Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hello there. I am brand new to this forum and have been reading through many posts the past few days and weeks.

I got interested in learning more about this tragedy while on vacation last month. I think I read a Reddit post that piqued my curiosity. So far I have read Rick Geary's graphic novel and David Kent's Forty Whacks. In addition to reading the posts on this forum, I've listened to a couple podcasts. So I have a general gist of the facts of the case, but nowhere near the knowledge many of you have. I haven't attempted to read through the trial transcripts, for example.

Still, I have so many thoughts I'd love to discuss!

I read in a couple places that after returning from New Bedford and before returning home on August 3, Lizzie stayed for four days in a boarding house. Is that verified? If so, how odd. I wonder if that was a routine thing that Lizzie did or something caused her to not want to return to the house. Or perhaps she was asked to "stay away" while some tensions were unresolved? This solitary prelude is very mysterious to me.

Cut to the day of the murders. I was immediately impressed by the fact that the women managing the house, Bridget and Abby, were up and about by 6:00-6:30am, taking care of the morning meal and sorting out the day's chores. Both were recovering/in the midst of a stomach virus, too. These were hardy women! Then there's Lizzie, the fully grown daughter, not coming down until at least 9:00am, keeping to herself. Her biggest task that morning was ironing some handkerchiefs. This is a *child's* chore. I used to be given this job when I was 8 years old or so. And, if you believe Lizzie's version of events, she still hasn't accomplished this task by 11:00am! Was this just how it was for Lizzie on a day-to-day basis? If I were Abby, I would be so annoyed by a 32 year old woman living in my house who was kind of...lazy?

Another testament to how Lizzie may have been coddled is that she was administered sedatives immediately and for days after the incident. What about Bridget and Emma? Weren't they in need of treatment for shock? Wasn't it Emma who ended up cleaning up the blood from the murder rooms? That takes a strong constitution. Was it a pattern that Emma would just "suck it up" and do what was needed while not much was expected of Lizzie?

One last thing. Referring to Bridget as "Maggie". I've read different explanations for this, including it being the name of a previous servant. I doubt that really. The vibe I get from this is Maggie is a generic Irish name and Emma and Lizzie couldn't be bothered to see Bridget as more than a random servant. Definitely not a fully realized human with a given birth name. It was definitely an asshole move but if true, makes it less likely that Lizzie would bring Bridget into the plans or cover them up. Bridget was nobody to her.

Ah it felt good to get those thoughts out!

Thanks for indulging this newbie!

Eileen -- Welcome to the forum!

Good questions and observations.

To start, there is ZERO contemporary or primary source information that tells us that Lizzie did anything other than go straight home after returning from her days in New Bedford with the Pool's. I too have seen the 4 days in a boarding house story you mention. Perhaps the originator got confused and incorrectly described Lizzie's housing accommodations while she stayed at 20 Madison, New Bedford with the Pool ladies for five nights (July 21 - July 26). You can safely expunge that 'fact' out of your Lizzie knowledge base.

You make a great observation about how long it seems to have taken Lizzie to iron only a few handkerchiefs. I didn't realize it was a child's chore (I'm a guy and usually got stuck with the garage or yard jobs) ....thank you for sharing that perspective.

If you want an thorough and, more importantly, accurate understanding of the case, I would recommend "The Case Against Lizzie Borden", author William Spencer. The errors I have found in the book are minor, especially in light of the amount of information the book provides. It is a very large book, but my copy has been opened so often that the binding has finally given out.

I have information on the Maggie topic, but will need to dig around to find it. There are a couple points of view why the sisters chose to call Bridget.....Maggie.

The forum has been slow lately, so please post any and all questions you might have. There are a couple of us who check the forum frequently....we'll make sure you get feedback swiftly.

Thank you so much for your feedback! Great to know that the boarding house stay seems to be stuff of legend. And thank you for the book recommendation. I will definitely check that out next!

Eileen -- the thread noted below has a pretty good discussion on the maggie topic. I haven't found the thread I was thinking about....will post if I ever come across it.

Thread name....."Has this ever been addressed?"

Thank you. Interesting discussion. Not a lot of sources. Maybe I am judging Lizzie‘s intentions too harshly. But given this period of time in American history, when Irish immigrants were subject to widespread discrimination (“No Irish Need Apply”), it seems at least possible that calling Bridget “Maggie” was not a term of endearment. Also may not have been malicious. Just careless, or thoughtless. A way of “othering” her, unconsciously or not. The point might have been their own amusement. It’s been pointed out that Lizzie seemed to have good relationships with her servants at Maplecroft, bequeathing them sums upon her death. I do not take that as proof that therefore she treated Bridget admirably. Over the course of 30 years, Lizzie may have grown more emotionally mature and was able to respect those she employed more sincerely. Admittedly, without more sources to shed light on this, we are left to puzzle on this!

The best sources on the use of "maggie' are the testimony transcripts of Emma, Bridget and Lizzie (Inquest). That is pretty much it.

I think the term usage was what you touch on.....A way of "othering" her. Probably unconsciously.

My perspective is that the sisters being rude (or not), doesn't increase or lessen the odds that they were involved in the deaths of their parents.

The other possibility which is touched on in the thread I can't locate, is that maggie was a more common term for house servant at that time and location.
Jennings Journals. Page 71
Benjamin Cowgill statement to Attorney Jennings.
Cowgill Benj Keeps Boarding House on Second St formerly called Huntoon House -- thinks B [Bridget Sullivan] the one who had worked for him at Perry House -- showed picture to wife & girl Maggie who slept with B S at Perry House. They thought same one - B.C. daughter did not think so - C saw nothing wrong in house between B & Scanlan.

I underlined "girl Maggie". Cowgill might have been had a domestic actually named Maggie....but if not, might suggest this was a nickname for female domestics in Fall River specifically or New England generally.

By the way, we have attempted to identify the Scanlon mentioned in Jennings Journals as a possible boyfriend of Bridget's. We've had no luck pinning down, definitely, this 'guy'.

Jennings Journals is a compilation of Lizzie's defense attorney, Andrew Jennings, journal notes taken during the case. It can be purchased via the Fall River Historical Society.

Could Scanlan be “girl Maggie”s last name?

All this talk of Maggie conjured up an old memory. Once when I was about 8, a mean boy called my sister Kitty and I names. He didn’t know us, so he called my sister “Freckle Face” and he called me “Toothless Maggie”. (Lol a few of my baby teeth had fallen out and my new teeth were growing in.) I don’t know if this is an old pejorative or what.

There was a comic strip/cartoon called Jiggs and Maggie that ran from 1913 - 2000, even made into a film series (Bringing Up Father) that was loaded with Irish stereotypes.

Another example of Maggie in popular culture is Stephen Crane’s novel, Maggie, A Girl of the Streets, published in 1893.

Was Maggie a catchall name for an Irish girl at the time? Very well could be.

What weight does this have in the analysis of the case? Probably not much, as you mentioned. As we try and understand the dynamics of the household, though, it is an interesting nuance.