Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Thumbing through my Rebello tonight I came across this...


Rebello pp 68-69

Mrs. Borden’s Visit to Dr. Bowen

“On Wednesday morning last, about 9 o’clock, Mrs. Borden came across the shed [street] and entering our house commenced conversation with my wife. She said. ‘I am afraid my husband and I were poisoned last night. We ate supper as usual, and had nothing out of the ordinary on the table. About 9 o’clock we were both taken sick with terrible fits of vomiting and pains in the stomach. We finally got easier and so did not send for the doctor in the night. …A little later in the forenoon, I went over to see Mr. Borden. I found him reclining on the sofa in the sitting room. (Bold type mine). I asked him how he was, and if he thought anything poisoned him. He laughed and he said he guessed there was not very much the matter with him. …That is the whole basis for the talk of poison … and personally, I do not take stock in the theory … I see nothing thus far, sufficiently strong to indicate it.” Dr. Bowen



Could Andrew have made it a habit to "recline" (Not lie) on the sofa when he felt unwell?

If so-- His odd position may not have been odd for him at all.

I see your point Audrey. This is very interesting, because it shows Mr. Borden far more congenial than he is usually described.
Plus the pattern laying on the sofa.
Good job!

FREE TRIPS TO HAWAII FOR THREE AND A FREE HUMMER at "Uncle John Killed Abby" site.

When Morse arrived at 1:30 p.m. Wednesday, Andrew was lying on the sofa, but sat up to talk.

Preliminary Hearing
Morse
237
Q. How did you find Mr. Borden’s health that day?
A. He was sick, indisposed, laying on the lounge.

Q. That is when you got there?
A. That is when I got there.

Q. You left him so when you went away?
A. Well, he was sitting up before I went away, sitting there talking.

Q. How did he appear to be?
A. He appeared to be tolerably comfortable at that time.

------

Notice in Audrey's transcription from Rebello, how easy Dr. Bowen makes his visit sound, compared to what Lizzie told Alice as to her interpretation of the visit! Either Bowen didn't mind how he was treated by Andrew, or he left that part out in his description of his visit, or Lizzie is embellishing (from upstairs, yet!)

Partial from Alice Letter:
"Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said 'her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over.

I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison.

Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said 'the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure.'

After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said 'well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style.' Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I
think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad.'"
viewtopic.php?p=11130&highlight=#11130
Subject: KEYS

That is right Kat.... Bowen shows us a congenial Andrew, laughing with Dr Bowen. He very well may have refused treatment but he did so in a friendly way.

So Andrew was lying on the sofa on the early morning of Wednesday, and after dinner Wednesday at 1:30 when Morse arrived, and apparently also lying on the sofa on Thursday forenoon before he was killed. We have 3 instances of Andrew lying on the sofa.

Maybe he liked to "recline" there, much like many men enjoy their Lazy-Boy recliners. Maybe that was a natural place for him to rest and relax.

Smudgeman @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:48 pm wrote:Maybe he liked to "recline" there, much like many men enjoy their Lazy-Boy recliners. Maybe that was a natural place for him to rest and relax.

Exactly my point.... Some have speculated that his position at death was odd or abnormal. Perhaps I am making too much of the word "reclining" on the sofa versus laying-- But I wonder if, for Andrew-- that was a normal way for him to relax.

Maybe the word recline and lay can be used interchangeably, maybe not. If Andrew was fully on the sofa would they have said "lying" on the sofa? Was reclining meant to indicate was was leaned over-- but his feet could have been on the floor?

I agree with Audrey. He may have lay (tense? - is this past or present participle?) down that way to not mess up his clothes. His body, however, as I read somewhere was altered according to someone's statement or testimony. Kat?
It's not particularly important unless there was a conspiracy (more than one person involved) and something is tryingly to be hidden.

I was an English Major, but I still got a lot of poop from the English Colnels.

Audrey @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:46 pm wrote:
Exactly my point.... Some have speculated that his position at death was odd or abnormal. Perhaps I am making too much of the word "reclining" on the sofa versus laying-- But I wonder if, for Andrew-- that was a normal way for him to relax.

Maybe the word recline and lay can be used interchangeably, maybe not.

VERB: 1. To be or place oneself in a prostrate or recumbent position: lie1 (down), repose, stretch (out). See HORIZONTAL. 2. To take repose, as by sleeping or lying quietly: lie1 (down), repose, rest1, stretch (out). See CONTINUE.

http://www.bartleby.com/62/14/R1241400.html
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4 entries for the term reclining, all as synonyms for other words.The first word being flat.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=reclining

I don't know how much that will help, but I thought looking up synonyms would help us figure out how the word reclining might be used.

Oh Good Lord.... NO VERBS!

English verbs were very nearly the death of me...

A little later in the forenoon, I went over to see Mr. Borden. I found him reclining on the sofa in the sitting room. (Bold type mine). I asked him how he was, and if he thought anything poisoned him. He laughed and he said he guessed there was not very much the matter with him. …That is the whole basis for the talk of poison … and personally, I do not take stock in the theory … I see nothing thus far, sufficiently strong to indicate it.” Dr. Bowen



Is Dr. Bowen trying to say he just walked in and found him there reclined? Bridget says nothing of her awnsering the door, not that I know of.does anyone know how he got in? knocked? let himself in? Someone let him in? I ask because I find it strange he just found him that way. This just might go along with the habits they kept of the locked doors.......that's all.

And does anyone know how tall Andrew was V's how long the couch was.maybe it would have been more uncomfortable to lay on the couch then to half lay then feet on ground or maybe it was just out of plain good manners to not put your shoes on the couch? But If that were so.why did't he just take his shoes off then put his feet on the couch?


Audree good catch on noticing that:)

Audrey @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:46 pm wrote:
Maybe the word recline and lay can be used interchangeably, maybe not. If Andrew was fully on the sofa would they have said "lying" on the sofa? Was reclining meant to indicate was was leaned over-- but his feet could have been on the floor?

Maybe this testimony will clear up some questions dealing with the use of the word "reclining" vs. "lying".

Dr. Bowen's trial testimony page 301-302:

Q. Will you describe what you saw as you came into the sitting-room?
A. I saw Mr. Borden lying on the sofa or lounge at the left of the sitting-room door.

Q. Will you give further description, doctor, as far as you can, as to the injuries that appeared upon inspection.
A. Upon inspection I found that his face was very badly cut with apparently a sharp instrument, and there was blood all over his face; his face was covered with blood.I felt of his pulse, and satisfied myself at once that he was dead, and I took a glance about the room and saw that there was nothing disturbed at all.

Q. Any of the furniture or anything else disturbed about the room at all?
A. Not that I noticed.

Q.Will you describe the position on the sofa?
A. He was lying with his face towards the south on his right side apparently at ease, as any one would be if they were lying asleep.

Q. Was the face to be recognized by one who knew him?
A. Hardly, I should say.

Q.( Exhibiting a photograph.) You have seen this photograph, doctor, have you?
A. Yes, sir, or one like it.

Q. Will you be kind enough to tell us in what respect Mr. Borden's position differed from that photograph, if it differed at all?
A. I don't think the photograph shows the ease that is natural to a person that is asleep or lying down. I think in this case the form has sunk a little from what it was when I first saw it.

Whether the pillow amd afghan were usually on the couch might help determine if someone was used to lying there:

Trial
Morse
Q. Did you see this pillow that was under Mr. Borden’s head?
A. I did not.

Q. I did not mean whether you examined it afterwards or not. Had you seen that pillow before, after, or at any time; do you know what kind of a pillow it was?
A. I know there had always been one there; I could not describe it at all.

Q. You could not tell whether it was a feather pillow or what it was?

Page 258

A. No, it was not a feather pillow. Do you mean filled with feathers? I dont know.

Q. Do you know anything about this afghan?
A. No.

Q. Did you see any afghan, or sofa covering there?
A. I do not know.

Q. Do you know whether one was used on the lounge or with the lounge?
A. I have seen such a thing; I dont know whether I saw it this time; I do not think I did.
_______

Measurements can be found in Kieran's testimony at the beginning of the trial. Andrew's height can be found at his autopsy, at the website.

Couch = 7' 1" long including the arms.
The seating area was 4' 11".

Andrew was 5' 11".

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm

Thank you for the testimony, Allen.

john @ Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:47 am wrote:FREE TRIPS TO HAWAII FOR THREE AND A FREE HUMMER at "Uncle John Killed Abby" site.

Link? I tried UncleJohnKilledAbby.com, but no dice.

Lynn

This is far fetched but I kinda wondered if he was killed somewhere else and then deposited back on the sofa. His position looks to me like someone who was deposited after death, but then, where are th tracks of blood?

and in the testimony there is the mention that the body may have sunk a little, which is understandable as apart of the death processes...so I guess that helps explain the posture...thanks