Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was always in the frame of mind that it had to be a family affair because Abby is killed, but maybe not - and I know this is not a new theory, so I apologize, but would like to know your thoughts on this -

Someone is there specifically to kill Andrew, could be a hired killer, could be a personal vendetta. They vaguely know the layout of the first floor. But have no clue about the second. Haven't figured out exactly the window of time they could get in through the side door. Big concern for making this fit the facts we can trace. If John Morse or Bridget don't let them in, that gets really tricky. But they make their way to the parlor either before John comes down to the sitting room or just before Abby comes downstairs. The Bordens keep their doors closed - not unusual for the time, btw, was a standard method of controlling the temperature in the more heavily used rooms. No one is checking the parlor.

The killer can hear Andrew's voice but also John and Abby's in the dining room, so looking for a place to hide until Andrew is alone, heads upstairs and almost miraculously in this closed off place, there's an open door! The Guest room. The killer slips inside, closes the door behind them. It's a comfortable place to wait, maybe they even lie on the bed. They hear Lizzie go downstairs. Then they hear someone coming up the stairs. They position themselves behind the door, just in case and...we all know what happens next. Despite the brutality of the murder, they have no hatred towards Abby, they only want to kill Andrew, but they're all nerved up and have never killed anyone before and make a total mess of it.

They stay in the guest room with the door closed, listening to the comings and goings, dealing with the stench because they don't dare open a window. When finally, they hear Bridget letting Andrew back in. They wait until they hear silence, then creep carefully downstairs. The door from the front hall is open and they can see Andrew on the settee. Lying face up with his head tilted slightly towards the window. He could see them if he opens his eyes but they remain closed. Not knowing who else is around, they make a quick check of the parlor and dining room, possibly seeing Andrew's coat and taking it to shield themselves from more blood spatter. All clear. Not knowing how much time they have, they make everything much quicker, striking full-force blows from the start.

They have enough time to finish the job, neatly fold and tuck Andrew's coat under what's left of his head, even wash up a bit in the sink by the side door, then slip out in a brilliant bit of accidental timing just before Lizzie comes back from the barn.

Is any of this plausible?

It is plausable. Somehow, I think either one or both sisters knew. Maybe the killer was hired to murder Abby. They panicked when they saw Andrew sleeping and killed him.

Hi again WFordII!

That is plausible, too. Hmmmm...

Do I have this right? John Morse was downstairs first, then Bridget, then Andrew, and Abby was last one he saw join. She is downstairs dusting until just before John Morse leaves. If she is downstairs with the John and Andrew and John says the last time he saw Abby she was dusting in the front hall, while Lizzie, who comes down after John leaves says Abby had already been to the guest room and made the bed...
And the bed got made, one way or the other.
And Abby is dusting again in the dining room (what kind of clean freak was this lady?)
Had she made the bed before she John first saw her - in other words had she gotten down the back stairs and then up the front stairs without being seen by John while he was in the sitting room? Because she couldn't have made the bed while he was still in it.
Or did she go upstairs just before John left about a quarter to 9a and come downstairs and start dusting in the dining room again before Lizzie comes downstairs.
I'm a flibberity-gibbet and confess I often start one household chore, get distracted, do another and realize I haven't finished the first one. So that's not a foreign idea to me.
Just mulling over which seems more likely. Did she get across the first floor sight-unseen or did she interrupt her chore in the bedroom, and then go back up when she realized she'd forgotten to change the pillow shams?
The first one would work with my scenario above.
The second one throws it in the trash.

The second scenario fits in my mind, too. Do you think Morse resented Abby for marrying AJB and enjoying what should have been things for his deceased sister?

I think Morse's motivation could be his protective feelings more for his nieces than anything else. I could see Emma going to him and laying out a case that her father had prevented her and Lizzie from getting married and each having a family of their own, which I think at least Emma wanted, and had held their inheritance over their heads to make them comply. And now was giving that inheritance away piece by piece. If she appealed to his sense of fairness, and then he had a talk with Andrew about it and Andrew refused to budge, things could have escalated.

DanKat -- responding to your opening post. You will find a very similar writeup if you go to the Lizzie Borden Virtual Library website. Click on Primary Source Documents, scroll to the bottom and open up and read "The Mystery Unveiled" by Todd Lundy. This relatively short writeup was written immediately after the trial. The author describes (somewhat sarcastically) the layer upon layer of pure luck an intruder would require to have pulled off these murders. Your post read very similar to me.

I think you are also asking if Abby went to the guest room twice that morning. First trip to make up bed and tidy room. Second trip to put on new pillow shams. The answer is that Lizzie testified this happened and Bridget also testified that Abby mentioned the room needing new shams. For Abby to know the shams needed replacing, Abby would have to have already been up to the room as Lizzie described.

THANK YOU!!!!!!! Sometimes I miss the obvious, and that Abby thing is a big 'un!
It is crazy unlikely that someone could commit this kind of gruesome crime and not be seen, heard, or caught.
And yet...

Am thinking of writing a darkly comic novel where the killer is a left-handed ghost at this point. It's the only thing that really fits.

Btw, the blood spatter experiment is still on the table. Quite literally on the table in front of me leaking strawberry syrup.
Need a day when it's not raining so I can put the dogs outside and leave them there for a bit.
Hopefully soon!

Another random question - did anybody see Bridget vomiting in the yard?

Did the maid next door mention it?

No one living saw Bridget actually vomiting in the back yard. However, I think there is a very strong clue that she did get sick outside slightly before 9am.

If you read Mrs. Churchill's testimony, she shares that she saw Andrew leaving via the side door around 9am the morning of August 4th. She was clear that she saw Andrew at the bottom of the steps that led to the backyard/barn, versus the steps that went directly towards Second St. She said he was peering into the backyard and then pivoted and went to Second St. I can imagine that when AJB walked out the side door, he heard that yucky, but familiar noise of someone being sick and looked to see what was up.

Since around 9am matches perfectly to when Bridget said she went out to the backyard to vomit, this feels pretty solid supporting evidence to me. Additionally, Bridget said she did not see Andrew leave even though she was in the kitchen except for when she was getting sick. That would also match with her story.