Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I'm curious to see if anyone had any idea of what Rufus B. Hilliard was talking about at the preliminary hearing. On page 361 he was asked if Office Medley was in town.

He said "No sir. I have sent Officer Medley to look after something that the Reverend Mr. Buck placed in my hands".
Mr. Knowlton did not want to speak of it in court.

I was wondering if anyone knows what they are talking about and what the "item" was that they are talking about.

Good question, Nadzieja. As you know, the "item" was some supposed clue in connection the murder, but what the item was is another Borden mystery.

I know that wasn't any help in answering your question.

It might not answer it directly twinsrwe but it's got us thinking!!! That's what's important and that's why there's a forum!!

I agree, Nadzieja, it does get us thinking. It’s odd that Mr. Knowlton, the chief prosecuting attorney, did not care to tell it in court. It sounds to me as though we should look a bit deeper into the good Reverend Buck.

That's a good idea! On my next day of I'll look in Mr. Rebello's book. Off the top of my head wasn't he actually closer with Emma? Isn't that where she went to live when she left Lizzie. Like I said I'm doing this off the top of my head so I could be way off base.

Emma was particularly close with Reverend Buck. I believe that she did go stay with him or his relatives after her separation from Lizzie and Maplecroft.
How would Rev. Buck have had an item in his possession that would be a clue in the case? Unless Emma gave something to him.

Lizzie also could have given him something seeing Emma was in Fairhaven when the crime was committed.

EDWIN AUGUSTUS BUCK, 1824-1903. City Missionary of the Central Congregational Church in Fall River from December 1867 until he retired in 1899 at age 75. With the Rev. Mr. Jubb, he was a strong supporter of Lizzie “almost every day from the time of the murders… until her acquittal”. Born in Bucksport, Maine, his parents were James and Lydia (Treat) Buck. In January 1853 he married Elmira R. Walker of Medway, Mass. After giving birth to five daughters, she died on 16 February 1877. The Rev. Mr. Buck died on 9 March 1903, after a brief attack of pneumonia. His daughter Alice Lydia Buck was a good friend of Emma Borden and “an ardent supporter of Emma and Lizzie Borden during the latter’s trial.” Mr. Buck was Emma’s advisor until his death. After Emma left Maplecroft in 1905, she lived with Alice Buck at least briefly during the year 1912.

http://tinyurl.com/zoleswq

Reverend Buck was Emma’s advisor until his death. There is controversy regarding if the article of Emma’s interview that was published in the Boston Sunday Post, on April 13, 1913, is actually true or not. Here is a partial of the newspaper article:

‘Guilty - - No! No!’
Lizzie Borden’s sister breaks 20-year silence

"The happenings at the French Street house that caused me to leave, I must refuse to talk about. I did not go until conditions became absolutely unbearable. Then, before taking action, I consulted the Rev. A. E. Buck who for years had been the family spiritual advisor.

After carefully listening to my story, he said it was imperative that I should make my home elsewhere.

Before going, I had an agreement drawn up by our lawyer so that no trouble could arise regarding the French Street house.

Although the general public believes that Lizzie owns that house, such is not the case. It is our joint property and so is the land it stands on. Under the agreement we entered into, Lizzie is to occupy the house as long as she lives, and is to pay me rent for the use of my half of the estate. Lizzie is sole owner to the land she added to the original estate.

I do not expect ever to set foot on the place while she lives." Boston Sunday Post, April 13, 1913, p. 25.

However, Revered Buck died in March of 1903, and Emma did not move out of Maplecroft until several days prior to June of 1905. See following link for article of Emma’s departure from Maplecroft: http://tinyurl.com/jkngb5l

Posted by Kat on Nov 01, 2011:

Rebello
Page 312
“After Emma's departure from Maplecroft, an agreement was drafted for Emma and Lizzie.”

Agreement

Whereas Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden, of Fall River, Massachusetts, all equal owners in common of a certain lot of land containing about 34 5/8 rods of land and a dwelling house, thereon numbered 306 French Street, in said Fall River, and also of certain personal property located in said house, said lot being the same purchased by them of Charles M. Allen.

Now therefore we the said Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden do hereby covenant and agree, the one with the other as follows to wit, --

1. Said Lizzie shall have the right to exclusively use and occupy said premises and property as a home and place of residence so long as she chooses to do so during her natural life upon condition however that during such time she shall and does pay all water bills and taxes, make and pay for all necessary repairs in connection with the premises and property, keep the undivided half of said Emma in said premises and property insured against fire in the sum of sixty-hundred dollars ---, also $4,000 on the house and $2,000 on the contents ---, and also pay unto said Emma one hundred and fifteen dollars every six months for such use and occupation, the first payment to be made January first A.D. 1906 for six months in advance. .

2. If said Lizzie shall before her death cease to use or occupy said premises and property as foresaid, then forthwith said house and property shall be put into the hands of Charles C. Cook of said Fall River as broker to sell the same at private sale or public auction as he deems expedient, or in case of his decease, in the hands of some other broker to be designated by Andrew J. Jennings and said personal property shall be divided by the parties, or if they cannot agree upon a division, be sold in the same manner as the real estate, the proceeds of such sale after deducting expenses to be divided equally between the parties.

3. Neither party shall during life except as thereinbefore, provided sell, mortgage, lease or otherwise dispose of her said undivided interest without consent of the other.

4. Said Emma and Lizzie shall each provide by will or otherwise so that in case the said undivided interest has not been sold or disposed of as aforesaid the same shall go and belong to the other if she survives her.

Page 313

In witness Whereof we the said Emma L. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden have hereto set our hands and seals this twelfth day of October A.D. 1905."

Emma L. Borden Seal
Lizzie A Borden Seal

http://tinyurl.com/hsjggf4

It is unfortunate that we don’t know when Revered Buck allegedly advised Emma to leave Maplecroft, but I think the controversy lay in the fact that Revered Buck died in 1903 and Emma didn’t leave Maplecroft until several day prior to June of 1905. I also think another part of the controversy is that in Emma’s interview, she stated that before she left she had an agreement drawn up by their lawyer so that no trouble could arise regarding the French Street house, however, the date on the actual agreement is October 12, 1905.

OOPS! I meant to add this to my previous post.

On Jul 31, 2009, Kat posted:

There are *did-she? didn't she?* camps as to whether Emma gave that 1913 interview. I didn't believe it myself until I found the story in the paper from the previous week about Lizzie- I looked in Rebello and found the headline, from April 6, 1913, page 306, and then ordered it up, compared the items and then wrote about my impressions in The Hatchet *Black & White* issue. (That was a free download at the Hatchet site for a long time- you'all may have it as a PDF in your files.
Vol 2, Issue 4, Aug/Sept 2005, pages 6-19)

Also, I transcribed both articles fully there.

One is:
"Lizzie Borden Twenty Years After The Tragedy"- Boston Sunday Herald, 6 April 1913

The other is:
"Guilty--No! NO!
Lizzie Borden's Sister Breaks 20-Year Silence"--Boston Sunday Post, 13 April 1913

Len Rebello wrote an article for The Hatchet where he puts forth a case of the *interview* as possibly being bogus.

I will say tho, that since he found the author, Edwin Maguire, actually existed- which fact I could not find at the time of my research and article- to me it actually seems even more likely the interview took place. Gertrude Stevenson wrote the prior one from April 6, and I included some bio info on her too.

http://tinyurl.com/h6ptd36

If you happen to have this Hatchet Issue that Kat referred to; it is an excellent article!

Nadzieja wrote:Lizzie also could have given him something seeing Emma was in Fairhaven when the crime was committed.

True. Is it known that Lizzie saw Reverend Buck at any point that day before Emma arrived back to their home in Fall River?
I know that the following acquaintances had been there: Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Russell, Adelaide Churchill.

I've read so much on Rev. Buck today!!! He was a close advisor to both so I'm sure he would have helped them in any way possible. Every time I look up something, then another "something" shows up & I wonder about it. On pg 64 of Mr. Rebello's book --- it was Miss Johnston who received a letter from Lizzie the day of the Borden murders. She destroyed the letter because it, "contained reference to something which in the opinion of the young woman...that might, in the light of subsequent events, be misconstrued.
Ok, so if she received it the day of the murder, it was mailed probably one or two days before. This was when they were all sick, so I can't imagine what Lizzie possibly could have said to upset her. Unless she was venting about her parents and she didn't want it to give people a wrong impression.

There are so many of these little facts that are lost to history, that would enhance the whole story.

I've been trying to research into Rev. Buck and Miss Johnston since reading your post earlier today. Would this have been Elizabeth M. Johnston?

If Miss Johnston received a letter through the mail from Lizzie on the day of the murders, then I too would assume that it would have been sent at least two days prior.

Yes, I looked it up in Mr. Rebello's book & she's listed as Miss Elizabeth Murray Johnston (1861-1907) a principal at the Broadway School in Fall River and Sunday school teacher at Central Congregational Church. She was one of the friends that was in Marion, MA at the cottage of Dr. Handy. That's where Lizzie was going to go on that Monday.

How I'd love to know what was in that letter!

Someone mentioned in an older thread that Lizzie could have been ranting to her friend Miss Johnston about her distaste for Abby or a property transfer or myriad of other incriminating things.

I find it odd that both Alice Russell and Miss Johnston cut ties with Lizzie around the same time (during which Alice had testified about the burning of the dress).

Nadzieja and Violette, I ran across the following forum thread which I think both of you will find very interesting. Be sure to read the entire newspaper article that Allen posted, as well as the entire thread. I think this thread will answer several of the questions you have about the letter Elizabeth Johnston received from Lizzie.

Random Newspaper info.: http://tinyurl.com/gqlykcj

I look forward to hearing your comments...

You may also want to check out this forum thread: http://tinyurl.com/ho5op4w

Great research twinsrwe, I find it hard to believe Lizzie would say something like that concerning chopping wood & the new sharp axe. The other thing is if I was sick, the last thing I would do would be to think of chopping wood.
Also it's probably just me but I have a hard time believing some of the newspaper articles. why? because a lot of them embellished stories to sell newspapers. I can see though why Miss Johnston would be upset if receiving this letter in the morning then hearing about the murders but nightfall. We don't know how they felt about Lizzie either, did she really fit in with all the people that were there in Marion.

I think that there are two Lizzie's, the Lizzie before the murders who didn't entirely fit in and the Lizzie after the murders. I think that she dropped and/or was dropped her old friends, and found new ones who were in the more exciting crowd. Before the murders her money was limited, her actions were limited, but after she could do whatever she wanted and had a lot of money to do it with.

Lizzie before the murders was under the control of her father & stepmother. She also didn't work, but got an allowance to do with whatever she wanted. Her father paid for her grand tour of Europe which was 19 weeks first class accommodations. After she came back to Second St. which was a far cry from first class on a ship. After the trial she was ostracized by just about everyone. Even the people who were behind her during the trial just seemed to drop her. Which I feel bad about because why support her on one thing but she gets acquitted then they ignore her. I got the impression that she was very lonely during her later life.

I too think that she was lonely in the latter part of her life, which I find to be sad really. I think that she did have a few friends, but I'm not sure how close she was with them. I think that throughout her life she was closest to Emma, and we know that didn't end well. (I'm still wondering what exactly went wrong between the two of them).
If she did commit the murders then she ultimately gained everything that she had wanted but at the expense of losing those closest to her.