Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Andrew Borden had lots of farm land in Swansea.

I just verified that Andrew actually had two houses on Gardners Neck Road. The newly discovered building sits on the corner of Hetherington Drive and Gardners Neck Road. I believe this to be the upper farm, though some make this reference to the farm land near Luther's Store at Old Warren Road and Pearce Street. I don't believe this to be true. Andrew had two large farm lots on Gardners Neck road. One was the summer farm house towards the lower part of Gardners Neck Road and the other was up further, north, near the railroad station. I believe this to be what was referred to as the "Upper Farm."

Andrew had built this house in 1883. He built it for his farm hands or a family who worked his land. Yep, cheap flint Borden building a house to help others. He also held an annual clam bake for his workers once a year at his Pearce Street property. Though history has branded him as a cheap miser this was far from the truth. He was very frugal with his money. We all know some one like Andrew Borden. Lots of money and frugal about how they spend it. Just because he did not want to live on the hill or lived a modest life style does not make him ungenerous.

In another article posted in the Fall River Daily Evening news it states that the house was built for Borden's care taker, the man that watched over and ran his farm.

I don't know about cheap - but not having a proper bathroom on the first or second floors for 4 grown women is definitely strange. I think that he was a stern man and what he says goes - and I am thinking that the women in the house were afraid to push the issue of having decent plumbing in that house. He did not seem to me to be playing with a full deck when it came to putting his family first.

MB - presumably the summer house at Gardner Neck was noticeably cooler in the summer than 2nd st. Is that due to breeze off the harbor? Is there still a comfort difference today?

Yes

The farmhouse in Swansea was and still is certainly cooler. My sailing vessel is moored just off the shore which was the Borden Farm in Swansea. The farm swept from Gardner's Neck Road west and down to the shores of the Coles River. If not for the trees I would have full view of the Borden farmhouse from the deck of my sailboat. Of course all the land has been broken up into house lots over the past hundred plus years and streets added.

When I'm at the marina I would call home and discover that it was anywhere between four and eight degrees cooler between the marina and my French Street home. Much has to do with the southerlies which sweep up over Mount Hope Bay into the Coles River and over the land which was the Borden Farm.

Thanks

This is so weird as a teen my friends and I would work picking strawberries around that area in Swansea in spring, for 10¢ a pint to make money.

This is a history of the Borden-Almy (duplex) farm in Swansea, from swanseamass.org.
Testing my ability to upload a photo!

Thanks Kat.

I've been digging around looking for any and all info on the swansea farms. There are a couple aspects of the case that I think are keys to unlocking what happened and how.

Abby's delayed and then unfulfilled plan to visit the Swansea house the murder week is one of those pieces to the riddle solution. I'm toying with the idea that the initial, non-fatal poisoning was a tactic to delay the trip and keep the elder Borden's at the house.

So Kat, any Hatchet or other Swansea info (like this article) are really appreciated!

Here is a map piece of Swansea dated 1895. I hope the attachment is big enough to see 2 notations of A J Borden's properties.

Interesting that in 1895, the property is still labelled as Andrew's vs. Lizzie/Emma Borden. I see Geneva Almy's name near the southern most Borden notation....I was thinking the almy's sold out to the borden's pre-murders?

Could the estate or portions of it still have been in probate? Was there any public data on when probate ended? My husband used to fly fish for striped bass on Lee’s and Cole’s River

In response to camgarsky4, my impression is you would like further research on the Borden family story dealing with the Swansea farm where some motive for murder might be deduced. Thanks to our Harry, I have an efficient way to look things up and post, and will include a news item and testimony.
As we all know, what comes from the newspapers is not always to be believed, so I try to cross-check using real sources. I also don't wish to imply the news account is accurate.

This is a long post...but after searching for the farm I came across the reference to a Lizzie "letter" that has been claimed to have been written by her to Emma Aug 4th and taken to the post office murder morning by Andrew, but also there is another letter, to the ladies at Marion, which, if received by them Aug 4, would probably have been written Aug 3. How that communique was mailed, I do not know, and the newspaper shows some confusion. I did not have to transcribe. Thank you Harry


Evening Standard
Tuesday, August 16, 1892 Page 2
[under the header]
THE WORK OF THE POLICE

…….
“If Mr. Morse has been reported correctly, he expected to dine at the Borden homestead that noon, but some little time after 11 o'clock the servant goes upstairs and rests. The dinner hour is approaching, but so far as can be learned nobody was preparing the midday meal, though it is said the family usually sat down to the table on time. Mrs. Borden was upstairs attending to her household duties and it was not considered that she was not in the kitchen. Miss Lizzie was ironing preparing to go away and the servant was lying down in our own room.
There are many things which the community does not understand in connection with the case, and this is one of them. Another is the statement of the young ladies who have been stopping at Marion regarding Miss Borden's contemplated visit. They are reported as follows: 'As for Lizzie and her father, they were, without being demonstrative, very fond of each other.' 'We arrived on Friday, the 22d of July, and the Sunday before that would be the 17th,' said one. 'I saw her at church and urged her to come when we did, but she said she did not think she ought to. Her father and mother were going across the river, where they had a farm, as they have always done in the summer, and Lizzie said her father, who would be in town every day and get his dinner at home, would be left alone if she went away. She felt as if she ought to stay at home, at least part of the time, to see that everything went all right. Still she was urged to go over to Marion with the party and told that her father could get his dinners at a restaurant or at the hotel, but Lizzie said there were often little things about his business in the way of writing that she could help him on.'
It is known that Miss Borden wrote a letter, which her father mailed on the day he was murdered, advising her friends that she would join them on Monday, the 8th. On Thursday, the 4th, neither her father nor mother had gone across the river to the farmhouse in question, and there was nothing to indicate that Mr. Borden was intending to move that day. If he went on Friday he would have but one day in which to visit there and be at his home before his daughter's departure, and, consequently, she could not be of much assistance to him. It is possible, however, that her friends misunderstood Miss Borden, or that her father and mother changed their plans, thus enabling her to fix upon an earlier date for her visit. The inquest undoubtedly settled all these points yesterday.”
…….
[Lizzie says she wrote to Emma a letter Thursday morning:]
Inquest pgs56+ (13+)
Q. Why did you not go to Marion with the party that went?
A. Because they went sooner than I could, and I was going Monday.
Q. Why did they go sooner than you could; what was there to keep you?
A. I had taken the secretaryship and treasurer of our C. E. society, had the charge, and the roll call was the first Sunday in August, and I felt I must be there and attend to that part of the business.
Q. Where was your sister Emma that day?
A. What day?
Q. The day your father and Mrs. Borden were killed?
A. She had been in Fairhaven.
Q. Had you written to her?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When was the last time you wrote to her?
57 (14)
A. Thursday morning, and my father mailed the letter for me.
Q. Did she get it at Fairhaven?
A. No sir, it was sent back. She did not get it at Fairhaven, for we telegraphed for her, and she got home here Thursday afternoon, and the letter was sent back to this post office.

…………….
As for the farm:

INQUEST
MORSE
pgs105+ (12+) excerpt
Q. Did he ever talk with you about a will?
A. Yes Sir, he has.
Q. When was the last time?
A. Somewhere within a year.
Q. When you were there at the house?
A. No Sir, I think we were outside at the time.
106 (13)
Q. What was the talk?
A. He said he thought he should make some bequests outside to charitable purposes. He did not say any more either one way or the other.
Q. Did he say he had made a will?
A. He did not say .
Q. He did not say whether he had or not?
A. Whether he had or had not.
Q. Did he talk as though he was intending to make a will?
A. I judged from that that he was intending to, I drew my conclusions that he had not, but was thinking of it.
Q. Did he mention the bequests outside he thought he should make?
A. He did not.
Q. How came he to be speaking about it?
A. Common conversation, I suppose, same as about his land. Before he bought the Birch land, I was down there with him. He says lets go up Main street. We went up. He says “here is a piece of property, dont say anything about it, I have got a chance to buy. What is your opinion about it”? I asked what it could be bought for. I dont know as he told me direct, but about. I says “I think it is good property in the heart of the city. The city will be coming towards it all the time. I believe it will be a good investment.” Several months afterwards, one Sunday, he says “John, I did as you told me to”. I says “what is that,” I forgot all about it. “I bought that Birch land.”
Q. I wish you would recall the conversation about the will as explicitly as you have this.
A. That is all he said about the will, he thought of making some bequests out, you know, for charitable purposes. His farm over there, he was talking about the Old Ladies Home, “I dont know but I would give them this, if they would take it.”
Q. Was that the same talk?
A. I dont think it was the same time.
Q. Did he talk to you any other time about a will?
A. I think that is all.
Q. That is the first and last time?
A. Years ago, out West at my place one time, he said he had a will; several years ago he told me he had destroyed it.
Q. How long ago did he tell you he had destroyed it?
A. 15 years ago.
Q. Did he tell you anything about the contents of the will?
A. He did not.
………………….
Witness Statements
pgs. 33-34
MEDLEY
(about Lizzie’s proposed visit to city of Marion and a LETTER)

"Fall River September 12, 1892.
I visited Miss Lizzie Johnson at Myricks on Saturday. She refused to make known to me the contents of the letter she received from
pg34
Lizzie Borden on the day of the Borden murder, until she had consulted Mr. Jennings. I talked with her for two hours, but was unable to make her change her mind. She met Mr. Jennings Saturday night. I saw her again today, when she informed me that Mr. Jennings told her she need not tell me the contents of the letter if she did not want to; and she did not want to. I have seen the other girls who were at Marion at the time. None of them will talk. I have made all this know to Mr. Knowlton, and that gentleman instructed me to procure all their names, and give them to you, in order that they may be summoned to appear before the Grand Jury. The names are as follows; Mary L. Holmes, Isabel J. Fraser, Lizzie Johnson, Louise Remington, Mabel H. Remington."

Thanks Kat...that is exactly some of the information I'm looking for.

Isn't it interesting that on Sunday July 17th, she tells her friends she can't go with them to Marion so she can stay in Fall River to help her dad. The friends leave for Marion on Friday, July 22nd and Lizzie actually leaves town (and her dad) the previous day, Thursday, July 21st. Lizzie and Emma happen to leave 3 days after receiving $2500 each from their dad for Ferry St. Lizzie stays with the mom and sister of a childhood friend for a few days and then returns back to Fall River.

Why didn't Lizzie go to Marion with the friends on the 22nd and return early the next week just as she did? That said, she did pop in on Marion for a day the 26th or 27th.

Frankly, why did she and Emma split up in New Bedford? Why didn't they go to Boston or Marion or elsewhere together and stay in a nice hotel after their real estate windfall?

Back to Lizzie mentioning she couldn't go to Marion so she could help her dad with dinners.....Bridget would have been at 2nd St. to provide meals for Andrew, so not sure how Lizzie would have been of assistance. I get the sense that neither sister did much cooking.

These are rhetorical questions that I'm stirring in the same pot with Abby's planned Swansea visit and the claim by Lizzie that Abby had a guest coming to 2nd St. on August 8th.

I suspect all of these movements, if interpreted correctly, will provide a basis for solving what, why and how happened on August 4th.

Kat -- I found this article you posted long ago that is very similar to the Standard article posted above. However, there are a couple interesting terms used...I've underlined and bolded those words. Is there a chance that Lizzie was only a temporary 'fill in' as secretary of the CES? That the Aug 7th Sunday meeting was a stand alone event for Lizzie as secretary? The other question I have is Mrs. Morse, at Warren. Was she related to John Morse? Have you seen Mrs. Morse, at Warren, referenced anywhere else in the Borden chronicles?

Thx
Steve


Posted previously by Kat:
Sourcebook, pg. 137, Fall River Herald, no date, probably August 20th or 21st, Saturday or Sunday, 1892.
An interview with Mrs. George Brigham:
"...Now let me tell you about the arrangement  for her [Lizzie] outing at Marion just previous to the tragedy.  I was invited to be of that party, and like her I could not go with those who went first, although the fact that she couldn't has been spoken of as so singular.  She couldn't go because her father and mother were going to Swansey.  Her mother was depending upon a certain woman to go with her as a companion, as Mr. Borden spent so much time in town that she would not remain over there alone.  They found they couldn't get the woman and so gave up the idea, and Mrs. Borden told Lizzie to go on with her plans.  Previous to this, Lizzie had promised to act as substitute for the secretary of the Christian Endeavor Society at it's meeting on Sunday--it was an important consecration and business meeting.  Had it not been for this she would have gone to Marion on Saturday, but she would not break her word.  It was early in the week when her mother told her she might go on with her plans, and she determined to visit her mother's cousin, Mrs. Morse, at Warren, for a couple of days, and wrote her to that effect.  She was taken violently ill on Tuesday morning, and Wednesday morning, not feeling well enough, she wrote to Mrs. Morse that she could not come.".....

Sorry, did not see your post...

Inquest
Morse
95 (2)
Q. Where did you come to here first?
A. Warren, Rhode Island.
Q. Who did you know there?
A. I have an Uncle there.
Q. No relative of Mrs. Borden? [current wife]
A. No, brother to my father.
Q. On the other side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then that is Uncle to Mrs. Borden too?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What is his name?
A. Charles.
Q. Charles Borden?
A. No, Morse.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I guess about a year and a half.
`````````````````````````````````
The Mrs Borden referred to secondly is the first Mrs Borden (Sarah).
JVM's (and Sarah's) father Anthony Morse had brothers Joseph, Charles, Gardner and George. There was also a sister Sarah, who seems to have lived only until 20 years old.

Charles (born 1809) married Mary Morrison and had daughters Henrietta and Elizabeth. This is the Uncle Charles Morse, I believe, referred to. As to the veracity of the news item, I cannot prove or disprove.

My notes also state the time JVM lived with Charles would have been 1889,1890-1891.
Then 1891, 1892 lived with Davis.

Thanks Kat. I've read thru 3 times trying to determine if there are two groups of "Morse" in Warren, RI. This was based on the interpretation that the article was implying Abby might go to Warren to visit her cousin.

Extract from article above:
It was early in the week when her mother told her she might go on with her plans, and she determined to visit her mother's cousin, Mrs. Morse, at Warren, for a couple of days, and wrote her to that effect. She was taken violently ill on Tuesday morning, and Wednesday morning, not feeling well enough, she wrote to Mrs. Morse that she could not come."....

But after reading multiple times, it could be stating that Lizzie was planning to visit her mother's (Sarah) cousin, Mrs. Morse. That would fit far better with Morse's testimony and Kat's info about the John Morse "morse's' in Warren. Lizzie also claimed to be ill Tuesday/Wed of that fateful week.

If I am not way off base, this feels like new information.

Kay, what do you think?

My first instinct was to respond that there were, in the news item, what I call, "a lot of she's and hers" in the extracted sentences. I'm not usually giving my opinion anymore, but I will say I think it refers to Lizzie and you are correct in your new interpretation. These are offshoots of Lizzie's Morse side of the family. My notes also state that Charles' wife, Mary Morrison Morse died in 1892. I did not take note of the day. I figured that was why JVM and (possibly) Lizzie wanted to go visit there, in Warren.

Edit here:
Found family genealogy pages handwritten in my collection, states Mary Morrison Morse died July 31, 1892, just before the murders. All kinds of areas for speculation- also remember William Bradford Morse's kids were around visiting from Minnesota that summer, too. These were the kids JVM (his niece and nephew) was supposed to see on Aug 4th at Weybosset St. In the past I had wondered if these Morse's gathering had anything to do with Mary's dying, or even anything to do with the murders: and you may wonder why Lizzie and Emma didn't mention these first cousins in any of their own plans that summer.

Handwritten Morse family genealogy resource extract:
(plz click on pic)

BTW: Mary would have died on Sunday, prior to the week beginning August, which was Monday. This news item makes no sense. I'd think, if Lizzie cared to see Mary, she would have plans to go Saturday to Warren, not to Marion.

Probably what you have accomplished is to show fallacies in news reportage, which is always a good thing, and a learning experience for us all.

Kat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:19 pm BTW: Mary would have died on Sunday, prior to the week beginning August, which was Monday. This news item makes no sense. I'd think, if Lizzie cared to see Mary, she would have plans to go Saturday to Warren, not to Marion.

Probably what you have accomplished is to show fallacies in news reportage, which is always a good thing, and a learning experience for us all.

Hi Kat,

This is my first post, after having joined the forum one year ago, and having lurked for maybe ten years. I have read through much of the former and archived posts, and happened to remember having seen the post below. I have not checked “Find a Grave” myself—wondering if there is a death year now known with certainty for Mary Morrison Morse? If indeed 1892 instead of 1891, this could help to explain John Morse’s visit to the niece and nephew.

By the way, after having read so many of your posts, it is very exciting to me that you are posting on the forum again. It would be a privilege for all is to have the opportunity to trade ideas with you, whom I consider to know more than probably anyone else about the case.

KGDevil
Re: Odds & Ends
Report Quote
Post Fri May 12, 2017 3:47 pm

InterestedReader wrote:
Morse arrives at the Bordens on the 3rd, but where has he just come from?
Do we know this? I can't remember.
You'd think he'd go to aunt Mary Morse's funeral...
Interested, according to the information provided both by the death certificate, and from the information on findagrave that you posted, Mary Morse died on July 31, 1891. The murders took place in 1892.

Hello, nice to meet you!
Do you say there is a death cert for Mary? Is that something that can be shown here, do you know, plz? Thanks!
I did show one source which was the handwritten family sheet. Also, I am not infallible, but I did spend 6 months with our Joe (checks and balances, and at least 2 sources, if possible) working on his very thorough Morse tree that we published in The Hatchet, June/July 2004, Vol 1, Issue 3 pgs 20-21.

That tree design fit the magazine template better than a slightly more complete one, so I will show here a photo extract of one we worked on that has the marriage of Charles. BTW: Joe stated that sharing correct Morse family info is something we should all contribute to if we can, and welcomed changes (with good source), so the most accurate tree can become an important resource.

(plz click on pic)

Hello, again, Jodi (Reasonwhy)!
Thank you for pointing me toward that topic. I found it by searching KGDevil, and scrolling to 2017. There was so much info on those 3 pages this white-haired head is spinning!
Joe and I worked together back in 2004, so I'm surprised at how different those family search site results look now.
I can only assume the death date posted there on the sheet is inaccurate, until another source confirms it.
After Joe passed in 2009, his enthusiasm for all things Morse sort of passed out of me as well.
Btw: I misstated I worked on the tree for 6 months, but I find it was really 3 months after all...
I do still dabble in Borden genealogy, but I use Earl, Weld and "Representative Men..." and family handwritten sheets when possible.
Please don't hesitate to post, for any reason- I do appreciate your "heads up" to a topic I never would have gone looking for. I've mostly been reminiscing by reading old Stay To Tea subjects and enjoying my old comraderie with those gone by, like Harry, Joe, Angel, Judy, William, Audrey/Anthony, Richard and Lee-ann, and having a blast!

Kat,
Hard to know whether it's 1892 or 1891 for Mary's death. Death records, typed or handwritten, can be mistaken; so, too, for FindaGrave.

My own Dad worked doggedly on his family's genealogy, and put up a tombstone for his great-grandparents, and I'm finding now that other branches of the family have death dates which conflict with those he had carved on the stone. All sincere in their beliefs, I'm sure--but, how to know what all those beliefs are based upon?

I'd like to think the correct date is 1892, as that would give Morse a reason for the visit to his niece/attempted visit to his nephew, as well as providing a reason for their travel (from out West, wasn't it?). However, if his Aunt Mary had just passed away July 31st, then does that mean he (and Lizzie and Emma) skipped her funeral? Doesn't fit in very well with John's reputation as being close to his family, does it? So from that angle, 1891 seems a more logical conclusion. So often in this case uncertain records require us to weigh the evidence in this way.

I appreciate your encouragement about posting! It's truly hard to know where to start, since so many sage heads have been pondering here for so long. There surely was a "golden age" in the early years of the forum, with such widely-ranging topics treated with much passion and verve. Most impressive to me was the high standard of substantiation most posters held to: evidence, reasoning, citation (where possible) was--mostly cheerfully!--demanded.

Understand you must miss your former comrades. Their posts made me want to meet many of them. The back-and-forth you had was fun to read, and taught me to think from different angles about Lizzie and what sense I could make of her.

And so I am glad to have entered in, and thank you for the welcome! Who knows? Perhaps we all will share another great age of the forum--there's been some fascinating thinking from newish members, and some wise veterans posting again...and we can try to lure you in as often as possible to give us the benefit of your views.

For those interested, here's where to find Mary Morrison Morse's "FindaGrave" page, and the copy of her death record (research done by former posters KGDevil and Interested Reader, discussed under the topic, Re: Odds & Ends, from May 2017):

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/153 ... mary-morse

download/file.php?id=7180&mode=view

Thank you for the links!
Also, seems you stay up late, as do I
I can't read the stone but looks like a good resource.
I'm sorry, but family sheets at ancestry like to drive me bonkers!
Was just now looking for newspaper obit, but need Stef's help for that.
G'night!

I did consult with Stef Sunday and we looked for an obit or newspaper death notice and did not find one.
It seems reasonable to use the grave stone for corroboration, so we go with that. Thank you again for helping make a correction.
The good thing is Stef need not change the tree printed in the Hatchet because by publish date we 3 had decided to print the less extensive one Joe submitted (it left out the marriage of Charles Morse, for instance).

But agreeing on 1891 as a death year for Mary, still raises questions:
You know, JVM lived with his uncle Charles in 1891. I wonder if she died while he lived there? And if he did, why would he leave Charles after that- you'd think he'd be needed then. And if he moved out before she died and let's say she was sick: again, why would he move out at a critical time?
He moved in with DAVIS in 1891, after leaving Charles!
(Here I go speculating the "why's...did not intend to... oops)

I love your ‘whys’, this case has numerous examples of these lessor riddles which is what make this case so addictive. I’m still percolating on the earlier article. Most of Mrs Brigham’s quote matches Morse and Lizzie testimony. Where it appears to go off track is the reference to visiting her moms Morse cousin. Why and how did the reporter go oddly off track and insert a thought that involved a person who had died previous year? That seems far too specific for it to be a reporting error. I would tend to think the quote is accurate and Ms Bingham got the wrong name of whom Lizzie thought about visiting. If a memory error by Bingham, but accurate reporting, that might suggest that the ‘act as substitute’ part of article is accurate.

The friends of Lizzie at Marion were mostly working teachers. The friends at Christian Endeavor were...? I cannot find if the teachers were also in Christian Endeavor with her, because I used to wonder if they were all on holiday together, that would pretty much be the "roll call" - at Marion. I guess there is no way of knowing. I did not think she had so many friends.
BTW just me being humorous, no reflection on anyone, but I think to myself that a phrase that includes "accurate reporting" by a newspaper is an oxymoron.
Harry was always warning me to be discerning about the press, because he specialized in the newspapers of the time.

I ran a group of weekly newspapers back in the 90’s. You’ve hurt me deeply.

Oh, I'm merely referring to The National Enquirer!
And yet, even they were nominated for a Pulitzer Prize for the reportage of the OJ Simpson case....
This case became famous due to the advent of yellow journalism, as you probably know. Dissertations have been written just on the history of how news coverage was changed.

I’ve not researched the state of journalism at that time, but just googled and looks like some good reading is ahead. Will circle back to this thread after I digest some of these links. Thanks! P.s. thanks for showing me how to edit, already used several times to clean up my posts!!

Sorry Kat, forgot to add my reply!

I appreciate your and Stefani’s effort to try and find that obit or an actual copy of the death certificate.

Like Camgarsky4 said, I love your “why’s.” Your instiable curiosity is a gift to all on this forum.

Yes, if 1891 death date for Mary, why would JVM leave? His attention to relatives doesn’t give the impression he’s just a fair-weather friend.

So hard to understand or ever truly be aware of family dynamics. Very possible that Uncle Charles didn't want John (or maybe anyone) around after she died. I agree, he does not seem like a fair-weather person.