Lizzie Borden Society Forum

HI all! I've been away from the Forum (and Ms. Lizzie) for a long time, but upon finally procuring a copy of "Lizzie Borden Past & Present" I was sucked back in to the mysterious world. I know not many people have read this book as it's price tag of $350-$700 is quite steep, but it is a factually accurate and comprehensive book about the Borden murders. There is no conjecture or theories in it and every fact is completely referenced.
I remembered rumor's about Lizzie having a boyfriend/special male/etc. but in reading Rebello's book, I see that it was one sided. People who knew Lizzie stated that she could barely tolerate this itinerate preacher and this is borne out by her response letter to him after he wrote her in jail. Her attorney penned a letter stating that she did NOT wish to see him, that he should leave her alone, stop writing, and threatened him with further action if he did not. Her attorney stated in the letter that "She [Lizzie] has told me of your previous conduct, and I am surprised that any man should attempt to renew it under the current circumstances." (Rebello, 1999). This got me thinking about how hypothetically, if a man loved a woman who lived at home, and she didn't respond to him, perhaps if he killed her father and step-mother she would be so distraught that she would fall into his arms...
Ok, I'm not in the habit of wild theories, I tend to use the old adage that if you hear hoof beats, think horses, NOT zebras. The simplest solution tends to be correct and I believe in my heart that it was Lizzie (perhaps with Emma's knowledge). BUT just for fun, anyone else ponder this mysterious Curtis Piece?

Possum pie! Kat and yourself in one week (and good ‘ole franz last spring), this is really cool for us relative newbies. I’m away from my Rebello, but I find the reference to prior Curtis behaviors interesting. One wonders how far back his infatuation goes?

camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:53 am Possum pie! Kat and yourself in one week (and good ‘ole franz last spring), this is really cool for us relative newbies. I’m away from my Rebello, but I find the reference to prior Curtis behaviors interesting. One wonders how far back his infatuation goes?

Thanks for the warm welcome! FYI, Rebello page 14. Tantalizing reference to Mr. Piece, but nothing further. As I said there is much gossip, but that is inaccurate much of the time.

Do we know if Curtis Piece was found in a census in any of the area communities? I searched the forum a bit and came up empty handed. That might help verify if he was physically around in 1892.

He lived in Westport, 13 miles to the south-east of Fall River. I haven't tried to see if we know where he was on the day of their death, there isn't enough information about him, but they lived close enough that they had occasional interactions which seem to be concerning church/charitable issues.

Side note - Lizzie visited Westport (July 26 or 27th) with the poole’s to see Augusta Tripp. Maybe she instigated this visit so she could have a final touch base with Curtis! I’ve got my conspiracy juices flowing!

Curtis Irish Pierce was born in on may 18 1850 in Westerly Rhode Island and died in 1940 in Providence.
I found a photo of him on ancestry.com but I can't figure out how to post the photo.

Nice work! What is your guess on his photo age?

Just realized that "Past & Present (pg 14) spells if Piece, but the "Past & Present" index spells his name Pierce.

Fallriver1 -- your info is for a Curtis Pierce. Did you happen to look for a Piece also?

There is a reference to some publication, The Growth of Westport by Curtis Pierce, cited by the
Westport Historical Society that they list as being published in 1893 https://wpthistory.org/2008/04/launching_the_v/

There is also a reference to his death in Providence RI and a photo https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/147 ... ish-pierce

Just wanted to add this last bit in, in case those interested in looking more, Curtis’ cousins on his mother Emily Brown Pierce’s side were living in the same part of Westerly, RI as he had. Here is a link listing some of them http://www.tmsociety.org/thomas/ephraim ... 0.htm#6063

Wow, when I was researching my family on Ancestry.com a spelling error somewhere was a nightmare. Caused many a false lead. Pierce is much more common a surname than Piece I would guess. Anyway, the ominous tone that Lizzie's lawyer took in his letter telling Curtis NOT to come see her adds a bit of mystery. At first blush I may guess that sometime in the past he had heard Mr. Borden was wealthy and started calling on Lizzie. Hearing he was an "Itinerate minister" would have probably caused suspicion. Back in the 1800s, often these men were equated with frauds and charlatans. Mark Twain in his novel Huck Finn discussed the two fraudsters who accompanied Huck on the raft as sometimes working crowds as itinerate ministers. They would work the crowd up into a fever pitch, pass around the offering basket, and abscond with the money. Curtis may have thought with Mr. Borden out of the way, a rich Lizzie was at least worth trying for...

According to ancestry.com https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-co ... 2120:70671 A "Reverend" Curtis I. Pierce is buried across the bay from Westport MA in Rhode Island.
Curtis I, Rev Pierce
Birth Date: 1850
Death Date: 1940
Burial Place: Rhode Island, USA

Officer Medley Testimony:
"I found that Mr. Piece first met Lizzie Borden at the house of Mr. (Cyrus W.) Tripp of Westport, about ten years ago. At that time Piece was a sort of itinerant preacher, and was doing a little in that line in Westport at that time. While he was on speaking terms with her, yet there was not anything to indicate that Lizzie cared for him. I was told by Mrs. (Augusta D.) Tripp (an old classmate and friend of Lizzie's) that Lizzie could hardly tolerate him.

"Mr. Piece told me he first met Lizzie at the home of the Tripp's about ten years ago. Was not intimately acquainted with her; he had not met her in over 4 years and had not written to her in two years before the murders."

Letter from Jennings to Piece, Sep. 1892:
In response to Mr. Piece's letter to Lizzie while she was in the Taunton jail, Attorney Jennings included the phrase....."She has told me of your previous conduct, and I am surprised that any man should attempt to renew it under the current circumstances."

I was kidding about the July 26 visit to the Tripp's, but now after reading this information....maybe there was a connection. A bit coincidental.

Jennings comment about 'previous conduct' indicates that something notable occurred between Piece (aka Pierce) four years ago when they actually met. "renew it" is another interesting term. That wording would imply some degree of relationship, I think.

Thoughts?

I was just reading about him. The spelling of names seems to change with many of the characters in this tragedy.

It seems as though he had a crush on her but it wasn’t returned? I noticed one little blurb that when Lizzie returned from that place where her sister was and was planning to return later, she stayed in Fall River at a boarding house for two days before heading to the Borden home? Lover’s tryst? Maybe she just didn’t like the food at home? I wouldn’t. Who eats mutton in the summertime unless you’re cheapy Mccheap. A stop to “plan”?

But this Piece guy seems to truly care about her which may be a foreign feeling to Lizzie. She’s a study and a half.

MrsColumbo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:31 pm I was just reading about him. The spelling of names seems to change with many of the characters in this tragedy.

It seems as though he had a crush on her but it wasn’t returned? I noticed one little blurb that when Lizzie returned from that place where her sister was and was planning to return later, she stayed in Fall River at a boarding house for two days before heading to the Borden home? Lover’s tryst? Maybe she just didn’t like the food at home? I wouldn’t. Who eats mutton in the summertime unless you’re cheapy Mccheap. A stop to “plan”?

But this Piece guy seems to truly care about her which may be a foreign feeling to Lizzie. She’s a study and a half.

The misspelling could have very easily been caused by misreading the writing of the letter or other references to Pierce.

MrsColumbo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:31 pm I noticed one little blurb that when Lizzie returned from that place where her sister was and was planning to return later, she stayed in Fall River at a boarding house for two days before heading to the Borden home? Lover’s tryst? Maybe she just didn’t like the food at home? I wouldn’t. Who eats mutton in the summertime unless you’re cheapy Mccheap. A stop to “plan”?

But this Piece guy seems to truly care about her which may be a foreign feeling to Lizzie. She’s a study and a half.

There really is a lot of inconsistencies in what is being told. Emma Borden decided to go visit friends one of whom was her dressmaker, another claims that there was an argument or some such between the father and Abby and the daughters, and both went away. There are claims they went to the summer house, another claimed they went to the farm. Mutton would have been a cheap cut of meat and is from older sheep, it’s tough and not popular to eat as it has a beyond gamey taste and smell.

MaryM wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:28 pm

MrsColumbo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:31 pm I noticed one little blurb that when Lizzie returned from that place where her sister was and was planning to return later, she stayed in Fall River at a boarding house for two days before heading to the Borden home? Lover’s tryst? Maybe she just didn’t like the food at home? I wouldn’t. Who eats mutton in the summertime unless you’re cheapy Mccheap. A stop to “plan”?

But this Piece guy seems to truly care about her which may be a foreign feeling to Lizzie. She’s a study and a half.

There really is a lot of inconsistencies in what is being told. Emma Borden decided to go visit friends one of whom was her dressmaker, another claims that there was an argument or some such between the father and Abby and the daughters, and both went away. There are claims they went to the summer house, another claimed they went to the farm. Mutton would have been a cheap cut of meat and is from older sheep, it’s tough and not popular to eat as it has a beyond gamey taste and smell.

MaryM, In digging around a bit, it seems like "PIERCE" is the original/correct spelling. "PIECE" appears to be a misprint.
The inconsistencies are maddening, but think of your own life. If you and everyone you interacted with on a given day had to give full account of what you did and said, and it was compared, there would be inconsistencies. I'm not defending her, I have studied the case for years and hold about a 95% certainty that she did it (there is still that 5% nagging feeling that perhaps it was not her).

My sophisticated analytics model says "90% Lizzie solo, 9% Lizzie was co-conspirator and 1% Lizzie wasn't involved." :)

camgarsky4 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:45 am My sophisticated analytics model says "90% Lizzie solo, 9% Lizzie was co-conspirator and 1% Lizzie wasn't involved." :)

In the "co-conspirator" scenario, do you think it was with Emma, Uncle Morse, or someone else? I always wondered if Emma was knowledgeable and went away so that she wouldn't be suspected, but the whole fight/never see each other again after they moved to the new house makes me wonder...Only something REALLY big would cause sisters to break all ties. The "Lizzie the Lesbian" angle might be strong enough, or perhaps in a fit of anger Lizzie finally told Emma that she had indeed given her father "40 whacks"

If co-conspirator, I think someone else that she brought in with her Wed. night. They both waited until Morse left the house Thur. morn and then went into action.

At a minimum, Emma had to have VERY strong suspicions. I waffle on whether she left the house to avoid the event. That is part of why I'm carefully studying the events and actions the prior two weeks.

As to the cause of the sister estrangement....I think they had an argument about lifestyle and Emma said something like "you killed MY father for this?"
That personalization caused all the pent up friction from the murders and ensuing years to explode and neither was willing to relent. The wording they both used in their Wills indicates a nuanced and complex relationship and I don't think the wording is a happenstance.

Lizzie A. Borden Last Will & Testament:
28. I have not given my sister, Emma L Borden, anything as she had her share of her father's estate and is supposed to have enough to make her comfortable.

Emma's WIll.....
Emma also left $1,000 to Andrew Jennings (will was updated in 1922 while Jennings was alive, he passed in 1923). In the will, Emma thanks Andrew for helping her, Andrew and her mother (presumably meaning Abby), but Lizzie is not mentioned.

The non-Emma/Morse co-conspirator idea is why I was intrigued by your Curtis Piece/Pierce suggestion. It is an odd coincidence that years before, he was introduced to Lizzie by Augusta Tripp and it was Augusta Tripp that Lizzie visited the week before the murders. And then he reaches out to Lizzie immediately after the murders. We have all asked why LIzzie wasn't killed if it was an intruder....will if you were killing them to get Lizzie, you wouldn't want to kill Lizzie.

So I guess Curtis Piece/Pierce is my candidate for the 1% non-lizzie solution! And I have you to thank Mr. Possum.

Curtis Pierce was a "black swan" suspect, but sometimes the obvious isn't actually the truth. We just don't have enough information about him. I put him in the "other" category also...

PossumPie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:07 am
MaryM, In digging around a bit, it seems like "PIERCE" is the original/correct spelling. "PIECE" appears to be a misprint.
The inconsistencies are maddening, but think of your own life. If you and everyone you interacted with on a given day had to give full account of what you did and said, and it was compared, there would be inconsistencies. I'm not defending her, I have studied the case for years and hold about a 95% certainty that she did it (there is still that 5% nagging feeling that perhaps it was not her).

That’s what gets me, we rely on these days evidence being required.. which is probably why I am feeling compelled to play devil’s advocate to debate the tended to be, status quo position. I can’t pick percentages of where I stand as yet as I am simply not sure enough to do so.

Agreed MaryM. It's a fun intellectual exercise to explore other avenues as long as logic isn't stretched beyond belief or extraordinary circumstances are used to try to prove a point. Over the years of being on this forum, I've seen some theories that were logical and plausible, and other theories that stretched credulity to the point of breaking. I enjoy scholarly debate so I jump right in... but I tend to discount any theory that strains common sense.
We know from medical evidence that Abby was killed some substantial amount of time before Andrew. As a nurse, I can point out that the difference in blood coagulation between Abby and Andrew was significant enough to point to 2 different times of death. If someone who belonged in the house (Lizzie or Maggie) didn't kill them, than the actual killer would have had to hide somewhere inside the house for over an hour in full realization that at any moment they could be caught. This strains logical sense. The case would be much more complicated if they were both killed at the same time as we could introduce mysterious strangers who came in, killed them both, and snuck out. BUT to kill Abby, sit in a closet for an hour waiting on Andrew to return, converse with Lizzie, lay down on the couch, then sneak out and kill him is a bit tough to believe.

[From a post of mine a few years back]
The coagulation of blood in the larger pools happened much earlier in Mrs. Borden. The chemical process of fibrinogen converting to fibrin and clotting in large pools can be roughly calculated based on time since spilled, amount of blood, and temperature. The blood in a dead body ceases to be able to clot due to the release of fibrinolysins,
Also, they ate about the same time but the peristalsis through the upper GI tract of Mrs. Borden shows much less digestion than Mr. Borden, pointing to death of Mrs. Borden very soon after ingestion of the food. If she had been killed much later than 9:30 the stomach acid and pancreatic enzymes would have digested her food to a greater extent than was seen in autopsy.
Taken along with the blood coagulation, Andrew had about an hour and a half longer time to live. Abby left to go upstairs about 9:30am with some slip covers for the bed in the room she was found dead in. She more than likely was putting on those covers when she met her death. No one else saw or heard from her after that period. We know time of death of Mr. Borden was about 11:00-11:10am, working backwards, Mrs. Borden was likely killed about 9:30-9:45am.

The LEAST amount of time that occurred between their deaths would be an hour, with the outside amount being more like an hour-and-a-half. Any theory that has someone hiding in house for that long is not plausible