Hey, hay.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:47 pm

It was mentioned somewhere that, even though the floor of the barn looked undisturbed, there was an indentation in the hay as if someone had been lying in it. Could it be possible that Lizzie was caught with someone (Bridget, Alice, Uncle John, or ?) and all hell broke loose? There would have been much humiliation, anger, shame on her part, and threats from parents about sending her away, disinheriting her, etc. She or her partner or both could then have committed the murders to stifle the whole thing. Maybe Emma knew what was going on, but didn't have a hand in it. When she got older and was living by herself, didn't she keep a weapon near her because she said she was afraid "they may come?"

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:55 pm

I think an identation in the hay "as if someone had been lying there" probably looks different than an indentation in the hay "as if someone got caught in the act with another person." In the second case I imagine there would be considerably more disturbance than "an indentation."

Just my opinion.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:04 pm

Well, we don't know how disturbed it was. And don't forget, we are talking Lizzie Borden, not Courtney Love.

john · Post by **john** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:56 pm

Good thinking Angel!

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:56 pm

But you suggest Lizzie and someone else got caught in the act by a third person and this led to the murders. I think the hay would be pretty mussed up if that were the case.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:17 pm

I think if ANYONE were 'rolling-in-the-hay', there would have been more than an indentation....and there would have been foot/shoeprints...handprints....etc., rather than the dusty barn floor appearing undisturbed.

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:07 pm

i think the comment was initially that it looked as if someone had been sleeping in the hay, and a later comment that two people of about the same size were laying in the hay. a man was seen on the premicise the night before the murders. involved?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:12 am

Wow...

I am constantly amazed at how much people think Lizzie was getting...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:23 am

I have been sifting through the Prelim and Trial Vol. 1...am about to start on Trial Vol. 2....WHO made the statement about the indentation in the hay during testimoney ?

Tracy...

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:36 am

theebmonique @ Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:23 am wrote:I have been sifting through the Prelim and Trial Vol. 1...am about to start on Trial Vol. 2....WHO made the statement about the indentation in the hay during testimoney ?

Tracy...

Try John Donnelly, page 437, of the Preliminary

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:50 am

Thank you Harry !!!

JOHN DONNELLY.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. John Donnelly.
Q. You are a hack driver?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go up to Mr. Borden's house on the morning of the murder?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About what time do you think you got up there?
A. I could not just give you the time. I think somewhere around 12 o'clock.
Q. Should you think it was before or after?
A. I could not say positive.
Q. What is your best recollection?
A. I should not want to make it much after 12.
Q. Did you go into the barn at all?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I might have been up there ten or fifteen minutes before we went in there.
Q. Do you know whether officer Medley was there at that time, or not?
A. I did not see officer Medley there nowhere.
Q. Did you notice anything about the hay?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was the hay?
A. I call it on the north side of the barn.
Q. What did you see in the hay, anything about the hay that indicated anything, except the usual
condition of hay piled up there?
A. It looked so to me as though there had been somebody laying on it; I do not know whether there had or not.
Q. Where was that?
A. On the pile this way.
Q. When you say "this way", what do you mean by that, north or south?
A. I should call it north west.
Q. Near the north west part?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Towards the window?
A. Yes Sir

Tracy...

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:06 am

Tracy, the Fall River Herald on August 4th had the following item. The early newspaper reports of the crime, especially those of the 4th, are highly suspect for accuracy. You have to take them as you get them.

"A Significant Incident.

Among the significant incidents revealed in the search through the premises was brought to light by John Donnelly, who with others searched through the barn to see if any trace of the fugitive could be found there. In the hay was seen the perfect outline of a man as if one had slept there over night. Besides this, it was evident that the sleeper was either restless or had been there before, because an imprint was found in another part of the hay that corresponded with the outlines of the first impression. Somebody may have been in the habit of going there for a nap, but the imprint was that of a person of about five feet six inches tall, and was shorter than Mr. Borden. This has given rise to the suspicion that the murderer may have slept about the place and waited for an opportunity to accomplish his deed."

Comparing that detailed description with Donnelly's testimony at the Prelim casts a lot of doubt on the newspaper item.

I also remember reading that someone said Donnelly had been drinking and therefore not reliable.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:47 am

'Hay', Tracy, keep on transcribing--
There is more about that mark in the hay in Cross.
Seems it was described as a foot long, a foot wide and 6" deep, and was rounded.

Prelim
Donnelly
CROSS-EXAMINATION.

Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What was it that looked as though somebody had been lying there?
A. This hay.
Q. What was it about it?
A. It looked as though there was a form of a body on there, that had been sleeping on there, or something.
Q. Do you mean as though somebody had been pressing, or making the impression of their form on the hay?

Page 460 (438)

A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long was the form?
A. I could not tell you; I did not measure it.
Q. How wide was the form?
A. I should think about so wide.
Q. Was it the form of a dog or a man?
A. That I could not say.
Q. How deep was the impression?
A. About five or six inches, I should say.
Q. That is the whole width of the space was an impression of five or six inches. Rounding or square?
A. Kind of rounding.
Q. Give the width in inches, if you can.
A. I could not.
Q. You gave the depth of it in inches; cant you give the width of it?
A. About a foot perhaps.
Q. Straight?
A. No Sir. It looked kind of rounding.
Q. Length ways straight?
A. It looked like kind of a round hole right in the hay.
Q. How long was the hole?
A. I cannot give any idea.
Q. Give the best idea you have.
A. Five or six inches I should say.
Q. Five or six inches long?
A. A foot long, I said.
Q. About a foot wide?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And six inches deep?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was the impression that you saw?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That made you think a man had been lying there?
A. I could not say what it was.

Somebody was drunk- was it Clarkson? Diana would know...

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:06 am

All I remember offhand is the witness statements -- where Charles H. Cook, No. 36 Borden street says: “Was with John Donnelly in the barn.
Saw nothing that looked like the imprint of a man. Donnelly had been drinking." (W.S. p. 20)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:09 am

Bingo, thanks Diana!
Harry's right about Donnelly.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:51 pm

Dang...I missed some of it. Grrrrr...it's back to the books for me. LOL...I will get it right one of these days. Thanks for all of your help. I keep learning more stuff everyday !

Tracy...

john · Post by **john** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:43 am

he's not the only one who mentioned the hay. i'll find it - you guys get me workin so!

Lazy · Post by **Lazy** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:04 am

Im new to this and im very far away, so Im sure I dont know anywheres near as much about this as you all do! But anyway... I heard there was a thick layer of dust on the floor of the barn with no sign of any disturbance... if this is so, then the imprint must have been made a fair amount of time prior to the murder and it would probably be irrelevant, at least to the immediate events surrounding the murders...
I can probably find which book it was that talked about the dust, but I'll have to have a look.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:43 am

Oooo...Ooooo there's another question we were waiting for john to explain. Thanks renewing the topic, Lazy.

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:56 am

Ok, lets try to settle the hay matter, and take it step by step. Firstly, how would a dog get in the barn if it was a dog? Or two dogs?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:57 am

Let's say it's a cat- or two cats.

Well, it's a way to give Lizzie fleas!

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:13 am

Secondly, I kinda doubt Andrew would want someone sleeping in his barn and went out there the morning of the murders, and we don't know why (as outlined by me earlier).
Talk about tension or "rift,"!
"Rift" may have turned to anguish, but we don't know that. We do know that it probably wasn't dogs in the barn. We also know, and this is maybe giving too much of a clue, that both Martha and Marienne Chagnon say that Wednesday night about 12:00 "they distinctly saw a man jump over the fence into the Borden yard and subsequently they heard a slight noise in the barn."

john · Post by **john** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:22 am

Think also about the "bunch of keys" Dr. Bowen brought out. Subterfuge?

diana · Post by **diana** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:05 pm

I think:

"they distinctly saw a man jump over the fence into the Borden yard and subsequently they heard a slight noise in the barn”

is from the Fall River Herald, August 8, 1892. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong here, please.)

In their testimony, The Chagnons never claim to ‘see’ anything. At the preliminary hearing they only say that around 11 p.m. Wednesday night they heard a noise outside. Mrs. Chagnon initially assumed it was their dog -- but then they thought it sounded almost like somebody jumping over the fence. The sound continued for about five minutes so, as Knowlton pointed out -- if it was someone jumping over the fence -- he had a "good deal of trouble" getting over it.

Then, at the trial, Knowlton refers to an experiment conducted by Officer Harrington, and Mrs. Chagnon's husband which involved banging a barrel of ashes kept on the Chagnon property and moving it about. Mrs. Chagnon said sometimes bones were put in that ash barrel and dogs did come into the yard for the bones. And she admitted that when Dr. Chagnon hit the ash barrel with his hand, it made the same sound she’d heard the night of the 3rd.

So quite a different scenario emerges when the Chagnons are given the opportunity to tell their story in the courtroom.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:33 am

I was wondering about the quotes on john's statement.
OK he reads newspapers- maybe those are sources for the few things which are just a little "off."
That makes sense.
Thanks, Diana for finding that.
Is that The Sourcebook?

Anyway, cats can get in and out of a barn without anyone knowing. At least more so than dogs.
And leave fleas.

I don't think it's Lizzie Borden's lover or Bridget Sullivan's for that matter, but some may enjoy that theory.

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:52 am

Actually, I got the source for that quote from Arnold Brown's book.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:07 am

AACKK!
At least you're having fun!

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:37 am

In due respect:
Do you know what "fleas" means?
Firstly, It's true that the quote is from the Fall River Herald, but it's a firm quote by a very respectable newspaper, more likely to be favorable to Lizzie perhaps, because it was owned in part by a Mr. Almy (ring a bell?), but still a respectable source.
The "who slept in the barn" is only important because the impressions were certainly bigger than cats. Anybody shacking in the barn would be pretty "barney," though, so think who could get away with smelling like that. The clue (more of) here is currently off limits.
We're getting there though - I have three cats, but unfortunantly, no barn.
Secondly, you can't take something that not just one, but two people have definately said, and because it doesn't fit your mold, just say it didn't happen. Lets just say the whole thing never happened and Abby and Andrew are in heaven with Lizzie and Emma.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:50 am

Wow - in reading back I see that Diana is not only thinking but actually on the edge.
No more clues though, you're all getting too close - one of my cats is name Toonces "The Cat Who Could Drive." But my cat can also say "mama."

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:50 am

Wow - in reading back I see that Diana is not only thinking but actually on the edge.
No more clues though, you're all getting too close - one of my cats is name Toonces "The Cat Who Could Drive." But my cat can also say "mama."

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:52 am

Sorry, Lydia. Like your pic!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:10 pm

To whomever you are referring to about their "mold"- you can have a mold if you want.
I'd say, I'd like to see the rest of the testimony on the marks in the hay and see just how big or small they were if they existed -and then go from there- which is how did someone get in there if it was kept locked?
The only person who smelled in a book was Billie Borden.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:16 pm

Fleas are those pesky liitle bugs which bite, causing flea bites. Lizzie said she had fleas that might account for the dot-sized bit of blood on her petticoat, Animals carry them and they jump very high and the eggs can go dormant
for very long periods of time- so that they might still be in the barn a year after the horse left.
We've looked, and it seems that the "fleas" remark, insinuating a menstrual period, is not used anywhere except in that one assupmtion by an author.

john · Post by **john** » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:17 pm

OK, lets resolve the "flea" issue, point by point!
Just kidding.
You're great Kat!
Less importantly though, was Mr. Borden's reaction to Dr. Bowen's "coming over" regarding the illness Mrs. Borden consulted him about, or "poisioning," really in proportion to just a doctor bill? Seems to me he was terribly irate, when after all, they were sick.
Andrew didn't like Dr. Bowen? Why?
If Andrew suspected pilfering from the barn why didn't he put a lock on it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:53 am

The information as to how Andrew abused Dr. Bowen when Bowen dropped over to see how Andrew was on Wednesday is from Lizzie's talk with Alice Wednesday night.
Therefore it is relying upon Alice telling us what Lizzie told her about that visit- when really Lizzie ran upstairs when the doctor came over.

The barn was unlocked in the morning by Andrew according to Bridget.

Preliminary Hearing
Bridget
60
Q. Now did Mr. Borden go out into the back yard before breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Take anything out?
A. Yes, he took his slop pail out.

Q. Did he go around back of the barn to take that out there?
A. Threw it out in the yard, I guess, and went into the barn and got some water.

Q. The door of the barn was open that Thursday morning?
A. He had a key, and opened it himself.

Q. He opened it, and got some water?
A. Yes Sir.

john · Post by **john** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:13 am

Hmm, true, but Alice is certainly relied upon for other things.
I'm sure I read the barn door was "pinned," but that could have been the way it was left during the day.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:50 am

Dr. Bowen testifies that Lizzie ran up stairs when he went over there that morning. Well, that he saw someone run up stairs and he assumed it was Lizzie. He didn't see her face.