"Oh, Mrs. Churchill, please come over! Someone has kil

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:00 am

If we are to go by John Douglas, most notable because of his prediction that the Unibomber would be captured in a three piece suit, would we think that someone who had killed her father within the last ten minutes would be inviting company?
The entire line of course is, "Oh, Mrs. Churchill, please come over! Someone has killed Father."

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:53 pm

Well, John, you certainly have come up with something interesting here - here I am Lizzie having just hacked my Father, not only in just minutes waking up the maid as a witness to me, now calling a neighbor over!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:36 pm

Mrs. Churchill testified that Lizzie responded to her question:

"A. I opened one of the windows and said “Lizzie, what is the matter?”
Q. Go right on, now,
A. She said “O, Mrs. Churchill, do come over; somebody has killed father.”

Why would she not ask her to come over? If she was innocent she would certainly want someone with her.

If she was guilty there was nothing to be gained by keeping her away. How would it have looked later on when the police asked Lizzie why she DIDN'T ask her to come over?

Could she have said, "Nothing, Mrs. Churchill, everything's just fine." I don't think so.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:16 pm

Really!

We have to remember not to judge these people by how we act today. Who was it who said "the past is a different country; they do things differently there?"

Lizzie, innocent or guilty, is standing there inside the screen door, dithering, and she looks over to see Addy. We might translate Lizzie's "DO come over" as "PLEASE come over!" If she's innocent, she's possibly frightened, distracted, even in shock, so she's reaching out for help from a trusted neighbor. If she's guilty, she's aware that Addy may have seen her sending Maggie out. Addy may suspect that something unusual is going on; time for Lizzie to play the bereaved, blameless daughter, and to repeat what she's told Maggie: "SOMEONE has killed Father." Not "Father has been killed!," mind you, but "SOMEONE (i.e., anyone but ME) has killed father!"

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:02 pm

The timing is only important once Lizzie decides to call down Bridget.
I think she may have had more like 15 minutes, rather than 10.
Say, 5 minutes before 11 and 10 minutes after.

I like the way you talk to yourself, john.
I do that too.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:15 pm

My point is the timing. If she had killed her father, she had a big envelope to work with. Bridget sleeping, no one around. She closed the envelope by waking Bridget instead of letting her wake up later and discover Andrew. Brings up two points: maybe Bridget never was sleeping; maybe Lizzie was in shock.
Either Lizzie knew when she was in the barn or outside that her father was dead or she didn't know. If she did know - why wake up Bridget? If she didn't know - then wake up Bridget and call over Mrs. Churchill.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:19 pm

I think Lizzie HAD to wake Bridget up.If Bridget was ever indeed asleep. I think according to her own testimony she was never really asleep, even as she lay on the bed. I think she knew her alibi was going to look suspicious as it was. What alibi could she have come up with for a longer stretch of time without leaving the house? Look at how implausable her alibi for just 20 minutes was. How many holes can you punch in that alibi? Up in the barn eating pears and looking for lead? How long can you eat pears and look for a sheet of lead? What would her alibi have been for a longer span of time? I also think she needed to get people into that house.She needed Bridget to go and get Alice for some reason.So Alice could discover Abby maybe? I am not sure. But I think she wanted people in that house, and not just because she was afraid to be there alone because "there was a maniac on the loose".

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:46 pm

Wow - good comments Allen. I see perception!

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:52 pm

I'd like to know what John Douglas predicted that the BTK would be like. Anybody know?

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:55 pm

Is that really Abbey, or did she clip something out of a cute magazine?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:11 am

***The timing is only important once Lizzie decides to call down Bridget.
I think she may have had more like 15 minutes, rather than 10.
Say, 5 minutes before 11 and 10 minutes after.***

yes ........i think that's the essence of john's original point.....but let's go ahead and give lizzie even 20 mins. the question is: does she have the time to single-handedly do the deed, dispose of evidence, and then immediately BEHAVE EXACTLY AS SHE DOES? i find it ultimately unbelievable -- it becomes believable only through the legendary lizzie as almost superhuman, "a most remarkable woman,"........but i don't believe she was this remarkable, in fact. i'm not saying she is innocent -- just that she never swung the axe herself. and that lizzie herself did not construct or plan out this moment.

about the time for the job...it's hard to factor in the human psycholoogical dimension as it would take up time, the logistics of moving from one place to the next, the time to look here, to look there, etc.....it just doesn't add up for me, and i suppose there is an intuitive factor in my judgment.

here's another way of saying it -- lizzie's behavior here is guilty insofar as having knowledge -- but not guilty insofar as having actually done a murder. her lack of preparation and her grasping at things -- there are clues in those things, i sense.

lizzie's initial reaction to her father -- more like revulsion than concern -- i don't know, but what would this be like in a hostile home? i'm inclined to think that no one cared much about anyone in that family. even lizzie and emma couldn't stand one another in the same house eventually. worse than insane?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:22 pm

Lets just say Lizzie killed her father. Why would she say she had taken off his shoes? It has nothing to do with anything but it puts her right there after Bridget had gone to bed. His shoes are actually on in the death photo. Did he put them back on? To talk to someone perhaps?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:33 pm

i like bob"s introspectiveness. If you're an attorney, bob, i'll buy ya.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:42 pm

Haulover is my new attorney. They say I can't leave South Dakota but I have to go to Minnesota to kill some people - can you fix it?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:19 pm

Exactly haulover! Lizzie acts as if she's in shock and deciding what to do about it. The only conclusion is that she discovered her father dead, had something to do with it, and is thinking up alibies. Hence her various stories. If she was in the barn getting lead - where is the lead? What about testimony of the multiple police officers that interrogated her that morning about the dress? They are trained to observe - where is their testimony as to what she wore? If she was in the yard for an extended time why didn't Mrs. Churchill's "live-in" notice her? Why does it appear that Bridget is lieing? What is her motive? Fear? Did anyone ask Lizzie how the door to the guest room was (open or closed) when she went upstairs? If it was open you'd think she would have wondered, unless she was unconcious, which is a possibility. If the door was closed how did someone close it without leaving blood on it?
The key is the shoes - her flaw.
I explained it a little earlier.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:47 pm

hey, john:

your outpouring brain gets my attention. you raise so much. (I'll have to think about the job offer.)

Well....The Damn Shoes: well, yeah, and we're back to the photographs again. there is another witness in disagreement about the shoes as seen in the photograph. (sorry, no source right here now). .......i dont' know.

at one point in her inquest, lizzie mentions seeing the guest room door shut -- if that's a clue to something, it's possible.

more later, i've got to get out of here.........

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:57 pm

Like I said, I don't have too much interest in this case, but it caught my eye, because of my interest in Lizzie herself. It's a whodunt that will never be figured out. Look at the shoes and the testimony of the shoes if you people want to keep hounding at it and her. Lizzie got away with it. She was clean! Someone else was involved - they was clean too! The more these things are investigated the more people have for sound things to do.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:01 pm

cool haulover!

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:04 pm

I know about the other witness - he said the shoes were laced and the photograph was wrong.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:10 pm

Well in reality - in truth, Harry, if you had just killed somebody would you invite a neighbor over?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:14 pm

Yes, for the reason I gave.

connecticuthills · Post by **connecticuthills** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:32 pm

Didnt Lizzies neighbor testify that she saw Lizzie standing inside the house ( thru the screen door) waiting for Bridget to come back with help?
Now if I just found my Father slaughtered, I wouldnt even of hollerd up to Bridget, I would have ran, blind with fear out of the house for help.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:35 pm

If she was innocent is correct, Harry.
If she was guilty why invite someone over to check her out?
Consequently she was innocent.
If she knew that her step-mother was upstairs dead, and she did it, why ask someone to go find her?
Why not just "let it be" and someone else do it?
Why wake Bridget up?
Why not let Bridget find her father?
I respect you, but i"d like point by points here.
Why would she say that she took his shoes off if she killed him? His shoes didn't matter but that puts her in the murder room at the time of the murder.
Why would Dr. Bowen go to John Morse' neices residence?Why would this junk happen - bad junk if you are the killee?

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:42 pm

Wow - someone is real here - connecticutihills tx

connecticuthills · Post by **connecticuthills** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:01 pm

John
Maybe a man would have grabbed a weapon and searched the house but no way a women would imho