I'm new here!:) I have been reading many posts and things stike me as strange......maybe someone could awnser Why would Lizzie Burn her paint splattered dress in the first place why not give it to "maggie" as a hand me down of some sort? Im sure Bridget could have used it for something even as a dress to do her chores in or cut it up and make a new one.obviously Lizzie knew her well enough to know she would be intrested in a sale for material that day. Or Even to use the material for rags?
Also I have been reading the archives so I have alot of information about her whole menstral thing at the time.......but what is not clear to me.......is how many of these pails did she use? There was one already down in the basement......the one in the kitchen or was that the same one just moved and then later on she came down to the basement several times to deal with buckets? Pails.........And did they use different pails for each different kind of body function?
I also wanted to say that if Bridget had been living in the house now for 2 yeas at least and they still called her "maggie" I don't thing there was an affair going on between her and Lizzie.......If there was a personal relationship Im sure she would have been nice enough to at least respectfully call her by her rightful name.
Hi Nona, welcome to the Forum! Lets see if I can answer your questions any.
The general idea with the paint stained dress being burned was that perhaps Lizzie wore it when she killed Abby and it was then stained with blood also. Hence the need to get rid of it. In the Trial they tried to get across the point that both Lizzie and her sister, Emma, didn't keep a rag bag for scraps from old dresses. And that Lizzie had burned an old dress when her Bedford cord dress (the paint stained dress) was newly made. The idea being that it was an innocent act, Lizzie didn't give away her old dresses nor save them in any way. Though there was evidence from the dressmaker, Mary Raymond, that Lizzie had cut out a few pieces from this old dress before she got rid of it.
About the pails, from what I read, used menstrual cloths were stored in a tub with water under the sink in the washroom until the next washday. The pail Lizzie brought down was a slop pail that she set down in the kitchen (yuck), only one pail. Urine from the chamber pot, used menstrual cloths and used wash water all went into the slop pail to be emptied out later. From what I can recall, chamber pots were used mostly for urination at night, though the elder Bordens used theirs to vomit in the night they were sick.
Hmmm, the "Maggie" thing is anyone's guess. Only Lizzie and Emma seemed to call Bridget that.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
Thank you both for your thoughts .This helps put things more into perspective....
Intresting Lizzie cut a few peices out of the dress..a momento maybe? I could see it being an insult from an irish woman stand point I suppose, to recieve someone's hand me downs. Im sure the Irish would be a proud people or maybe just servants in general? Hardworking but not poor?
Although just a though, Lizzie came to bring her pail into the kitchen in the AM before breakfast to empty.Im assuming that's what one always does first thing as a chore...but then why and was Lizzie empting in the basement with Mrs. Russell accomaning her.if one pail she clamed with the rags were already been in the basement for four days. Did she go to all the rooms emptying everyones out? If so why would she do that? I think I read she went once with Mrs. Russell and once by herself?
How many pails were there?
I ask because It would make sense to me that if indeed she needed to clean up the blood on her self she would need more than just a few towels and a little water.maybe threre were multiple pails, multiple towels for each pail?
Welcome, Nona! The slop pail Lizzie emptied with Alice Russell would be from the afternoon and evening of that day, which she spent in her room while police did their investigation. Rather than elbow her way through the crowd and to the WC in the cellar, she (and maybe Alice and Emma) must have used the chamber pot in her room. There would have been the one pail full of water for napkins in the cellar. Presumably she would have had none to add, having ended her period day before. The slop pail would have been tightly lidded to keep odor to a minimum. (Still gross, but not as gross as if it were unlidded.)
Lizzie did make a second solo trip to the cellar, witnessed by an officer, who said she bent over by the sink. We have wondered here before whether some additional napkins were added at that time. But there is a problem with where she could have concealed them during the search.
I think there were people with Lizzie until Emma came around 6 p.m., Alice in particular. Then I think Alice went home to get a few things and returned.
Mrs. Dr. Bowen had been in the house, Mrs. Churchill also, but neither of them were in the room with Lizzie, I don't think.
Rev. Buck was in the room and Dr. Bowen, at times.
After Emma came I think Alice and she took turns staying with Lizzie in her room, as well as Mrs. Holmes.
Trial
Mrs. Holmes
1499
Q. Now when was it that you first heard of the murder, or heard of some trouble at the Borden house?
A. I think at about quarter to twelve.
Q. What did you do in consequence of what you heard?
A. I went in to a neighbors and talked about it.
Q. Did you go to the Borden house?
A. I did after dinner, about 1 o'clock.
Q. When you arrived there who did you find?
A. I went first into Dr. Bowen's and he went across with me. We went into a side door and some one told me that I could not see Miss Lizzie.
Q. Never mind what you were told: What did you do?
A. I sat down in the kitchen.
Q. And then after that?
A. Some one came and told me that Miss Lizzie would like to see me.
Q. You went up in her room?
A. I went with Miss Russell through the dining room, through the sitting room, at the head of the sofa, and through the front hall up stairs to Miss Lizzie's room.
Q. Who were with her?
A. I cannot tell you, some men talking with her.
Q. Do you know whether they were officers?
A. Yes, sir, I think they were.
.........
Pg 1500
We kept the door locked. The house was full of men, and if we did not have that door locked, as they came up stairs, they were apt to open it.
--------
1503
Q. What time did you go away that night?
A. About half past eight.
Q. Was there any use of the toilet things that afternoon, Mrs. Holmes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Any reason why the slop-pail should be filled?
A. I should think so, if I was to stay there all night.
Q. No, I mean in the afternoon, by reason of use in the afternoon?
A. Yes, that is what I say.
Q. For washing and various other purposes. What do you mean by "if you stayed all night you should"?
A. Why, I should think---
MR. KNOWLTON. It is perfectly obvious what she means. You need not ask the details on our account.
_____
Inquest
Alice
149
Q. When did you finally go home, and leave the house, somewhere near supper time?
A. No, I dont think so. I went home near six-- I dont know, it seems to me it was day light, because I remember somebody stepping up to me and walking over home with me.
Q. You dont mean the next morning?
A. No. I remember one of my old friends walking down with me, and my excusing myself and going up stairs; it must have been before dark.
Q. Had Emma got there before you went home?
A. O, yes.
Q. Who did you leave Miss Lizzie with?
A. Who do you mean in the house?
Q. She remained in her room, as I understand you?
A. Yes Sir. I dont know who I left her with, but I think Mrs. Holmes and Emma.
Q. Mrs. Charles J. Holmes?
A. Yes Sir, they were there. We intended, some of us, not to leave Lizzie; we knew the state she was in. When one was out, the other made a point to be there; which was which, I dont know.
______
Emma and Alice seemed not to ask Bridget anything. Emma says she asked Bridget if she would stay but that's about it, according to Emma.
If Emma came around 6 and spoke to Bridget, then we know that Bridget was still there at least by that time.
"Does anyone know who has been to the house if there was anything peculiar looking where she could have bent down?"
There is nothing there now in the cellar. There was a wash sink and a fawcet, and a cupboard below.
The dead people's bloody clothes and other evidence was piled within 5 feet or so of where Lizzie stooped down. Lizzie was not witnessed carrying anything the second time she went to the dark cellar- just a light.
The pail with bloody cloths was the nearest thing to her, being right under the window- so that Hyde could not really see it. It was to Lizzie's right as she stooped down, maybe a couple of feet from her.
I'm not sure that the sink was under that window tho, on the south wall, facing north?
I pictured it on the east wall, but near the corner, facing west.
Do you know for sure?
I read everything I could on the cellar, for days and days to write my "Cellar" article for The Hatchet.
But now I'm not sure...
You're welcome, Kat. I was doing it for myself as well to try and make sense of what Hyde said about Lizzie's trip to the cellar. He said that the sink was in the southeast corner and that he was at the southeast window looking in and couldn't see the sink due to the angle he was at. That made me figure it must have been more on the south wall, beneath the cellar window out of view unless he pressed his face up against the glass. My thought is that if the cabinet door under the sink faced west, towards Second Street, and Lizzie had opened it, he would have seen it and possibly what she did as she stooped. If the cabinet door faced north and Lizzie was facing Hyde directly as she stooped, he wouldn't have a view of her when she was down behind the sink then. Does that make any sense or have I gotten it completely bassackwards? Do I have the wrong window too?
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
I think you have to have it right, Susan, because there were no windows in back were there? I think the opposite side of the house would be blocked by the double steps, wouldn't they? The sketch makes it much easier to imagine just what might have been seen (and what might not!).
Well, Hyde started at the window on the back, on the south side of the cellar steps. Then he moved around to the first window on the southeast. It was night and the light was set down against the west wall, so the light was quite a few feet from the sink. Because he couldn't see what she did at the sink, could be due to the light.
I will read the testmony again. It's all Hyde I think. I have it printed out.
I found the sink! It's in The Knowlton Papers. Kieran's plan of the cellar. I was pretty sure I knew where the sink was. It is on the east wall as I thought. (I really did study this for days and days)
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Susan, I'm sorry you don't take The Hatchet. I have a complete diagram of where everything was in the cellar which was listed in the testimony. I took this plan and reversed the black and white and then drew everything in. I checked that first, but I could not tell if I had drawn the sink there or if it was on the plan- so I went back to the source. (I know you don't have The Knowlton Papers either).
Now Lyddie, did you read my cellar article?
Thanks, Kat, its great to have illustrations like that, makes things a bit more clear! So, now which window was it? The one I thought or the one thats right over the sink? Hyde said the southeast window, but, they are both kind of southeast. Yes, I wish I had your article in front of me, would be so helpful!
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
I had to ask the opinion of someone else to help define which windows Hyde used.
It's very hard to figure from his speech.
He started at the window by the back cellar steps, southeast. Then he went right around the corner to the south/Kelly side- that first window to the cellar there.
So I at least had the correct window if not the placement of the sink then? Thats why I tried to figure it out in that illustration, hard to determine exactly what Hyde meant with his switching of windows and such.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
Wow thinking nona. Not to detract, but "Maggie" was just a generic term for Irish servants in spite of what is printed. It would be ineresting to see what Lizzie called Bridget ongoing in testimony. You have an idea there that could be developed nona!
NO John , that's not really me....!!! I tried to put a pic of the real me but it wouldn't take it it said it was just too big! So I chose this avatar because it reminds me Of the poem The Lady of Shallot from T.S Elliot. Although, Im sure it was probably ment to be OPhelia .she has that Ophelia look to me I guess.
But Nona is my real name at least.......well actually it is Winona ---Nona for short.
Nona @ Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:48 am wrote: I chose this avatar because it reminds me Of the poem The Lady of Shallot from T.S Elliot. Although, Im sure it was probably ment to be OPhelia .she has that Ophelia look to me I guess.
That avatar is from the John William Waterhouse painting Lady of Shalott.
I didn't realize Eliot had done a poem on her. I'll have to look it up in his Collected Poems.
Lynn
There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. --Edward Abbey
OH MY goodness it's so funny that I thought of that poem and that was a pic ment to portray that very poem!!! crazy......yes it's a beautiful poem....its very deep you probably have to ready it for awhile.to get it......unless you know alot about poetry already:)
Nona, are you sure you don't mean Tennyson? His Lady is the one who is "half sick of shadows," and, yes, it is a fine poem, but not quite Eliot's kind of subject.
Kat, of course I have read (and enjoyed ) the cellar story you wrote. I just wasn't sure where the guard was posted. For some reason I had always imagined him posted down cellar with the clothing and looking away when Alice and Lizzie came down to use the WC.
You are right, Lyddie- that they should have put a guard in the cellar! What a good idea!
The hatchets were there, the bloody evidence, the menstrual pail- everything! Maybe the paint-stained dress..?
Lizzie might have thought that people might have thought that there was blood instead of paint on the dress. She was probably very paranoid and scared that people might have thought she did it, or maybe bridget did it, so she wasnt thinking rationly when she burned the dress.
Or it might have just been that the dress was ruined because of paint, and thats how they took care of ruined clothes.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
So I at least had the correct window if not the placement of the sink then? Thats why I tried to figure it out in that illustration, hard to determine exactly what Hyde meant with his switching of windows and such.
