Daylight robbery a beard?

[Audrey]

Rebello Page 36:

New Bedford Daily Mercury, August 10, l892

"Captain [Dennis] Desmond, Jr., then inspector of the department, was detailed to look after the stolen articles. He made a long search, but could find no trace of the missing valuables. The peculiarity was that the only thing disturbed was Mr Borden's desk where a man might be believed to have kept his private papers was significant. Mr Jennings, who is steering Supt. Hamscom in his efforts in behalf of the Borden family, was asked about the robbery, but he said he could not say a word about that."

(Bold emphasis added for this post)

Could the robbery have been staged to cover a "will search" or to hide that someone was snooping through other papers or documents?

[Allen]

I believe it was. Because it was after this that Andrew started keeping his bedroom door locked, but leaving the key in plain sight. As maybe sort of a warning to Lizzie? Hey look did you do this? Why else would you lockyour bedroom door, but then leave the key out in plain sight? And he mentioned that the horse car tickets were numbered, and thus could be traced, in the presence of Lizzie. Another subtle warning maybe? And he did not want the robbery talked about, he wanted it kept as much a secret as possible.Maybe because he figured out Lizzie did it, and didn't want others to speculate on the same? The whole visit to Alice on the night before the murders to me smacks of trying to establish her father had known enemies and that there had been trouble, because she wanted to deflect the blame away from herself for the murders.


Q. Anything about trouble with tenants, or anything of that sort?

A.She says "I don't know," she says," I feel afraid sometimes that
father has got an enemy. For."she said,"he has so much trouble with
his men that come to see him."And she told me of a man that came to
see him. She told me of a man that came to see him, and she heard
him say-didn't see him, but heard her father say-"I don't care
to let my property for such business."And she said the man answered
sneeringly," I shouldn't think you would care what you let your
property for." And she said, " Father was mad,ordered him out of the
house." She told me of seeing a man run around the house one night
when she went home.I have forgotten where she had been. She said,"And
you know the barn has been broken into twice."And I said ,"Oh well,
you know well that that was somebody after pigeons;there is nothing
in there for them to go after but pigeons." Well", she says,"they have broken into the house in broad daylight, with Emma and Maggie and me there." And I said ,"I never heard of that before." And she said "Father forbade our telling it." So I asked her about it and she
said it was Mrs. Borden's room,what she called her dressing room. She
said her things were ransacked, and that they took a watch and chain
and money and car tickets, and something else I can't remember.And
there was a nail in the keyhole;she didn't know why that was left;
whether they got in with it or what.I asked if her father did anything about it, and she said he gave it to the police,but they
didn't find anything; and she said father expected they would catch the thief by the tickets.She remarked "Just as if anybody would use
those tickets."

[Kat]

Can you please give us the source for this quote? Thanks!

How do we know when Andrew started locking his bedroom door and why?

[Allen]

This quote is from the trial testimony of Alice Russell.Sorry..I keep forgetting to site my sources.

[Kat]

Thank you! It's wonderful that you use them to illustrate your thoughts!!

Do we really know when the doors started being locked? Does anyone know- was that an author?
Morse says the doors were always locked- maybe he meant the outside doors only?

[Rolie Polie]

Rebello Page 36:

New Bedford Daily Mercury, August 10, l892

"Captain [Dennis] Desmond, Jr., then inspector of the department, was detailed to look after the stolen articles. He made a long search, but could find no trace of the missing valuables. The peculiarity was that the only thing disturbed was Mr Borden's desk where a man might be believed to have kept his private papers was significant. Mr Jennings, who is steering Supt. Hamscom in his efforts in behalf of the Borden family, was asked about the robbery, but he said he could not say a word about that."

(Bold emphasis added for this post)

Could the robbery have been staged to cover a "will search" or to hide that someone was snooping through other papers or documents?

I think that this topic deserves to be brought forward for some new thoughts, if there can be any. Are the two events related: daylight robbery and double homicide a year apart? Was it a message sent to Andrew that only he would understand? What do our new eyes and ears think of this? Is it possible that Andrew really did have people gunnin' for him?

[camgarsky4]

Audrey was spot on....from my perspective, this was clearly a search for 'estate planning paperwork' by an occupant of the household (Emma and/or Lizzie).

To believe that an Intruder entered an occupied house in the middle of the day and randomly found their way to the 2nd story Borden's dressing room is an extreme stretch. If the perpetrator was targeting Andrew specifically, how would the intruder even know which part of the house Borden slept or kept his 'desk''? Based on her testimony, sounds like even Bridget didn't enter the Borden bedroom 'suite'.

Since Lizzie helpfully showed the police the nail that helped pick the lock of AJB's bedroom door, that would suggest the bedrooms were kept locked before this event. So I think Curryong didn't have that part correct.

Once the desk drawer was visibly damaged, Lizzie/Emma wanted to divert attention from the desk as the focus and snatched a few items to indicate a robbery. Can't you envision the sister(s) hurriedly trying to pry open the drawer and panicking when it got damaged. Making the snap decision to grab a few random things and stage a burglary. The police clearly didn't buy it and I don't think Andrew did either.

[Steve88778]

Mr. Borden - President of the Union Savings Bank and Director of the Durfee Bank would have access to safe deposit boxes as well as his own home safe to keep important papers away from prying eyes. Why would Lizzie break into a desk and rummage through it hoping to find a will ?

It seems that speculation just glides over the maid and points to Lizzie every time. And what would locating the will prove ? Even if Mr. Borden put his estate in his wife's name and the girls found out, then what ? How to you explain that knowledge to Mr. Borden ?

[camgarsky4]

I would agree, it would seem logical that Andrew would keep a Last Will & Testament in his safe, but you may note that I referenced 'estate planning paperwork', not necessarily a legal document. I presume you are aware that after the deaths, a partial asset list was found that Abby had prepared. As an aside Andrew did leave $80 (~$2,000 today) in the desk....why didn't he put that $ in the safe?

Maybe the 'burglar' fiddled around with the safe and realized that was futile. Attention then turns to the desk and trying to jimmy the lock open. Since we don't have better details, I presume that is how the desk was broken open....the lock was forced.

You don't say in your message, but assuming you agree that an outside intrude is highly unlikely. That leaves 3 people in the house.

Why do I think the sisters over Bridget? 1) Basic math, they constitute the majority of occupants, 2) the sisters had direct access to the Borden bedroom via Lizzie's bedroom, so could operate in total secrecy, 3) Lizzie offered up the nail and noted that the cellar door was open. I find instances of Lizzie 'stage directing' to be many, 4) based on testimony, no known complaints from other employers of Bridget being a thief and 5) Bridget was an irish immigrant and hired help, if Andrew had the slightest thought of her involvement, she would have been dismissed.

I believe the sisters were very curious and concerned about how Andrew planned to bequeath his estate.

What is your theory or speculation about Bridget's involvement in either the burglary or the murders?

[MrsColumbo]

What an interesting topic. The whole thing is, really. Just when I think Lizzie did it, it’s that simple, I start down another path to discredit that. The fact that she wasn’t messed up at all and no blood was found on her immaculate hair blows that one out. Even if she did do it naked (soooo unlikely during the time period) her hair would still be a mess as would her shoes.

But, as to the theft. I have no doubt it was sticky fingers Lizzie. She had major issues with lying and stealing. I would bet that she stole the items of Abby’s just to release hostility. Then, to lie about it to Alice the night before the murders makes me stop and think, hm, maybe she did it to get sympathy. Very little explains the locking of all these bedroom doors. So weird. Does anyone know if this was always the case or after the “robbery”?

It’s very clear to me that there was something sinister going on in that house but I haven’t quite nailed it down. It’s impossible to but there are indications that Lizzie was resentful, but everyone else was quiet as the grave. I recall (and I’ll find the source) that family members were asked about any signs of insanity in the Morse or Borden family and one said “insanity in that family is the least of it” or something like that. Why did no one continue questioning why this person thought so. Almost everyone said that they were “peculiar” and no one was really comfortable being in that house. It should be noted that this is after the murders, tho, when people start adjusting their view considerably.

ETA source from family or friends when questioned about possible insanity:

“Rescom [sic] Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute [sic] the Bordons [sic] or Morses. We never heard that any one of them is or ever was Insane but I think some of them are worse then Insane. (Knowlton Papers, 102, 105)”

— The Case Against Lizzie Borden by William Spencer
https://a.co/8PdCaSS

Don’t know but the robbery is odd to say the least. Lizzie obviously disliked her step mother and resented her having anything so I think it’s very unkind to take her personal and treasured items, ie. the lock of hair, the watch, and I think the wallet that was Abby’s mother’s.

Why is there no indication that Abby was taken to task about this? Andrew seemed to let her get away with anything. Then that leads me down the rabbit hole of abuse.

[MaryM]

From what I have read any signs of insanity were on Lizzie’s father’s side not her mother’s. I’ve commented before that I haven’t seen any documentation of people praising Abby Borden as a good woman, etc.. aside from her step niece who grew up hearing resentment that they didn’t benefit from Andrew Borden’s money. If she was such a paragon people would have stepped forward in her name. What I have read is, Abby tacked the Durfee name on to hers despite being no relation, and no sign she was Christened Abby Durfee (blanking on her maiden name). What sort of person starts listing her spouses assets and coercing him into leaving everything to her and denigrating BOTH his daughters? Someone who wants to get her hands on those assets. I have no idea whether Lizzie was a kleptomaniac, but we hear and read so much gossip and denigration of Lizzie that is patently false, things that were they true there would have been confirmation of during her life prior to and after the murders.

[MrsColumbo]

You’re quite right, of course, in all of your points. I didn’t know all of that about Abby but it sounds to me like there was a lot of hostility and dysfunction in that household and she was, I wouldn’t be surprised, undoubtedly interested in being married for the security. As AB’s finances grew, so, I’m sure, did her sense of self importance.

And, legally, Lizzie was never convicted but was charged with shoplifting later in life. I really think that was symptomatic of her need to possess all the things she felt she’d been denied, or that there was some real cold hearts in that house. Being a kleptomaniac doesn’t equate to murder but it is fascinating that the robbery was done in broad daylight under veritably the same conditions as the murders. I believe, from all I’ve read, that there was little doubt that was Lizzie’s doing during or after an argument.

Does anyone know what the argument was about before the trip to Marion? That’s a tipping point here maybe.

But, as for Abby being a greedy nasty person that takes allows me to look at things from yet another perspective and I thank you.

We could question her motives as well for going to Dr. Bowen the day before the murders and saying she’d been poisoned. That could’ve been a setup against the daughters when it, in fact, was she who had designs on doing that. Maybe Lizzie was afraid of her. Maybe they all were to some degree. I have always thought that Abby was the intended victim and, with AB coming back earlier than expected, things went screwy. Remember that he reportedly went upstairs when he returned from town? What if he found Abby and figured out what happened? The shoe changes have always been suspicious to me. Harrington says tied shoes and he was uber observant, Lizzie says slippers, and he’s wearing Chelsea boots in the photo that appear too large for him.

As for the robbery and to stay On Topic (have been a Mod for years so totally get that. Sorry!), if Abby was inclined to be greedy or had delusions of grandeur, it is entirely reasonable for a daughter to stage a robbery and grab all of her personal treasures. It doesn’t make for a happy home but so be it. The lock wasn’t broken in AB’s room so it was an inside job, right? Nothing else was disturbed so it was a direct attack on Abby.

[MaryM]

Given the robbery that did or could even have not happened, was seized upon by Abby to start or continue grinding her vilification of the daughters “who will leave me penniless if you don’t write a will” axe. That makes me wonder if a widow’s dower of 1/3 of his assets wasn’t enough for her. Lawyers always keep a copy of their clients’ wills as they were the ones who filed for probate, and Jennings said he hadn’t written one. How do we know Abby didn’t hide the things she claimed were missing at her sisters, and make it appear Andrew’s desk had been rummaged through before they left? It isn’t that hard to arrange to be the last one out of a room or house. As to Andrew’s shoes, how did they know if he hadn’t gotten up and put them on before he was attacked. And per usual with the plethora of versions of what happened, there was one where it was said after the crime scene photos were taken his shoes were put on the body so he didn’t look undressed or improper in some way.

[Steve88778]

I think when someone's head looks like a watermelon that was thrown off a 30 foot building - shoes sure ain't going to make him presentable.

[camgarsky4]

Mary -- where is the concept that Abby was "vilifying" the sisters and driving Andrew to increase her share of the estate derived from?

[MaryM]

Wanted to delete as I forgot to quote who I was replying to

[MaryM]

I think when someone's head looks like a watermelon that was thrown off a 30 foot building - shoes sure ain't going to make him presentable.

Sorry that was supposed to be a reply to someone else, I’m new to online forums and clicked reply to the wrong post

[MaryM]

I think when someone's head looks like a watermelon that was thrown off a 30 foot building - shoes sure ain't going to make him presentable.

I didn’t say it made sense. I read a bunch of articles quickly over a few days time out of curiosity, not thinking my interest would linger beyond that so didn’t make notes. I’ve picked up a notebook and when I start reading the books and other things on line I am planning on making notes citing sources so I will be able to cite them if I refer to them

[camgarsky4]

While I have never read anything in the source documents or contemporary newspaper articles that Abby complained as you describe, even if she had, how does that make Lizzie any less likely to have been involved. If anything, it would substantiate the theory that Andrew might be changing his estate plan to lessen what the sisters would receive. That possibility is what creates motive for Emma and/or Lizzie.

[MaryM]

..

[MaryM]

While I have never read anything in the source documents or contemporary newspaper articles that Abby complained as you describe, even if she had, how does that make Lizzie any less likely to have been involved. If anything, it would substantiate the theory that Andrew might be changing his estate plan to lessen what the sisters would receive. That possibility is what creates motive for Emma and/or Lizzie.

Thing of it is, there was no actual evidence that Lizzie committed the murders. People can’t be charged without evidence. Several people gave witness to the police of seeing a man walking down 2nd street with what looked to be a rusty metal item under his arm at the approximate time after Andrew would have been killed, who matched the description of a man Ellen Egan (not sure if I’m remembering her surname). But if Abby didn’t complain, etc.. where does the frequent references to her wanting Andrew to have a will written, and her writing an inventory of his assets come from? As an aside, given it’s virtually confirmed that Andrew is extremely parsimonious, and asserted a great deal of control under his own roof and no doubt businesses, one would also assume he believed a woman should “know her place”, so what would you think Andrew would feel about his wife making a listing of his assets in view of what she sought to profit from after his death?

[Steve88778]

I agree 100% there wasn't one shred of evidence to even charge Lizzie with the murders. Nothing direct and of course, nothing circumstantial other that she was in the house or barn. Now there might have been evidence that pointed to someone maybe even Lizzie but we don't know. And nobody figured it out.
They base this case and infer guilt on the fact that she was in the barn getting tin or lead for fishing - and that she was eating pears - they think it's a flimsy alibi. But the all knowing fall river police don't even bat an eye when Uncle John Morse's alibi seems just a tad too perfect. Right - remembering the cap on the conductor's cap . I wouldn't have told anybody that. The first time I heard of that particular item in his list of things that he remembered - I knew something was a tad askew. But I guess you have your police and then you just have people that call themselves the police and collect a paycheck.

[MaryM]

Mary -- where is the concept that Abby was "vilifying" the sisters and driving Andrew to increase her share of the estate derived from?

There are frequent references to Abby complaining that if he didn’t create a will his daughters would leave her destitute... I have a hard time believing she wasn’t criticizing and building up her reasons for fearing she would be hard done by. She would have had to have made a major case for him to have bought into thinking his wife had a right to more than 1/3 of his estate which she would have legally been entitled to. Given Jennings said there had been no will it could be Abby laid it on a bit too thick for Andrew. Again, I have no fixed bias but with the police’s settling on Lizzie Borden so quickly instead of an investigation worthy of evidence based determining the culprit, and charging a woman merely because she was in the house when such an arrest is unconstitutional makes me suspicious. I can’t help it.

[camgarsky4]

Mary -- not saying these references don't exist, but I have read all of the primary documents and most of the contemporary articles and I have never read anything about Abby complaining to anyone about her financial situation. There is actually very few references to Abby's POV on anything and what there is would suggest she was a good, loyal wife and she kept her thoughts to herself.

That said, if she did do as you have suggested, how do you think that influenced the events and Lizzie's involvement (or not)? It would just seem to reinforce that Emma & Lizzie's share of the estimate might shrink.

[MaryM]

I haven’t read all the primary documents, merely going by what is no doubt hearsay by writers, and others. Of course fearing being disadvantaged could provide a motive, but thing of it is, that too is hearsay but is frequently used as supposition to suggest she had to have been guilty. But from what I have read, and some things are repeated enough across the different versions of the story that I feel confident in their being factual, that Abby couldn’t have been a contented wife. Andrew shouting at Dr Bowen for attending to his wife and that he wouldn’t pay a bill when she went to him because she suspected poisoning. I highly doubt that was a one off. I wouldn’t feel happy or comfortable being denied medical care if I truly thought I needed it. A woman of that period who prepared meals knew full well how easily food went off, and the symptoms of food borne illness, but the different versions all cite she claimed poisoning. That is rather out of the blue. If Andrew was as concerned enough to create a will, and that leading to his daughters fearing this, why his ire at Abby seeking medical care/advice?

[camgarsky4]

Sorry, but I'm not tracking on what difference it makes if Abby encouraged Andrew to make a will or was unhappy with her marriage. How did that result in her and Andrew's murders?

Are you saying that Abby pushed Andrew to update his Will, but that he refused. So therefore Lizzie might not have had the motive driven by the fear of losing her estate?