Lizzie Borden Society Forum

it's a new one on me!

at first i thought maybe it wasn't real, but the carpet, wall hangings, couch, everything matches up to the originals. it appears to be taken from a newspaper, so it's grainy.

anyone know who this man is? dr. bowen? a detective? someone else?

this illustrates why it didn't bother me reading that either bridget or mrs churchill wondered if they should bring down two sheets instead of one. my money's on bridget saying it, who may have been aware of or suspected the likely thin and threadbare state of the borden household sheets!

you can see one of poor andrew's hands

i'm still pecking away at threads, trying to catch up as i can.

i found it here:

http://escritoconsangre1.blogspot.com.a ... hacha.html

I never saw this picture before.

It certainly does appear to be legitimate at first blush.

However, the body had to have been moved a bit. The pic on the website has one of Andrew sans sheet(s) close enough to compare the two. Andrew's feet and right arm must have been moved when the sheet(s) was draped over the body if that photo is real.

shoot, never mind, it's a recreation.

i ran an image search for the sitting room and couch in the b&b, and you can tell by the wallpaper and the carpet, it's what they have in there now, not the originals:



they did a great job with finding a very similar couch, and wall hangings!

andrew's body being in a different position didn't bother me, because we know he'd slid down from his original position, and they went through his coat and pockets, so it was likely his body was moved in order to do that.

i notice on that page there's another photo that isn't right. it's the one under the bird's eye view illustration of the borden neighborhood, which i assume they think is lizzie. she does look very similar, but it's not lizzie.

Good find, Catbooks!

I had typed up my opinion of the wallpaper and carpet, which I had also found were different. However, i will post the additional things I noticed.
The frame of the couch seems to be the same, but if you look at the known photo of the crime scene there is a light gray pattern in the upholstery on the back rest of the couch, where the ‘new’ picture appears to be a solid black. Although that detail could be because the ‘new’ picture is a newspaper copy.

The picture on the wall between the two doors, appears to be different. In the known crime scene photo, the picture seems to be of a person, and over all it is seems to be a light shade of darker and lighter gray. Whereas the picture in the ‘new’ photo appears to be a pattern of flowers (?) which are of black on gray.

In the ‘new’ photo, the picture above the couch shows 5 blood stains running down the left side of the photo, 1 blood stain in the middle and 2 blood stains running down the right side. The picture above the couch in the known photo does not indicate those blood stains at all.

Furthermore, Andrew’s body in the known crime scene photo appears to be longer than the length of the couch. In the 'new' picture his body appears to be the same length as the couch.

Rigor Mortis is the stiffening of the body after death. Rigor Mortis begins throughout the body at the same time but the body's smaller muscles - such as those in the face, neck, arms and shoulders - are affected first and then the subsequent muscles throughout the rest of the body; those which are larger in size, are affected later. Rigor normally appears within the body around two hours after the deceased has passed away.

Lividity is also useful for this purpose. Lividity is the process through which the body's blood supply will stop moving after the heart has stopped pumping it around the inside of the deceased. What normally happens at this point is that the blood supply - or at least any blood that remains within the corpse depending on the nature of their death - will settle in direct response to gravity.

http://tinyurl.com/3a9mf9v

Temperature is an important factor in determining the time of onset of rigor. In normal circumstances and at room temperature rigor is complete in about three to six hours. If the temperature is higher the onset is more rapid — perhaps no more than an hour in tropical temperatures. Conversely, the onset of rigor is delayed at low temperatures.

http://tinyurl.com/pub3dtq

I’m not sure when the known photo of Andrew laying on the couch was taken, but most likely it was taken several hours after he died. So, it is a possibility that Rigor Mortis had already begun. His hands in the known photo are nowhere near the floor, and even if his body had been moved, Rigor Mortis would have prevented the arm from being extended downward.

Furthermore, the blood supply would have settled toward the back of his head. The large spot of blood on the sheet in the ‘new’ picture appears to be fresh blood. By the time the photo of Andrew lying on the couch was taken, his blood would have been coagulated.

So, IMO, the ‘new’ photo has to be a fake.

Hello Catbooks! Unfortunately the photo is of recent vintage. It appeared in the July 31, 2011, issue of the Fall River Herald News and shows cast members of the Pear Essential Players as they re-enacted the murders and subsequent police investigation for a group of tourists visiting the Borden House. The photo you posted was taken by Herald News photographer Dave Souza, and shows re-enactor Ray Mitchell, as Marshal Rufus Hilliard, examining the corpse of Andrew Borden (Jeff Masson under the sheet) in the parlor. The story also mentions an upcoming Covey Theater production of "Lizzie Borden Took an Ax," a carefully researched play which opened in Syracuse, New York, before traveling to Fall River for a two-night run at Nagle Auditorium.

By the way Catbooks, although the photo was not a major discovery, you have a sharp eye to have spotted it. I suspect very few among us happened to see that 2011 article or recognized the photo.

Interesting. Thank you for the information you gave for the recent vintage photo, John.

I wish that there were more photos that were taken or survived. I think that it would help an arm chair detective like myself. I'm wondering why there aren't more photos from different angles of both Abby and Andrew?

That's a good question, Violette. I suppose it's possible, that more photos were taken which are not for public display.

Catbooks wrote:it's a new one on me!

at first i thought maybe it wasn't real, but the carpet, wall hangings, couch, everything matches up to the originals. it appears to be taken from a newspaper, so it's grainy.

anyone know who this man is? dr. bowen? a detective? someone else?

this illustrates why it didn't bother me reading that either bridget or mrs churchill wondered if they should bring down two sheets instead of one. my money's on bridget saying it, who may have been Sealing Criminal Record in Texas of or suspected the likely thin and threadbare state of the borden household sheets!

you can see one of poor andrew's hands

i'm still pecking away at threads, trying to catch up as i can.

i found it here:

http://escritoconsangre1.blogspot.com.a ... hacha.html

thanks for sharing this crime related scene because it is necessary to share this photo.So, everybody will aware from this type of crime that is happened due to andrew borden.

One easy way to tell the two couches apart is the legs on the original have a pattern in the wood close to the floor, and the replacement does not.