uncle john killed abbey

[john]

uncle john killed abbey because she found out about his affair with andrew and he planned to run away with bridget, but she had to wash windows. uncle john went to his neice's and talked with dr. bowen who told lizzie and she killed andrew because she wanted uncle john for herself and emma. emma, who had been having an affair with nance o'neal, learned of lizzie's interest in nance, and left her sister. nance was seen at uncle john's grave and left all her money and her unbought farm to uncle john's nephew, elmer. elmer wrote what was presumed to be the book by porter, and lizzie bought up all the copies and elmer became rich and went to key west to live with ernest hemingway and shoot birds and shoot poop. elmer lived happily until he died in a car accident with twelve other people where the other eleven walked away.

[snokkums]

So uncle john killed abbey because he was haveing an affiar with Andrew? Or do you mean with Bridget?

[wintressanna]

hmmm....

what if Andrew was getting some on the backside with Uncle John???? Interesting...and might explain the will conversation they had the night before the murders.

[wintressanna]

wow you could write for the young and the senseless

[Wordweaver]

If Uncle John killed Abby, Andrew was a suicide -- he couldn't live without her.

Lynn

[john]

Uncle John asked andrew about the will, but Andrew was asleep, so Uncle John called up to Lizzie, but she yelled, "I can't hear you."
Then Uncle John asked Abby about the will, and Abby told him to wash the windows so he grabbed Andrew's bottle and the snuff Andrew didn't chew anyway, and went off to sleep in the barn.
Thank goodness Alice Russell was there painted up with paint on her dress.

[john]

Andrew woke up - woo - he couldn't remember anything but he must have had a good time because he was sleeping next to a violin. Andrew went off to catch the train and Alice Russell, Mrs. Churchill, Mrs. Bowen, and Mrs. Kelly watched him walk away into the sunrise and each went "woohoo and hola," and smiled tooth smiles with questionable teeth. Andrew went to the post office first and they said they still didn't know who he was and why would he be getting mail here, and that he couldn't pick up other people's mail by law.
So Andrew went to visit his neice who he'd just been visiting for half a day before, and his neice finally threw him out because she said that stud Bowen was coming. Andrew took the train home but didn't notice 200 people in the yard because he needed pears so badly.
And Andrew saw Sawyer and............................

[Pippi]

this board has more "drama" than places made for such things.

[theebmonique]

john, what the hell are you smoking ???


Tracy...

[john]

"Looks like another one, Doctor."
Dr. Bowen, MD, walks over to Sawyer and Uncle John.
"Yes, see the hatchet marks," says the Doctor.
"That's lipstick," says Uncle John.
"Lets get him off to the wagon, Sawyer."
"I'm not dead I tell you," struggles Uncle John with the two men.
Sawyer and Bowen drag Uncle John to the hearse while Uncle John screams, "I'm not dead!"
"I think he's a liar Sawyer, don't listen to him."
Uncle John is put in a casket and Bowen injects him. "That'll quiet him down."
Dr. Bowen looks back at the Borden house and holds Sawyer's hand, and says, "the dead will rise. Have you ever been in a Turkish prision, Sawyer?"
"No Doctor, I had a problem with earwax once but I've never talked with anyone about it."
"Come young man, lets talk - you can trust me...................................."
Muffled sounds are heard from the hearse as it drives away.

[john]

What if someone was trying to kill Abby and Uncle John and mistook Andrew for Uncle John?
What if Abby was the obstacle to the money and Uncle John was a baddie?
What if someone was hired or had an agreement to kill Abby and Uncle John and screwed up?

[john]

What if someone was trying to kill Abby and Uncle John and mistook Andrew for Uncle John?
What if Abby was the obstacle to the money and Uncle John was a baddie?
What if someone was hired or had an agreement to kill Abby and Uncle John and screwed up?

[john]

What if someone was trying to kill Abby and Uncle John and mistook Andrew for Uncle John?
What if Abby was the obstacle to the money and Uncle John was a baddie?
What if someone was hired or had an agreement to kill Abby and Uncle John and screwed up?
What if to some young person, Andrew and Uncle John would look about the same?

[monarchrn]

hey all...I fianlly made in back. I had a lot of log in problems so I ahven't been able to get in....

[monarchrn]

Oh my...my spelling was atrocious in that last post... Sorry
Happy to be back.

[john]

Sorry about the multiples. The only machines I know how to work are slot machines.

[theebmonique]

Welcome back Monarchrn ! You can edit any 'boo-boos' in your posts by clicking on the 'edit button' in the upper right-hand corner of the post. Don't worry...we all make mistakes now and then. Well, all of us except for Audrey.


Tracy...

[Allen]

John I have one question for you? Are you running a high fever right now?

[Audrey]

Abby's death was all a plot so that Andrew could run off with a horrible woman who has dandruff and chain smokes pall malls called Camilla Parker Bowles.....

[Allen]

Abby's death was all a plot so that Andrew could run off with a horrible woman who has dandruff and chain smokes pall malls called Camilla Parker Bowles.....

[monarchrn]

Abby's death was all a plot so that Andrew could run off with a horrible woman who has dandruff and chain smokes pall malls called Camilla Parker Bowles.....

Ok Audrey, that WAS funny....lol...:)

[theebmonique]

Audrey will be taking her Enchantress of the Damned comedy extravaganza on the road this summer. Discount rate given to almost all forum members.


Tracy...

[Kat]

That's odd. Camilla's husband Was Andrew.

[Wordweaver]

What if someone was trying to kill Abby and Uncle John and mistook Andrew for Uncle John?
What if Abby was the obstacle to the money and Uncle John was a baddie?
What if someone was hired or had an agreement to kill Abby and Uncle John and screwed up?
What if to some young person, Andrew and Uncle John would look about the same?

That's an interesting theory. So does this mean Andrew hired a killer to get rid of Abby and was hoist by his own petard? Or did one of the girls do it?

The only image I can find of Uncle John is this (undated) one from ttp://www.curiouschapbooks.com/Catalog_of_Cur ... llery.html

Like Andrew, he does have a beard but no mustache. I don't know how the two compared in height and general complexion.

But the newspaper description of Uncle John at the trial says: "He wore an iron-gray suit and had a beard of the same color. His eyes are dark and restless and deeply set under a straight projecting forehead. When looking straight into the face Mr. Morse has a shrewd but weird expression." (from the New Bedford Evening Standard, as quoted by Harry)

(I love the "shrewd but weird" expression. But then I imagine anybody would look a little weird under similar circumstances.)

Given old Andrew's demonstrated grasp of practical matters, I imagine he would have made sure his hired killer knew Morse's hair was *dark* gray, as opposed to his own white locks. (Assuming he used a go-between for the actual deal; otherwise the killer would definitely know who hired him.) And that trait would seem difficult to miss, even in a relatively dark room.

Lizzie seems to have been careful about details. So was Emma the mastermind? But why would she want to kill her uncle as well as Abby? Did she think Andrew was going to leave all his cash to his first wife's brother? Or would Uncle John have been a tight-fisted and possibly dishonest trustee?

Lynn

[theebmonique]

The LAB website has several things relating to Uncle John, but there does seem to be just the one photo of him.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LizzieABorden.htm


Tracy...

[snokkums]

It's a possiably that someone was trying to kill Uncle John, and maybe was nervous or in a hurry and mistook Andrew for John. Or the monkey wrapped his tail around the flag ploe. I want what you all are smoking. Must be some pretty good stuff.

[Harry]

The LAB website has several things relating to Uncle John, but there does seem to be just the one photo of him.Tracy...

I do believe that is the only known photo of him and is from the FR Historical Society.

There are a few newspaper drawings of him. Here's one from an 8-6-1892 paper:

[theebmonique]

I have my doubts that there was a 'possibility' that Uncle John was the intended victim.

Or the monkey wrapped his tail around the flag ploe.

WHAT ???

I want what you all are smoking. Must be some pretty good stuff.

I think john is the only one smoking anything. But, I could be mistaken.


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

Thanks Harry !


Tracy...

[snokkums]

like the sketch. It's neat. Harry comes up with some of the neatest stuff.

[Harry]

Going back into my Lizzie Borden Quarterly archives I found this on that one-and-only photo of Uncle John. From the January 1998 issue, page 3, beneath the photo:

"We are pleased to present this premiere printing event. Finally, we are able to see what John V. Morse really looked like without depending on an artist's sketch of him during the Borden trial. It has been authenticated by the Fall River Historical Society and is part of their archives. Previously this photograph had only been seen on the ... A&E Channel Biography Series, "Lizzie Borden - A Woman Accused."
The photograph was anonymously donated to the fall River Historical Society and is not available for sale to the public. In order for us to present this photograph to our readers, it was necessary for the FRHS to query the donor for special permission."

That same article, by the editor, Mr. Maynard F. Bertolet, has Morse's obituary as well as other information on him.

[john]

Good job Harry!
What do you about late nineteenth century locks? I've had training as a locksmith, but of course not on locks that old. Two thoughts: I think that it would be improbable that you could pick a lock with one nail unless the nail was big enough and the lock was fragile enough to simply break it. A cylinder lock with say three pins (or more but I'm guessing low security cheap her par Andrew) could be easily picked with two nails if the keyhole was large enough. Second thought is that a locksmith has extreme value of his tools. I've used paper clips and small screwdrivers to pick locks and saved the paperclips as something of value. So anyone who could pick the lock at the burglary prior to the murders may well have kept the nail (nails.) One nail was found and looks like a prop to me by someone who doesn't know much about locks.
I guess the big question is how many tumblers in cheap 1800's household locks?

[Audrey]

I would be careful about assuming those locks were cheap... Someone hell bent on locking doors might not pinch pennies on something like that.

[john]

Uncle John rolls into the hospital on a gurney and Dr. Emdee looks at him and says, "why it's John Morse, he was at my wedding 35 years ago. Must be dead and somebody dressed him up - same suit he wore at the weddin."
"I'm not dead," mumbles Uncle John.
"Is there an echoe in here." Dr Emdee wheels the stretcher to a wall. "Call the mort nurse. I'm gonna take another nap."
The hospital halls are quiet and Uncle John lays druggedly watching things on the celing; tiles with holes in them and brown cracks and lights that constantly burn and spidery corners. He starts to realize that he must be really dead and thinks, "I sure had some good times, but I can't remember them." Uncle John listens to hospital sounds of clinking and small tubber tires and screaming and quiet and slow shuffling stepping and people buying get well cards and it smells like a hospital until an aid sprays Lysol all over him and he thinks I hope that kills fleas.
Suddenly dr. Bowen bursts into the hospital with Dr. Handy, and....................

[john]

Dr. Bowen spies Dr. Emdee.
"Doctor," Bowen chants.
"Doctor," Dr. Emdee replies.
"Doctor," Dr. Handy nods at Dr. Emdee.
"Doctor," Dr. Emdee turns as Dr. Handy addresses him and listens for Uncle John.
"Doctor," Dr. Bowen recognizes Dr. Handee.
"Doctor," Dr Bowen frowns at Dr. Emcee. "Is it bad, Dr. Bowen says?"
"No, he's dead."
"Doctor," Dr. Handee haloos Dr Bowen.
Bridget walks into the hospital looking for a place to stay. "Ah, the servant," Dr. Bowen says. "Would you move this gurney outside, then I'm resident in 237, would you bring me some coffee please."
"Certainly Doctor," Bridget smiles.
A Doctor walks by in the hall.
"Doctor."
"Doctor."
"Doctor"
"Doctor."
"Doctor."
"Doctor."
"Doctor."
"Doctor."
"Excuse me Doctor, I have to go check on an interesting amputee. Join me Doctors?"
Dr. Handy and Dr. Bowen join Dr. Emdee.
Dr. Bowen calls back, "oh, and Maggie, please have the coffee by 8:00."
"Yes Doctor."
Suddenly Uncle John jumps off the stretcher and.............................

[john]

Uncle John looks weirdly at the doctors.
"Darn if I don't die, they're probably gonna arrest me and I'll have to come up with money for ma' bail." Uncle John holds out his hand to the doctors, "Doctor, Doctor, bail donations? Doctor?"
The doctors give him stuff from their pockets, paper clips and old Valentines candy and small coins and lint. "Hey doctor, I saw this great team of oxen you could use around the farm."
"Call me," says Dr. Bowen, and the doctors scurry off to where there are nurses.
Uncle John wanders the halls and watches people more worsely off than he. A woman with a purple birthmark onto her face. A man with no legs riding a little board ramp. A woman in bandages who cries "Stella," and the aids return her to her room.
Uncle John thinks, and he thinks, "darn I thought I was dead and this would all be over."
Suddenly Lizzie runs into the hospital with the will and Uncle John thinks,"egads, they'll probably still be talking about this a hundred years from now. Na!"
Lizzie grabs Uncle John and, "Is Dr. Bowen here?"
Uncle John mumbles, "I'm not dead," and Lizzie shakes him and runs off into the sickly halls and into the paste lunches and into lovers seperated by something badly, and into her first day of life, and then............................

[john]

Lizzie bursts into surgery where Dr. Bowen is performing in a mask and a hairnet. "Doctor, I have it."
"Hmm?" Dr. Bowen looks up.
"I have the will and we can destroy it and run away like you said."
"Ah," Dr Bowen leads her away from the listening nurses.
Lizzie hands Dr. Bowen the will and starts to cry.
"Listen honey, I'm doing a job here and I can't remember if it's an appendectimy or a green toe. Hopes the nurses will know. Remember Lizzie, the road goes on forever but the highway never ends."
Bowen returns to his patient, and Lizzie wakls to the street. The morning sun is red and yellow on the bottom of the clouds and three crows fly high and cackle to her, and the stones of the walk are little quiet bumps under her feet, and she looks at a man in a red coat getting onto a bus.
"I wish I were getting on the bus," she whispers to herself.
The morning goes on and on, and she walks and finds morning hot dogs and an antique store and she buys an old mirror but she drops it, and leaves it and sits in the sun, then she sees the black police car at the end of the lane, and she remembers, that, 'the road goes on forever, but the highway never ends,' and........................

[Allen]

Just something of interest I found in the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.
It's from an article that appeared in the New York Herald on August 8,1892.

What Mr. Morse Says

He has not been willing to say much for publication heretofore, but to-day
he consented to tell the HERALD his full story. He said:-
" I returned to Fall River from New Bedford on Wednesday afternoon; and after a drive to Swansea and back came to Mr. Borden's house to spend the night. The next morning I had breakfast about seven o'clock and at a quarter to nine I left. Mrs. Borden was upstairs. I hadn't seen her since eight o'clock. Mr. Borden left me at the door, asking me to come home to dinner. I went to the Post Office and several other places about town and finally to Daniel Emery's. at No. 4 Weybosett street. I stayed there until between quarter after or half-past eleven, when I started for home by street car. It was twenty minutes to twelve when I got home and heard of the murders. The house was full of policemen and people. That is all I know about it."

"Mr. Morse", I said, "It has been asserted that when Lizzie was away the week before the murder she went to New Bedford to see you."
"That is not true," said Morse vehemently, "She did not see me.I didn't get any letters from her either, though I heard she was at Marion."

Mr. Morse admitted that there had been ill feelings between Mrs. Borden and her step daughters, but he would not discuss that matter further.
Lizzie, he said, was a peculiar girl, often given to fits of sullenness. His statement about his whereabouts during the morning of the murder has been fully corroborated, and persons who were on the street car with him when he went home testified to that fact. Perhaps it was only Mr. Morse's furtive and unhappy manner when he talks that directed any suspicion toward him.

Open War On Mrs. Borden

The Borden household must have been a rather grim sort of place. Mr. Borden himself, though perfectly respectable and upright, was not particularly cheerful, and between his wife and her step daughters there was open war. The elder daugther, Emma, is described as of a mild and gentle disposition, but there is little mildness about Lizzie, seven years her junior.

Mr. Borden was worth half a million dollars, and, though penurious as a rule was inclined to be generous to his household, but Lizzie resented his liberality toward the stepmother. Her own mother died in giving birth to her and she has been odd all her life. She grew up to be much of a recluse. She is far from homely, though not particulary handsome, but she never had a lover, she has avoided the company of young men and has never gone into society. She has her defenders, who say she has an amiable disposition. the allegations to the contrary may be ill natured gossip.

It goes on to describe Lizzie physically and emotionally.


Has anyone else heard of this rumor that Lizzie went to see Morse in New Bedford the week before the murders? I had seen the question about the letters before, but this is the first I heard about any rumor about a visit.

[Kat]

"I went to the Post Office and several other places about town and finally to Daniel Emery's. at No. 4 Weybosett street."
--Morse only ever said he went to the post office and then to the Emery's. There was noting about "several other places."
________

"Mrs. Borden was upstairs. I hadn't seen her since eight o'clock."
--Morse left about 8:45 a.m. and says he last saw Mrs. Borden about 10 minutes before that- say 8:30 a.m.
______

"I didn't get any letters from her either..."
--Morse said he never had a letter from Lizzie.
Prelim: "Q. You kept up a correspondence with Emma during your stay in the West? A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you with Lizzie? A. I do not think I ever had a letter from Lizzie in my life."
(This is under oath)
_________

"Mr. Morse admitted that there had been ill feelings between Mrs. Borden and her step daughters, but he would not discuss that matter further.
--I don't think Morse ever said this and it will not show up in any testimony.
________

"Emma....Lizzie, seven years her junior."
--Lizzie was nearly half the time 8 years younger and nearly half the time 9 years younger than Emma, being as they were 4 months apart, 1851 and 1860, respectively.
_______

"Mr. Borden was worth half a million dollars..."
--Andrew was probably worth around $350,000 to $400,000
(R.280)
_______

"Her own mother died in giving birth to her..."
Lizzie was born July 19, 1860 and her mother Sarah died March 26, 1863. (R. 6-7).
_____

--What I'm getting at is obviouly that when there are so many discrepancies in fact, there are liable to be more misinformation, than information in this news segment.

[Allen]

I can agree that some of the information given was inaccurate, but I cannot believe that the statement attributed to Morse was entirely made up out of thin air. A newspaper could be sued for attributing a statement to a person that was never made.

[Allen]

Oh and, is it possible that Lizzie did see Morse while she was in New Bedford?

[john]

Lizzie admitted staying in a room somewhere for more than a day. I'm not sure where I read that, but could probably find it. Sounded suspicious to me and seems it was near (within five miles or so) to Morse' house.
Also there is evidence that she visited an attorney prior (within six months) to the murders. Again I'm at a loss for books, but they can be available although slowly.

[john]

Lizzie skulks, and listens to herself and walks and picks flowers from peoples yards and eats one of them, and thinks, "I wish I could become a flower. "There would be no problems if I was a flower."
She sits at the bay and watches stones notmoving and fish notjumping and little kids and parents that aren't there.
She listens for a thing and for a God, but there is no God anymore for she has crossed God. Lizzie realizes it's all down now, and accepts the fate and walks into the sand, so scruffy in her shoes, and she doesn't notice the spring birds callings, and the air that is so clean.

[Allen]

John have you ever thought of creating a thread just for these little stories of yours?

[Kat]

This is his thread where he tells his stories.
And gives away vacations to Hawaii..

[Allen]

But I think maybe he should make one where he just writes a new part to the story every day or something like that, no other posts, just his story

[Audrey]

I wAnder if he makes posts only he can see???

[john]

Lizzie thinks about a painter she had heard of from France or Holland who died so youngly, and his paintings were in love with movement and the colors were better than real colorings, and even the bricks of buildings were alive for that is the way that this painter saw life. She wanted to be inside of this man's paintings. She wanted to see life as more than life and she walked and stumbled now to a general store where she stood in the doorway and examined her options. She had a little money. Could survive a bit, but the man had said she would be suspected. She had to move across for a man buying much barn paint and she thought of pidgeons, and her thoughts were no longer collected.
A girl came up to the store in bare feet, and she said to herself "at least I can still go barefoot," and the sharp stones hurt at first, but the sand was warm and into and between her toes, and that made her happily go on to she didn't know where, but she knows now that the highway never ends. It is the thing that is more than the life. It can be walked or crawled or dragged or imagined, but it is a thing that is. A journey into the unknown that means acceptance sometimes and rejection and ignoring and pavement and dark dusty things and sunlight and tomorrow and sometimes yesterday.
And so she takes the first step of her life that is towardsly the highway that is to Boston and away from Boston and she doesn't cry anymore for she is a woman and she is new and she is fine in her thoughts now and she must go on.

[theebmonique]

WHO-ly IS-ly HE-ly ???-ly


Tracy...

[john]

Lizzie knows now that the road is the way and the mission is the life and she wants to explain that to herself and she will laterly.