Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hello! A little backstory. I watched the tv movie about Lizzie with Elizabeth Montgomery and found it interesting but limited and somewhat imaginative. It sparked my interest anyway.

So, then, I found William Spencer’s The Case Against Lizzie Borden. It’s a huge book that is really hard to follow sometimes and overly detailed. I found myself confused as to why the author was into, pardon the pun, overkill on such minutiae but gradually it’s coming together for me.

Frankly, at this point, I find it very unlikely Lizzie did this. At least, not alone. My reasons, so far:

1. Bridget/Maggie presence. The odds of not being seen or having some signs of such a bloody killing are celestial. Lizzie would have no idea how this might go. She might be covered in blood. What was her Plan B then? It took nerves of steel to even attempt this ONCE let alone, hang about and do it again.

2. John Morse’s presence. Lizzie had no idea when this guy was going to return. What if nobody had been home when he went on these rather bewildering family visits?

3. Abby herself. How would Lizzie know that Abby wouldn’t scream?

All of this only leads up to complete insanity combined with very exceptional lying abilities and a cool resolve which I do think Lizzie possessed but I don’t think it’s completely reasonable. Someone with at least some experience wielding a weapon would be a more likely culprit.

This brings me to what I’m sure has been discussed ad nauseum but I’m kinda leaning towards John Morse doing the actual act.

It’s possible, in reading testimonies, that Abby was not “dusting randomly” while he and the father were visiting. We only have Morse’s word for that one. It is very likely that Abby went upstairs to straighten Morse’s room instead. Morse could’ve made any excuse to go up to the room after 15 minutes or so, kill her, wipe himself up with the handkerchief found upon Abby’s body and come downstairs and make his grand exit. He’s clearly seen with Mr. Borden by Bridget leaving through the kitchen and out the back door, so that’s covered.

Now, all he has to do is be Mr. Total Recall on his travels (the conductor’s #? Really?!) to pretty much nowhere until he figures Mr. Borden will be returning. The only problem he has is getting in and out of the house to munch on pears after killing Mr. Borden.

I’ve forgotten if the cellar door was open or not. If so, there’s your answer. Otherwise, he could’ve come in through the kitchen door which was unlocked at that point, yes? I think so. OR, Lizzie let him in and kept her mouth shut.

So, he either waits for Borden or Borden’s already home, bludgeons or hatchets him to death, waits until the discovery in hiding, gets outside either through the cellar or kitchen door and does the old, “Oh, I was just returning. What happened?” Routine. There were people darting all over the place by then and his appearance wouldn’t be noticed greatly. Those pears bother me as does his not seeing so many people or recall seeing them. Of course he didn’t because Mr. Borden’s death wasn’t fully announced yet. Just enough people whose only thought was getting inside that house.

Testimony from the Dr backs that up. He only noticed what was in front of his face which is understandable.

His motive? My money is on hearing from Lizzie repeatedly how unhappy they are with their step mother and stifling father. How empty their lives are and so on. Is there any mention of sexual abuse or any abuse other than super controlling behavior by their father? It was an empty life with no way out and who best to turn to but their beloved uncle who was their also beloved mother’s brother?

So, for motive? The love he had for his nieces and possible hatred and simmering resentment of his uncle’s financial success and discomfiting marriage to someone NOT his sister.

Just my initial thoughts.

My first exposure to the story was the Elizabeth Montgomery movie as well, and just took it as fact what the movie alleged. I think you’ve made some good points, I find it increasingly harder to believe she killed her father and Abby. And women’s uncle being concerned about his sister’s daughters being disinherited is plausible. Thing of it is, is there any way of knowing whether Abby gave Bridget the orders to clean the windows before Andrew and John Morse left? I have watched a number of videos on YouTube and read various articles, reviews and theories over the past number of days, and have heard, read the occasional speculation about Bridget not having locked a door, as well as the relatives Morse visited giving conflicting statements of when he arrived or left.

Hi Mary!

Good questions and ideas…..here are a few potential roadblocks:
1) Mom and daughter Emery told police that Morse left their home around 11:20, after Andrew was killed.
2) Lizzie claimed and acted as if she had nothing to do with Morse, it was Emma that had the close relationship. Are you thinking that was a long term
hoax?
3) The only 'interesting' detail that Morse testified or gave in witness statements was the 6 priests on the car with him. Another car conductor also
recalled the priests. Zero proof of any badge or cap #'s.
4) Andrew had given the sisters $5,000 ($150k today) for the Ferry St house on July 18th…..just a few weeks before the murders.
They could have easily moved out if the home life was so difficult.
5) Lizzie talked to Abby AFTER Morse had left the house.

All that said, these are fantastic ideas for someone new to the subject. Don't give up on "Case Against Lizzie Borden"....this case is so complex, that diving into the details is the only way to form a cohesive theory and that book is thorough.

Keep the ideas coming!!

Thank you! My newbieness is alive and well.

1. That does blow things unless they were wrong about the time. I know it’s far fetched but it’s also made clear that Andrew’s daily schedule rarely wavered so it’s not super crazy if Morse adjusted the clocks during his visit. We have about a 20 minute window from when Andrew died and when he was found dead. Again, we also only have Lizzie’s words that she tended to him. Or was that witnessed? I also don’t think it’s impossible that Morse killed Abby and Lizzie killed her father for a variety of reasons.

2. I don’t know who gave us any factual evidence that Morse was closer to one than the other sister. It could very well be they communicated privately.

3. Somewhere in this forum someone said the conductor’s badge # and car # was known to Morse as well as the 6 priests. Whatever the case, the police indicate in interdepartmental correspondence that he was a tad “over prepared with details.” And he was. Regardless, if that is true, then he knew something was up or he wouldn’t have CYA’d himself so thoroughly. Rarely do people have such keen memories.

4. Didn’t they sell it back? It states in transcripts that it was too much trouble and they barely broke even. In addition, there’s clearly control issues in this household. Two women still living at home at that age sends off a lot of red flags eve considering the era. I don’t see either of them being independent-minded to go off on their own. Which brings up the almost jail-like practices of keeping everything locked inside the home. Lizzie and her father each locked their doors at night or when not in use and only Emma was allowed to clean upstairs. No one ever entered Lizzie’s room to clean ever. That’s weird.

What were they all afraid of? Abby?

5. I don’t recall that one. Can you remind me what they talked about and when? Abby and Lizzie that is, after Morse had supposedly gone? Maybe he didn’t. One thing that bothers me is how protective Lizzie was of the pressing room. It was locked for no apparent reason and she was quite annoyed to have to get the key to open it upstairs. Perfect hiding place for Morse who could’ve circled back.

What galls me is that no one in that era really knew what time it was! An hour late for the dentist and no one cares? How they ever made it to the train in time is a wonder.

This could all be Occam’s Razor but I just don’t see Lizzie taking these particular risks especially when they had a house guest unless she needed that house guest.

The tobacco is another interesting shift. Andrew didn’t seem the type to waste money on that nor find it to be a good habit. It’s never mentioned but once when the police officer said it was found opened and used and was the white pkg Andrew was carrying on his tour through town. The very first thing he does is go upstairs to put it in his room which is then locked. Who does that?!

And where are all the pear rinds?!

To clarify. Morse adjusted clocks where he was visiting or said something like, geez, it’s later than I thought, blah blah and left earlier than 11:20. It’s very easy to confuse people or to get them to remember something that isn’t true.

Oh, about the window washing. I can’t get a clear lead on that one either. It’s been told a couple of different ways. Bridget is no help at all with that. Which brings me to another thing. Who would take on something like this with Bridget messing with the windows and nobody really sure if she’s going to use the kitchen door or the barn? This would all make a lot more sense if she did it. She could’ve washed herself off while doing the windows and nobody would’ve noticed. Including her hair.

MrsColumbo wrote: ↑Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:35 pm
Oh, about the window washing. I can’t get a clear lead on that one either. It’s been told a couple of different ways. Bridget is no help at all with that. Which brings me to another thing. Who would take on something like this with Bridget messing with the windows and nobody really sure if she’s going to use the kitchen door or the barn? This would all make a lot more sense if she did it. She could’ve washed herself off while doing the windows and nobody would’ve noticed. Including her hair.

That was a poser for me as well, I can’t fathom
Lizzie deciding to commit these murders when Bridget could have witnessed, walked in any minute. So much doesn’t make sense about what we know about the killings, and even how the police investigated them

Mary's -- Love your enthusiasm.

Ms. Columbo -- to learn about her talk with Abby, please read Lizzie's inquest testimony. Regarding house environment, it was clearly not loving, but there is no indication that it was forced repressive. Lizzie was free to come and go as she wished...her testimony makes that clear. Maybe the house had super dark secrets, but I have not read of any proof that this was the case. Regarding Morse and Emery testimony/statements regarding his visit you can find that information in the "primary documents" section of the Lizzie Borden Virtual Library website.

Your insight on tobacco being the parcel Andrew brought home is new information to me. What is the source?

Thanks, I will re-research that. Very much appreciated. However, it is, again, only Lizzie’s testimony we have to go on. It doesn’t make it fact. I, for instance, do not believe there was any note from a sick friend so that indicates to me that, for reasons unknown, she headed into improvisation territory.

For me, everything went fairly smoothly during Abby’s murder. That can be looked at with some confidence from a few different angles but then things get weird. Something didn’t go as planned so the whole “went to the barn for iron and ate some pears in a hot barn for 20 minutes” had to be inserted but that one makes little sense to me. I’m leaning towards Lizzie playing a part in her father’s murder by necessity now.

If I go down the road that the murderer was known to both Lizzie and Abby then that person had to still be in the house when Andrew’s dead body was announced by Lizzie. She was standing at the kitchen door which leads me to believe she was, firstly, getting Bridget in the picture and having her in shock which enabled Lizzie to get the real culprit out.

I also have a ton of issues with Bridget, however, and that lame lying down on her bed in the attack part. It was simply too hot. The temp may have only been 85 degrees but an attic contains all the heat for dayyyys. Not a good recipe for relief especially when fully clothed, including shoes, which is odd in and of itself.

I also checked with a doctor friend who said that food poisoning was commonplace at that time. Food preservation or safety controls were nonexistent especially during the summer. It wouldn’t surprise me that Lizzie, who is not stupid, went to the drug store just to see how easy it might be to get poison. My money has always been on Abby being thought to be the poisoner. Once rid of those daughters, she’d inherit everything, most likely, or so the sisters believed. Pure speculation of course but I find it very strange how little we know about Abby herself. She played her cards close to the vest at all times.

The reference to tobacco being the parcel Andrew was carrying and that some of it had been used is in statements made by police on the scene after entering Andrew’s room. From William Spencer’s “The Case Against Lizzie Borden”. It’s a compelling read once you get through the slog of the author measuring every tree and bush but the testimonies, of which many are lost, as I’m sure you know, are taken from quotes given to reporters or in communication between various authorities.

It always struck me as odd that almost all witnesses say him carrying a small parcel about 7” x 4” (or so) but little was said about it and then it finally showed up in text. I’m not through with the book and have just passed the preliminary hearings and now going into the trial itself so more may be recorded but I’ll try and do a text search on the electronic version of the book for the exact quote for you.

Tobacco . Here’s one reference from on-the-stand testimony:

“Dr. Dolan’s absence from the stand did not last long. He was recalled by Adams and asked if he had brought the keys mentioned in his earlier testimony. Dolan said he did and added, “Everything is just as I got it, I have not opened it,” apparently indicating Dolan brought a container with all of Andrew’s effects. Removing the keys, Dolan showed the large key he had mentioned. There was another separate key that Dolan had not previously noticed and several keys apparently on a ring. Strangely, also present was a partly used package of fine-cut chewing tobacco, despite the fact that Andrew supposedly did not use the product.”

— The Case Against Lizzie Borden by William Spencer
https://a.co/bLbJhmA

And this:

“Overall, let us concede that Andrew J. Borden was not a “nice” man. Even in death, not one person interviewed began with, “Oh, he was very nice,” or words to that effect. Andrew was not affable. He certainly was not humorous. He was not open. He was stubborn and closed-minded. While often described by authors as “penurious,” “parsimonious,” or “niggardly,” closer scrutiny shows these adjectives to be too harsh. He did not smoke or drink, although some chewing tobacco was found on his person after his death. One would not say, “Let’s invite Andrew Borden in order to spice up our party.””

— The Case Against Lizzie Borden by William Spencer
https://a.co/8SoEfzm

Now, what confuses this for me is that at no time did anyone mention finding this tobacco until after a trip to Andrew’s own room. So, it was either not seen at first on his body when inspected or added later to his effects after testimonies saying they’d seen him carrying a white pkg. I find it difficult to believe he would keep it on his person in front of his daughter. It’s also strange for someone to chew tobacco when they’ve indicated they weren’t feeling well but it’s the only item that represents a package seen by many. Very odd.

A couple things I didn’t know:

1. Bridget Sullivan (both maiden name and married name, 1905) received an unknown amount of $ from, presumably, Lizzie, which enabled her to return to County Cork, Ireland. She never was known to say one word about what happened that day. She returned to the US and lived in Montana. Work unknown at present but she did have, at that time, a sizable amount of money. Roughly, between different sources, $3000-8,000. That’s about $50k in today’s money and a sizable amount for a kitchen maid. Hush money?

Pictures show Bridget was also quite formidable, size-wise. I don’t know why but I had the impression she was tiny, timid and shy. Not so. And a hair trigger temper.

2. The Andrew Borden timeline is quite fluid but even more so when you add in a little reported trip to the barber. “It is claimed by some that he got a shave at Pierre Leduc’s barbershop that morning. This must have also occurred before going to the bank, for the same reason. There is no testimony or police record as to this visit, but it is in some newspaper accounts. It makes sense that Andrew did so. First, it was his habit to do this. Also, it would have been two days since his last shave. It would seem that a half an hour might have been sufficient for the two stops, but does not seem out of the question it could have taken longer.”

— The Case Against Lizzie Borden by William Spencer
https://a.co/a5Qq7HO

3. I’ve read it a few too many times now but from what I can see, no one actually saw Andrew Borden’s dead body until almost 11:30 when Dr. Bowen arrives.

So, that alters things a bit for me.

AB leaves Borden home 9:05-9:10 am
AB goes to post office 9:15-9:20?
AB goes to barber 9:20-9:50
AB goes to one of two banks and is seen around 10:00
AB goes to his rental property @10:20?
AB visits with Cleg somebody who looks at the City Hall clock and it’s about 10:30.
AB heads for home, getting him inside about 10:40 or so

At that point, per Lizzie’s testimony, and I believe it, she uncharacteristically comforts him or, in my view, puts him to sleep.

We have to wait another 15 minutes before Bridget hears the city clock strike 11 from her bed in the attic (still odd but ok).

@11:10 (how does Bridget know this time?), Lizzie hollers for her to come down, something's happened to her father. She sends Bridget out to get a dr.

This is when it gets interesting. At this point, AB has been home 30 minutes, roughly. It is possible, entirely possible, that Morse could have arrived in that time frame and let in by Lizzie.

More time passes as Bridget comes back to say dr isn’t home. Mrs, Churchill sees Lizzie at kitchen door and is told what happened. mrs. Churchill is in/out of the Borden home at least twice. Once to send for help, once to go home for something.

Not until between 11:20 and 11:30 does Dr, Bowen actually see the dead body of AB. He indicates early that the “body is still warm as an alive person.”

Then, about that time, Morse “comes back”, wanders around, eats a pear or two and then all heck breaks loose. I would surmise that he goes outside, helped by Lizzie, to compose himself or clean up within that time frame. While everybody’s looking for a Dr, iow, AB is being killed. By Morse, with an assist by Lizzie.

Lizzie was only really charged with killing her father so she can say with great confidence that she did not.

What’s really weird is Lizzie’s lawyer who states, in his closing arguments at the preliminary hearing: “Jennings processed the various testimonies to deduce that Andrew arrived home that morning between 11: 45 and 11: 50 and that, twenty-five to thirty minutes later, the alarm was given as to the murders. Jennings subtracted the various events accounted for, such as the time between Lizzie calling Bridget Sullivan downstairs and John Cunningham calling Marshal Hilliard.”

— The Case Against Lizzie Borden by William Spencer
https://a.co/39zeArR

Typo? It’s a huge one if it is. But, it does bear thinking that, in those times, clocks were borderline useless. Even the town hall clock, we have one in our town, could be off by as much as a half an hour. Ours still is. Very few could afford an expensive timepiece. But, the dr could have. Did he look at his own watch or go by others’ testimonies? Or the Borden clock which could be way off. I put little store in the validity of exact timelines in this goofy case.

I should eat. Those pears are making me hungry.

I never understood that whole scene - in and around that tiny area of Fall River - I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden people are looking at clocks - remembering a strange looking man - not seeing anybody here or there. Looking at water lilies , seeing a stranger next to a certain tree.

Noticing this and that, all within a half hour or more. People plucking pears going in barns looking for murder weapons that Lizzie herself guides the police where to find them via the maid. Uncle John noticing 6 Irish Priests on a horse car - remembering the number of the car - ( ok that part I understand ) but Morse remembering the badge # on the Cap of the conductor ? Na - don't think so. Morse in my humble opinion had legs and Weybosset St was about a mile away. Not necessary to take a car - but you sure can look at numbers and jot them down - IN A NOTE !

What great points! I hadn’t thought of him looking at the horse car or whatever and just writing it down. Morse was way too exacting in his details.

If I asked you what you did yesterday I doubt if anyone could describe things with such precision and we have clocks in our face everywhere.

The other thing is, if AB was so exacting and regular in his movements in town and at home, few would “verify” the times he came and went. They’d ASSUME it. It was more that Andrew Borden set the time by his habits and those at home and elsewhere were expecting it was at that time.

It was a normal day before anyone made the discoveries so I agree, why would everyone be so alert to be looking at clocks everywhere and then remembering it so precisely? The fact is they didn’t. Except for the bank people who are exacting by nature but again a lot would be assumed. Mrs. Churchill who was looking out her window and was the first to see Lizzie at the kitchen door I do believe. She was the Gladys Cravitz of that neighborhood so she may know particulars very well but the exact time? Doubtful.

Right now, if I guessed what time it was I’ll bet I’m 30 minutes off. Let me check. Nope! An hour off.

Gotta run.