinsrwe]

Here is my take on your questions, August.

What is the best book about the Borden murders?
As MB has already mentioned, I also recommend Lizzie Borden: Past & Present by Leonard Rebello, as well as Parallel Lives: A Social History of Lizzie A. Borden and Her Fall River by Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. You’ll pay an arm and a leg for these books, but it is so worth it. Lizzie Borden: Past & Present can be purchased at Amazon.com: http://tinyurl.com/oh4kf5h and AbeBooks.com: http://tinyurl.com/p48d7fp. Parallel Lives: A Social History of Lizzie A. Borden and Her Fall River by Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Can be purchased at Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/ns5tz8z. Both of these books are fantastic. I also highly recommend the Official Trial documents, Police Witness statements and Inquest documents. Official Documents For Download are here, and they are free: http://tinyurl.com/ndh9u7u

Was Uncle John in on it, or the most poorly time visitor in all of history?
I don’t think Uncle John had anything to do with the murders. Granted he did visit with Abby and Andrew, but I believe he was primarily there on a business trip. He had received a letter from Andrew, and I think the content of that letter was the major topic of their conversation on the evening of the 3rd. I also think it was the main topic of this conversation, that was the straw which broke the camel’s back. I’m sure he knew a lot more than he said; he just didn’t want to get involved. I’m also sure he had no doubts about who the killer was.

Do you beleive someone could go in and out and all around the house cleaning windows and not have noticed two murder victims?
Yes, I think someone could have easily gotten by Bridget without being noticed. Her attention was focused on talking with the Kelly maid, and washing those dang windows!!! She would not have her attention focused on anything that was going on in the house at the time Abby was killed. At the time Andrew was killed, she was in her room on the third floor taking a nap, so I’m sure she didn’t hear a thing.

Do you think Emma was a conspirator?
No. I think Emma was an instigator, who planted the seeds of hatred toward Abby in Lizzie’s head from a very early age on, and she also held a highly influential hand over Lizzie. Abby’s wounds indicate that they came from a person who was full of hatred and rage. Something took place between Abby and Lizzie on the morning of the 4th, which caused the killer to murder Abby. I think Andrew’s death took place because he would have known who killed his wife. Whether Lizzie swung the murder weapon herself or she conspired with someone else to do it. I believe Emma had no doubts whatsoever, who killed her father and stepmother.

And the granddaddy of all questions: Did Lizzie hack Abby and Andrew to death?
I lean toward Lizzie being the sole killer of both Abby and Andrew. I think the conversation between Andrew and Uncle John on the 3rd, is the key to solving the mystery. I think Lizzie may have over heard parts of this conversation, and became very concerned about her future. I don’t believe the murders were planned to take place that particular day. I believe that something took place between Lizzie and Abby on the morning of August 4th, which put Lizzie over the edge. Both of these murders were done by someone who was full of rage. However, in Abby’s case I think hatred along with rage was also a motivating factor. I believe Lizzie was the only one who had the means, motive and opportunity to commit these murders. Furthermore, she and Emma were the ONLY people who gained anything from these murders. If she was not the sole killer, then she knew who the killer was and conspired with that person as well as covered up for them.

For the bonus question: Do you think Dr. Bowen is a bit fishy?
Yes, I do! I believe there was something more between Dr. Bowen and Lizzie than a patient/doctor relationship, as well as a neighbour/friend relationship. Dr. Bowen testified that he did not go to the Borden house on social calls, and that most of his visits there were on business or as a physician. Yet, he escorted Lizzie to her church and sat in the Borden seat, while the rest of the Borden family was away on the farm in Swansea. Dr. Bowen was a member of the First Baptist Church in Fall River, yet he accompanies Lizzie to the Central Congregational Church??? I find this action quite suspicious. Dr. Bowen was a 52 year old, married, man; Lizzie was a 32 year old, single, woman. He was old enough to be her father! Why would Dr. Bowen choose to accompany Lizzie to a church he was not a member of, over spending that time with his wife? Is it any wonder why there was so much gossiping over that incident? Granted the story of Dr. Bowen escorting Lizzie to Church came from Jane Gray, and that there were ill feeling between she and Lizzie. As far as I know, there is nothing which disproves the story Jane told Harrington & Doherty. However, I don’t believe Lizzie and Dr. Bowen were having an affair per say, but they were apparently closer than a physician/patient relationship indicates.

Dr. Bowen was the first person Lizzie asked Bridget to get when she ‘discovered’ her father was ‘hurt’. Her first thought to ask for Dr. Bowen, and then when he was not available, her second thought was to ask for Alice Russell??? Why didn’t she ask Bridget to go for Dr. Kelly, who lived right next door to the Bordens, or Dr. Chagnon, who lived on 3rd street behind Mrs. Churchill’s house if she knew for sure that her father was only ‘hurt’? What did she think Alice was going to do for her father?

We know a bloody weapon was not found. I think it is a possibility that Dr. Bowen placed the murder weapon in his Doctor’s Bag and took it out with him when he left on the day of the murders. Dr. Bowen was alone with Lizzie in her room for a period of time; he was never searched - he freely came and left the house on the 4th. If their relationship was more than a patient/physician one, then I can easily see he would help her cover-up the murders.

The following was posted by Kat on Aug 11, 2004:

Would Dr. Bowen perjure himself?
In the NY Times, Aug. 8th, there appeared this snippet:

"Strange as it may seem, the police do not put much faith in the statements made by Dr. Bowen, who was the first physician on the scene. He saw Mrs. Borden dead when he visited the house the first time [sic], but he did not discover that she had died from murderous wounds until his attention was called to the blood on her hair. According to statements of the authorities, he does not speak with that freedom that might be expected of a man in his professional position."


Oh, and let’s not forget about Dr. Bowen’s note burning incident; the police officers witnessed him tearing up a note in the Borden home on the day of murders, then he tried to piece it back together, and then he burned it. Dr. Bowen claimed that the note pertained to his daughter. Officer Harrington testified that he saw the name "Emma" in the upper left hand corner. Dr. Bowen’s daughter’s name was Florence. Hmmmm.

I find it very odd that Dr. Bowen was the family doctor before the murders, but after the trail we don’t hear of any connection between him and the Borden girls. Why??? I wonder if Dr. Bowen may have realized that his actions with Lizzie, before and after the murders, were threatening his profession as a physician, and therefore the physician/patient relationship between him and the Borden girls had to cease.