Why was Abby afraid of poison?

[KGDevil]

I have always wondered what made Abby go to Dr. Bowen with a fear of being poisoned. In the summer months people got sick quite often because of the way food was stored and prepared. Why had Abby been so easily convinced that she had been poisoned? I do believe that Lizzie had made attempts to poison Andrew and Abby. But I had to wonder what made Abby suspicious. I was doing a little research and found an article about the deaths at Salisbury Beach in Haverhill, Massachusetts. It was widely covered in the news because I found articles about it in papers as far away as Colorado.

To summarize the case several guests ate a meal at the Cable House in Salisbury Beach in July 1892. Many of them got violently sick soon afterward and died. It remained unsolved at the time of the Borden murders, but the case was in the newspapers almost every day. It was speculated at first that it had been a batch of bad bluefish that may have been served. Then tainted water or canned goods. But as the victims kept dying it became apparent they had been poisoned. Their stomachs had been removed and sent away to check for signs of aresenic poisoning just prior to the day of the Borden murders.

If we believe the Borden family was as caught up in the case everyone else, it could explain a few things. This is just my theory. I have no way of getting proof of this so it is purely speculationm. But it could explain why Abby was so easily convinced she was poisoned by something she ate. Why Lizzie got antsy and tried to buy a more fast acting more untraceable poison (stomachs removed to check for poisons at Salisbury beach.) Why she eventually went the route of the hatchet. Everyone was obsessed with the stories of these poor people dying of poison, and here we have Abby shooting off her mouth about being poisoned.

The New York Times.

The Salisbury Beach Poisoning.

NEWBURYPORT, Mass., Aug. 19. -- Medical Examiner Snow this morning received a report on the result of the examination of the organs of the victims of the Salisbury Beach poisoning case from Prof. Hills of Harvard. The report states that the deaths were caused by paris green. The question now to be decided is, Was the poison administered with intent to kill..."

[KGDevil]

These articles all appeared in the Boston Post and The Fitchburg Sentinel between the dates of July 23 and August 3, 1892.

[KGDevil]

July 23.

[KGDevil]

Boston Post July 29, 1892

[KGDevil]

Boston Post July 25, 1892.

[KGDevil]

Sorry if these are out of order. The Boston Post August 3, 1892.

[KGDevil]

Interesting that the theory of an enemy of the landlord of Cable House was put forth on August 3rd. The same day Lizzie showed up at Alice Russell's house to talk about her father's enemies. A father who incidentally was a landlord.

[twinsrwe]

You may just be onto something here, KGDevil. Perhaps it was a combination of the Cable House story and rumors going around Fall River, that put the idea in Abby’s head.

Inquest testimony from Dr. Seabury W. Bowen, being questioned by Mr. Knowlton, about Abby's sudden visit to his home the day before the murders, Page 115:

Q. Had you been called the week to the family?

A. No Sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o’clock, or before eight, Mrs, Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said that she was afraid she was poisoned. I told her to sit down, and she said the night before about nine o’clock sje and husband commenced to vomit, and vomitted two to three hours until twelve, I understood.

Q. What morning was this?

A. Wednesday morning. I asked her what she had eaten for supper and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit. She said she only ate cake and baker's white bread. At that point she had a sort of eructation of vomiting, slightly. I was afraid she was going to vomit there, I rather got ready for her. I told her to go home and told her what to take; and she took it.

NOTE: Underlining is mine.

Thanks for posting all of those newspaper articles, KGDevil, I found them quite interesting.

[KGDevil]

Your welcome Twins. I found it all very interesting also. If the Bordens were following the case then Lizzie would have been reading about it while she was staying with her friends in New Bedford in July of 1892. Maybe taking notes? Then Andrew and Abby took ill after she gets back. She tried buying the prussic acid the day before the murders, and after Abby expressed her fears about poison. The next day her parents are hacked to death.

[KGDevil]

On August 3, it was in the papers that arsenic had been found in the stomach of the Cable House victim. Lizzie tried to buy prussic acid that evening. The news article states they thought the landlord may have had enemies. Lizzie was at Alice Russell's talking about her father's enemies that night. And about a fear they might burn down the house. A burned body might have been harder to test for poison also. She might have entertained that thought. Then maybe she hacked her parents up to throw the scent off of possible testing for poisons. The cause of death was readily apparent.

But they tested for poison anyway. None was present, but didn't they only test the stomachs? Maybe the stomachs contained no poison because it had already been ingested and expelled from their systems. They obviously had not eaten any since Uncle John arrived. Uncle John was fine. So, the food was fine.

[InterestedReader]

In the body of Andrew Borden both the large and small intestine contained hardened faecal matter, according to the post mortem. In other words, he was constipated. No inflammation of the oesophagus could be seen. In other words there was no sign of his body attempting to eliminate toxins either by diarrhoea or by vomiting. It wasn't just that no poison could be found in his stomach, his body showed no sign of attempting to rid itself of any. This part of the post mortem is often overlooked, in favour of the assumption that some kind of food poisoning was giving them both the runs!

Indeed, for what it's worth, Dr Bowen tells us just what Borden did complain of the day before - "feeling heavy". If Borden ingests toxins in his food but is nevertheless observed to be constipated at time of death it suggests he might be suffering faecal impaction to begin with... All the same, there is none of the inflammation associated with vomiting.

P.S. Didn't Elie Bence accuse Lizzie of prancing in his shop late morning to midday? or am I misremembering...

[KGDevil]

Does it mean he was constipated? Or that the matter was in solid form rather than...well not solid. There is no dignified way to discuss feces is there? These bits of information are often overlooked in deference to the gruesome details.It's also overlooked that Abby had a tumor.

Andrew autopsy.

Inguinal hernia on right side.

ABDOMEN. Spleen normal, kidney normal, liver and bladder normal. Stomach and portion of liver had been removed. Lower part of large bowel filled with solid formed feces. Feces also in lower part of small bowel.

They had been vomiting though. There is a enough testimony about their illness to establish that. But I'm not sure anyone at the time wanted to get into Andrew or Abby's bowel movements. I read somewhere on the forum that tabacco was used as a cure for poisoning back then. Andrew was discovered with tobacco on his body. He did not use tobacco as a habit.

[KGDevil]

I did some brief research on fibroid tumors in the womb/uterus.

Heavy menstrual bleeding.
Prolonged menstrual periods — 7 days or more of menstrual bleeding.
Pelvic pressure or pain.
Frequent urination.
Difficulty emptying your bladder.
Constipation.
Backache or leg pains.

Constipation is a symptom of these types of tumors but she had no signs of constipation.

[twinsrwe]

On August 3, it was in the papers that arsenic had been found in the stomach of the Cable House victim. Lizzie tried to buy prussic acid that evening. The news article states they thought the landlord may have had enemies. Lizzie was at Alice Russell's talking about her father's enemies that night. And about a fear they might burn down the house. A burned body might have been harder to test for poison also. She might have entertained that thought. Then maybe she hacked her parents up to throw the scent off of possible testing for poisons. The cause of death was readily apparent.

But they tested for poison anyway. None was present, but didn't they only test the stomachs? Maybe the stomachs contained no poison because it had already been ingested and expelled from their systems. They obviously had not eaten any since Uncle John arrived. Uncle John was fine. So, the food was fine.

I have often wondered if Lizzie’s conversation with Alice Russell on the evening of August 3rd, was a foreshadowing of her father’s death as she had planned. However, Uncle John threw a wrench into Lizzie’s plans by arriving unexpectedly, on August the 3rd. I believe the conversation Andrew had with Uncle John on August the 3rd, was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I believe that conversation was overheard by Lizzie, and therefore her plans had changed, and she knew that Abby also had to die, and she had to die first.

The stomachs and milk were tested.

Posted by Harry on Monday Dec 31, 2007

Dr. Draper wanted the stomachs of each body removed. They were placed in jars and sealed, prior to their trip to Harvard to be tested by Professor Wood.

Prof. Wood testified at the Preliminary (p376+):

"Q. You say these stomachs showed no appearance of inflamation or irritation?
A. No Sir, they appeared healthy.
Q. Suppose one had been suffering a day or two, or three or four days, from what are common this time of the year, an attack of cholera morbus, or the complaint where one vomits, is unable to retain food, and they die, and the stomach was then examined, what would the appearance of the stomach be under those circumstances?
A. It would not have any special appearance.
Q. There would not be any appearance of any special irritation?
A. No Sir."

Then at the Trial (p994) he testified about the tests he performed upon receiving the stomachs:

"Q. That stomach had not been opened?
A. That stomach had not been opened. It was in the same external condition as the stomach of Mrs. Borden. Both of those contents of the stomachs were immediately tested for prussic acid, because prussic acid, being a volatile acid, it is necessary to make an immediate test for it, as it would very shortly after its exposure to the air escape, and escape detection therefore. Therefore those were both tested for prussic acid, with a negative result. Afterwards they were analyzed in the regular way for the irritant poisons, with also a negative result.
Q. In other words you found no evidence ---
A. I found no evidence of poison of any kind.
Q. Of any kind whatever?
A. In either case. Both jars of milk were also tested in the same way, and without obtaining any evidence of any poison in either the milk of August 3 or the milk of August 4."

[twinsrwe]

...
ABDOMEN. Spleen normal, kidney normal, liver and bladder normal. Stomach and portion of liver had been removed. Lower part of large bowel filled with solid formed feces. Feces also in lower part of small bowel. ....

Thank you, KG, for posting the correct terminology that was used by Dr. Dolan in Andrew's autopsy report, regarding his feces.

Interested, I don’t mean to discredit you, but there is a big difference between ‘solid formed feces’ and ‘hardened faecal matter’. A ‘solid formed feces’ simply means the feces is not hard, soft or runny; it is of normal consistency. If Dr. Dolan had stated that Andrew had ‘hardened faecal matter’ in his large bowel, then, yes. he would have been constipated. Also notice that Dr. Dolan did not indicate a description of the feces in Andrew’s lower small bowel.

Here are the autopsy report’s for both Andrew and Abby: http://tinyurl.com/ppmdp7k

[InterestedReader]

They had been vomiting though. There is a enough testimony about their illness to establish that.

It's interesting this, isn't it. Lizzie testifies she hears them vomiting, overnight. Dr Bowen testifies that Abby comes to his practice in fear of poison, and she almost vomits. I can never find Bridget going so far as to say she herself witnessed any signs of illness in Mr and Mrs Borden... Which leaves Morse, who doesn't testify he saw vomiting. Am I forgetting something? At one point Bridget was vomiting the morning of the murders, but she seemed to change her mind on that.

[InterestedReader]

...
ABDOMEN. Spleen normal, kidney normal, liver and bladder normal. Stomach and portion of liver had been removed. Lower part of large bowel filled with solid formed feces. Feces also in lower part of small bowel. ....

Thank you, KG, for posting the correct terminology that was used by Dr. Dolan in Andrew's autopsy report, regarding his feces.

Interested, I don’t mean to discredit you, but there is a big difference between ‘solid formed feces’ and ‘hardened faecal matter’. A ‘solid formed feces’ simply means the feces is not hard, soft or runny; it is of normal consistency.

Finding formed faeces is at odds with food-poisoning - and many other instances of toxicity introduced into the intestinal tract. The doctors knew this particular to be evidencing strongly against poison. There is no 'incorrect terminology'. Bowel is just a more quotidian term for intestine.

Lizzie testifies her father was taking castor-oil... then the go-to home physick for constipation.

[twinsrwe]

...
ABDOMEN. Spleen normal, kidney normal, liver and bladder normal. Stomach and portion of liver had been removed. Lower part of large bowel filled with solid formed feces. Feces also in lower part of small bowel. ....

Thank you, KG, for posting the correct terminology that was used by Dr. Dolan in Andrew's autopsy report, regarding his feces.

Interested, I don’t mean to discredit you, but there is a big difference between ‘solid formed feces’ and ‘hardened faecal matter’. A ‘solid formed feces’ simply means the feces is not hard, soft or runny; it is of normal consistency.

Finding formed faeces is at odds with food-poisoning - and many other instances of toxicity introduced into the intestinal tract. The doctors knew this particular to be evidencing strongly against poison. There is no 'incorrect terminology'. Bowel is just a more quotidian term for intestine.

Lizzie testifies her father was taking castor-oil... then the go-to home physick for constipation.

Oh my goodness. Interested, you entirely miss the point I was making. The correct terminology I was referring to is Dr. Dolan's use of the words ‘solid formed feces’ vs. your words of ‘hardened faecal matter’.

Please post Lizzie's testimony regarding her father taking castor oil.

[InterestedReader]

Thank you, KG, for posting the correct terminology that was used by Dr. Dolan in Andrew's autopsy report, regarding his feces.

Interested, I don’t mean to discredit you, but there is a big difference between ‘solid formed feces’ and ‘hardened faecal matter’. A ‘solid formed feces’ simply means the feces is not hard, soft or runny; it is of normal consistency.

Finding formed faeces is at odds with food-poisoning - and many other instances of toxicity introduced into the intestinal tract. The doctors knew this particular to be evidencing strongly against poison. There is no 'incorrect terminology'. Bowel is just a more quotidian term for intestine.

Lizzie testifies her father was taking castor-oil... then the go-to home physick for constipation.

Oh my goodness. Interested, you entirely miss the point I was making. The correct terminology I was referring to is Dr. Dolan's use of the words ‘solid formed feces’ vs. your words of ‘hardened faecal matter’.

Please post Lizzie's testimony regarding her father taking castor oil.

Since we can neither of us poke through Mr Borden's faeces to decide on its solidity will you agree on basic human biology? The fact it was noted to be in a formed state does and did counter against food-poisoning. Likewise the absence of inflammation to the stomach-lining argued against poisoning. The gastro-intestinal findings of the post mortem were the terminus as quem beyond which the supposition of poisoning could not be entertained. And it wasn't.

At the time of the Preliminary hearing when there were wildfire rumours of poisoning, there is a sense that the doctors were surprised by this finding. At least, it is my own sense when reading the Prelim transcripts. The possibility of actual poisoning is not pursued beyond the contra-indicative results of autopsy. People lie, a body doesn't.

If you don't understand the process by which faeces holds its liquid component you only need consider what happened if you ever had food-poisoning - diarrhoea happens. It's not useful to use epithets like 'normal'. You need also bear in mind that for autopsy purposes the transit between small and large intestine provides a chronology. Finding hardened or solid faecal matter in both small and large intestine is to say - Mr Borden was not trying to eliminate poison at the time of death nor was he one or two or more days ago (depending on the health of his digestive transit.)

I agree I've probably been too elliptical about the castor-oil. Bowen testified he advised Mrs Borden to use castor-oil. Lizzie is asked what her father was taking and her answer was their own home medicine. Bowen testifies that Borden the day before, to his own face, complained of feeling 'heavy' when laid up on the sofa. My point was, there is often an assumption the Bordens had diarrhoea but the evidence is quite the contrary in the case of Mr Borden.

From Mrs Borden's stomach they hook out undigested chunks of fatty bacon. I just don't understand how she could face that for breakfast, after being nauseous to the point of vomiting. KG, do you?

[InterestedReader]

KG, haven't we seen elsewhere in the press, there was a heightened fear of poisoning at this time? And women-poisoners especially. What you've found though is perhaps the most likely of the cases to be giving people the heebygeebies. The Bordens probably were reading it.

My overall impression of vomiting-testimony (!) is that neither Bridget nor Morse would be drawn on actually witnessing illness in Abby and Andrew Borden. There's a lot of 'They said they'd been ill' or 'I believe they'd been poorly' from both. The concrete details come from Bowen: Abby crosses to his practice Wednesday morn, telling how she and her husband vomited for three hours Tuesday night. Lizzie overhears this illness, according to her testimony. And then it gets very interesting with Bridget. At first Bridget testifies she threw up Thursday morning. From Prelim to Trial a year later, Bridget's vomiting is abandoned. When the Boston Post chase her up for interview at the Harringons the reporter finds an agitated Bridget and interestingly, Bridget wants to dispute she was sick that morning of the murders... "No I wasn't sick, exactly..." We're left to wonder why she found that problematic. All she added was, it was her habit to take a brief rest.

[KGDevil]

Finding formed faeces is at odds with food-poisoning - and many other instances of toxicity introduced into the intestinal tract. The doctors knew this particular to be evidencing strongly against poison. There is no 'incorrect terminology'. Bowel is just a more quotidian term for intestine.

Lizzie testifies her father was taking castor-oil... then the go-to home physick for constipation.

Oh my goodness. Interested, you entirely miss the point I was making. The correct terminology I was referring to is Dr. Dolan's use of the words ‘solid formed feces’ vs. your words of ‘hardened faecal matter’.

Please post Lizzie's testimony regarding her father taking castor oil.

Since we can neither of us poke through Mr Borden's faeces to decide on its solidity will you agree on basic human biology? The fact it was noted to be in a formed state does and did counter against food-poisoning. Likewise the absence of inflammation to the stomach-lining argued against poisoning. The gastro-intestinal findings of the post mortem were the terminus as quem beyond which the supposition of poisoning could not be entertained. And it wasn't.

At the time of the Preliminary hearing when there were wildfire rumours of poisoning, there is a sense that the doctors were surprised by this finding. At least, it is my own sense when reading the Prelim transcripts. The possibility of actual poisoning is not pursued beyond the contra-indicative results of autopsy. People lie, a body doesn't.

If you don't understand the process by which faeces holds its liquid component you only need consider what happened if you ever had food-poisoning - diarrhoea happens. It's not useful to use epithets like 'normal'. You need also bear in mind that for autopsy purposes the transit between small and large intestine provides a chronology. Finding hardened or solid faecal matter in both small and large intestine is to say - Mr Borden was not trying to eliminate poison at the time of death nor was he one or two or more days ago (depending on the health of his digestive transit.)

I agree I've probably been too elliptical about the castor-oil. Bowen testified he advised Mrs Borden to use castor-oil. Lizzie is asked what her father was taking and her answer was their own home medicine. Bowen testifies that Borden the day before, to his own face, complained of feeling 'heavy' when laid up on the sofa. My point was, there is often an assumption the Bordens had diarrhoea but the evidence is quite the contrary in the case of Mr Borden.

From Mrs Borden's stomach they hook out undigested chunks of fatty bacon. I just don't understand how she could face that for breakfast, after being nauseous to the point of vomiting. KG, do you?

Actually, Interested, the lack of fluid bowel movements does not conclusively disprove food poisoning. It depends on the type of tainted food eaten for what sort of symptoms it presents. Some cause diarrhea, some cause vomiting, some cause both. There is also anti inflammatory gastroenteritis. Here is one form of food poisoning.

S. aureus - Vomiting (often projectile) little or no diarrhea, no fever. Symptoms occur within 1-4 hours after ingestion of contaminated food (generally mayonnaise or dairy products).

[KGDevil]

I am currently looking at more poisoning cases that may have been in the news during this time period. This case I posted was right in this time period. Some of the similarities I found very interesting.

[twinsrwe]

Finding formed faeces is at odds with food-poisoning - and many other instances of toxicity introduced into the intestinal tract. The doctors knew this particular to be evidencing strongly against poison. There is no 'incorrect terminology'. Bowel is just a more quotidian term for intestine.

Lizzie testifies her father was taking castor-oil... then the go-to home physick for constipation.

Oh my goodness. Interested, you entirely miss the point I was making. The correct terminology I was referring to is Dr. Dolan's use of the words ‘solid formed feces’ vs. your words of ‘hardened faecal matter’.

Please post Lizzie's testimony regarding her father taking castor oil.

Since we can neither of us poke through Mr Borden's faeces to decide on its solidity will you agree on basic human biology? The fact it was noted to be in a formed state does and did counter against food-poisoning. Likewise the absence of inflammation to the stomach-lining argued against poisoning. The gastro-intestinal findings of the post mortem were the terminus as quem beyond which the supposition of poisoning could not be entertained. And it wasn't.

At the time of the Preliminary hearing when there were wildfire rumours of poisoning, there is a sense that the doctors were surprised by this finding. At least, it is my own sense when reading the Prelim transcripts. The possibility of actual poisoning is not pursued beyond the contra-indicative results of autopsy. People lie, a body doesn't.

If you don't understand the process by which faeces holds its liquid component you only need consider what happened if you ever had food-poisoning - diarrhoea happens. It's not useful to use epithets like 'normal'. You need also bear in mind that for autopsy purposes the transit between small and large intestine provides a chronology. Finding hardened or solid faecal matter in both small and large intestine is to say - Mr Borden was not trying to eliminate poison at the time of death nor was he one or two or more days ago (depending on the health of his digestive transit.)

I agree I've probably been too elliptical about the castor-oil. Bowen testified he advised Mrs Borden to use castor-oil. Lizzie is asked what her father was taking and her answer was their own home medicine. Bowen testifies that Borden the day before, to his own face, complained of feeling 'heavy' when laid up on the sofa. My point was, there is often an assumption the Bordens had diarrhoea but the evidence is quite the contrary in the case of Mr Borden.

From Mrs Borden's stomach they hook out undigested chunks of fatty bacon. I just don't understand how she could face that for breakfast, after being nauseous to the point of vomiting. KG, do you?

Thank you for a much better explanation of where you were coming from; I appreciate your thoughts.

[twinsrwe]

Oh my goodness. Interested, you entirely miss the point I was making. The correct terminology I was referring to is Dr. Dolan's use of the words ‘solid formed feces’ vs. your words of ‘hardened faecal matter’.

Please post Lizzie's testimony regarding her father taking castor oil.

Since we can neither of us poke through Mr Borden's faeces to decide on its solidity will you agree on basic human biology? The fact it was noted to be in a formed state does and did counter against food-poisoning. Likewise the absence of inflammation to the stomach-lining argued against poisoning. The gastro-intestinal findings of the post mortem were the terminus as quem beyond which the supposition of poisoning could not be entertained. And it wasn't.

At the time of the Preliminary hearing when there were wildfire rumours of poisoning, there is a sense that the doctors were surprised by this finding. At least, it is my own sense when reading the Prelim transcripts. The possibility of actual poisoning is not pursued beyond the contra-indicative results of autopsy. People lie, a body doesn't.

If you don't understand the process by which faeces holds its liquid component you only need consider what happened if you ever had food-poisoning - diarrhoea happens. It's not useful to use epithets like 'normal'. You need also bear in mind that for autopsy purposes the transit between small and large intestine provides a chronology. Finding hardened or solid faecal matter in both small and large intestine is to say - Mr Borden was not trying to eliminate poison at the time of death nor was he one or two or more days ago (depending on the health of his digestive transit.)

I agree I've probably been too elliptical about the castor-oil. Bowen testified he advised Mrs Borden to use castor-oil. Lizzie is asked what her father was taking and her answer was their own home medicine. Bowen testifies that Borden the day before, to his own face, complained of feeling 'heavy' when laid up on the sofa. My point was, there is often an assumption the Bordens had diarrhoea but the evidence is quite the contrary in the case of Mr Borden.

From Mrs Borden's stomach they hook out undigested chunks of fatty bacon. I just don't understand how she could face that for breakfast, after being nauseous to the point of vomiting. KG, do you?

Actually, Interested, the lack of fluid bowel movements does not conclusively disprove food poisoning. It depends on the type of tainted food eaten for what sort of symptoms it presents. Some cause diarrhea, some cause vomiting, some cause both. There is also anti inflammatory gastroenteritis. Here is one form of food poisoning.

S. aureus - Vomiting (often projectile) little or no diarrhea, no fever. Symptoms occur within 1-4 hours after ingestion of contaminated food (generally mayonnaise or dairy products).

Thank you, KG! I totally agree with you.

[twinsrwe]

I am currently looking at more poisoning cases that may have been in the news during this time period. This case I posted was right in this time period. Some of the similarities I found very interesting.

I am looking forward to anything you find. I agree, the similarities do make a person wonder...

[InterestedReader]

I suppose one of the more bizarre aspects of the Borden killings is just this - the idea of Lizzie attempting to buy Prussic acid one day then smashing in heads the next. Thousands of words could be written hazarding a guess at just what kind of a murderess she was, but a pretty daft murderess is what comes first to mind. So daft, I just personally incline to the view Bence was mistaken, amid the hysteria of it all. If Lizzie is the killer how does she jump overnight from a poison-plan to a hatchet-plan and do so with enough cunning to ensure no useful evidence against her? The police suspect her of an axe-plan - there they are chasing off to the New Bedford haberdashery where she bought patterns and fabrics for two duplicate but unbloodied garments, just what the well-dressed axe-murderess needs to produce... Do you think she did have a poison-plan, and change it last minute?

It's easier to imagine Abby imagining herself poisoned, while reading the Cable House news...

[KGDevil]

I do believe that she had attempted to poison them. But maybe was unsure of just how long the poison stayed in the system, or how it could be detected. I think she knew that prussic acid was a faster acting poison, everyone knows that cyanide is fast acting, and that did not stay in the system as long so it made it harder to detect. I think the plan all along had been to poison them. I think she did poison them at some point. But maybe the poison did have time to exit their systems by means of vomiting. There have been cases of people swallowing doses of poison but promptly vomiting it back up, so it didn't cause the desired effect (death). This frustrated her efforts. But once she was unable to buy the prussic acid, thus denied the less easily detected method of poisoning, she had to switch tactics. Because she could see from the news reports that the arsenic would have been a dead give away. So, to throw the scent off of poisoning, in case the clerk did remember the haughty woman refused the prussic acid , she went with the more hands on approach. Maybe she realized she had made a huge mistake with Bence. One that could be remembered.

I did find Dr. Bowen's inquest testimony also about the reason for Abby's visit the day before the murders. Inquest pages 115-116.

Q. You had been called that week to the family?
A. No sir, I had not been called. I went over to see them. The day before, Wednesday morning, about eight o'clock, or before eight, Mrs. Borden came to the door and said she was frightened, said she was afraid she had been poisoned. I told her to come in. She sat down, and said the night before about nine o'clock she and her husband commenced to vomit, and vomited for two or three hours until twelve, I understood.

Q. What morning was this?
A. Wednesday morning. I asked what she had eaten for supper, and she told me. She said she had eaten some baker's white bread, and she had heard of baker's cream cakes being poisonous, and was afraid there was something poisonous in the bread that made her vomit.

[irishlass78]

by twinsrwe » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:04 pm

InterestedReader wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:
KGDevil wrote:
...
ABDOMEN. Spleen normal, kidney normal, liver and bladder normal. Stomach and portion of liver had been removed. Lower part of large bowel filled with solid formed feces. Feces also in lower part of small bowel. ....

Thank you, KG, for posting the correct terminology that was used by Dr. Dolan in Andrew's autopsy report, regarding his feces.

Interested, I don’t mean to discredit you, but there is a big difference between ‘solid formed feces’ and ‘hardened faecal matter’. A ‘solid formed feces’ simply means the feces is not hard, soft or runny; it is of normal consistency.

Finding formed faeces is at odds with food-poisoning - and many other instances of toxicity introduced into the intestinal tract. The doctors knew this particular to be evidencing strongly against poison. There is no 'incorrect terminology'. Bowel is just a more quotidian term for intestine.

Lizzie testifies her father was taking castor-oil... then the go-to home physick for constipation.

Oh my goodness. Interested, you entirely miss the point I was making. The correct terminology I was referring to is Dr. Dolan's use of the words ‘solid formed feces’ vs. your words of ‘hardened faecal matter’.

Please post Lizzie's testimony regarding her father taking castor oil.

As Interested pointed out, castor oil was a common treatment for constipation, as was Garfield Tea. In fact, Garfield Tea was marketed as a treatment "for temporary constipation and for relieving sluggish bowels."
http://www.herbmuseum.ca/content/garfield-tea

This is from Lizzie's inquest testimony. She was being questioned about her father's health the day before the murders:

Q. Was he then under medical treatment? 
A. No sir. 
Q. The doctor had not given him any medicine that you know of? 
A. No sir. He took some medicine; it was not doctor's medicine. It was what we gave him. 
Q. What was it? 
A. We gave him castor oil first and then Garfield tea. 
Q. When was that? 
A. He took the castor oil some time Wednesday. I think some time Wednesday noon and I think the tea Wednesday night. Mrs. Borden gave it to him. She went over to see the doctor. 

[InterestedReader]

Hm... When Bowen attempts to call at 92 (we're told by a chagrin'd Lizzie) Borden sends him away with a flea in his ear and upbraids his wife. Borden doesn't seem fearful of poison - or not fearful enough to ask the doctor. Suppose Lizzie is poisoning the couple. Why does she volunteer the information she heard them retching overnight? She's a bad liar, it would be easier to say nothing... The whole poisoning business is no end perplexing. She enters the first druggist across the street, asks for Prussic acid and then - haughtily, yes - denies even knowing the druggist is there... I mean, wouldn't she have to be delusional to think she'd get away with this? Lizzie had ample free time to plan a poisoning. Why didn't she come up with something less blatant and conspicuous than moth-kill in a winter sealskin? (It seems no-one had heard of this method then, either.)

[InterestedReader]

This is from Lizzie's inquest testimony. She was being questioned about her father's health the day before the murders:

Q. Was he then under medical treatment? 
A. No sir. 
Q. The doctor had not given him any medicine that you know of? 
A. No sir. He took some medicine; it was not doctor's medicine. It was what we gave him. 
Q. What was it? 
A. We gave him castor oil first and then Garfield tea. 
Q. When was that? 
A. He took the castor oil some time Wednesday. I think some time Wednesday noon and I think the tea Wednesday night. Mrs. Borden gave it to him. She went over to see the doctor. 

Thank-you, Irish. I remember it being there but couldn't swear to it...!
Borden was using laxatives the day before.

[KGDevil]

Their review of Garfield Tea in the 1892 volume.

Massachusetts Medical Journal: Devoted to Medicine & General Science, Volumes 11-12


https://books.google.com/books?id=yX4T2 ... ea&f=false

[InterestedReader]

If they really were picking up pears where they threw the 'night-soil' Lizzie could've just waited for E. coli to do the job....

[KGDevil]

Castor Oil was also used as a cure whenever someone had eaten bad food. Such as food poisoning.


A Text-book of Practical Therapeutics: With Especial Reference to the Application of Remedial Measures to Disease and Their Employment Upon a Rational Basis.

1892

https://books.google.com/books?id=5zZHA ... ec=reviews

[KGDevil]

Castor Oil was also used as a cure whenever someone had eaten bad food. Such as food poisoning.


A Text-book of Practical Therapeutics: With Especial Reference to the Application of Remedial Measures to Disease and Their Employment Upon a Rational Basis.

1892

https://books.google.com/books?id=5zZHA ... il&f=false

[InterestedReader]

Castor Oil was also used as a cure whenever someone had eaten bad food. Such as food poisoning.


A Text-book of Practical Therapeutics: With Especial Reference to the Application of Remedial Measures to Disease and Their Employment Upon a Rational Basis.

1892

https://books.google.com/books?id=5zZHA ... il&f=false

Yes it was considered a 'purgative' - perhaps due to its laxative effect.

Here in the UK it continued in use as a laxative but very recently it's almost impossible to buy across-counter in the chemist's because of potential abuse by anorexics. (I know this because like many others I used it as a conditioning treatment for long hair.)

[Kevin Luna]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Lizzie deliberately gave her family foodborne illness, aka food poisoning? Maybe not necessarily to kill them, just to get them sick, because she's a psycho c*nt. Or possibly to make them suffer before she smashes their heads in. It does seem like quite a coincidence that the parents get sick right before they get murdered, and there's no evidence of poisoning.

[MysteryReader]

There wasn't any evidence of poisoning by Lizzie or the bakers (Abby wondered about the breads/cakes from the bakery). It could have been the main way Lizzie (or the killer) wanted to do away with Andrew and Abby and when it failed, turned to using the hatchet.