Lizzie is Innocent

[camgarsky4]

99.9% sure that the 2nd story windows were not washed that day. Exterior too high without an extension ladder and 2nd floor was not part of Bridget's cleaning territory. I would guess the exterior windows were washed by the farm staff when needed.

Regarding time Abby's time of death.....I personally believe the consistent suggestion of the blood coagulation and food digestion signal her earlier death. But as compelling the physical evidence, equally compelling is that no one saw or heard Abby after 9-9:30. How would that be possible if she is at the house with Bridget and Lizzie (presumably all of them moving around)? How and when did she get back up to the guest room to do whatever she was doing when killed? Is there a suggestion that she waited 1 1/2 hours to take care of the pillow shams? That she somehow bypassed Lizzie to go up to guest room? Lizzie would have to have been zoned out to not notice a murdering intruder nor a house cleaning step-mother in that narrow house. Even Lizzie, during her inquest testimony, couldn't explain a scenario of how Abby could have gone back up to the guest room without Lizzie being aware.

[PossumPie]

Steve88778,
I've edited this post 4 times now trying to be as scientifically accurate as possible. Forensic journals chart blood pool coagulation times at different humidities and temperatures, but it is NOT an exact science. Cooler temps can slow clotting while hotter temperatures can stop the process. I found a forensic journal article from 100 years ago with experiments in temperatures and clotting times. The more recent journals state that there are too many variable to point to a time just by the state of clotting of a blood splatter/pool.
From 40° C. upwards, coagulation time is actually lengthened and at 55° C. or 56° C. the blood does not coagulate at all. The few degree difference between upstairs than downstairs is not going to quicken the clotting by hours. It may have been 5-7 degrees warmer upstairs. As I said it is more of a chemical process, not a heat process. Obviously a crime scene with blood that hasn't started clotting and is dripping can tell us that it was recent, while a crime scene with blood that has all hardened can tell us it is at least "days" old. The material the blood spilled on would have a greater effect, but since it was carpet under both Mr. and Mrs. we can assume that variable was the same. Humidity has an effect, but that variable was the same upstairs and downstairs. The entire case of the "same time-of-death" scenario can't rely on blood evidence. The food digestion, last time she was seen, and the blood together all point to over an hour difference. Each component points to an earlier death. She was seen about 9:30 going upstairs to the guest room, and never after that. The logical reason that nobody saw her was that she was killed shortly after 9:30 and lay on the carpet behind the bed. I've heard people say "Anyone going upstairs could see her body" but this is only true if at a certain step they would turn and look across the floor and under the bed and towards her body. It was only a small area that she could be seen from the steps. She COULD have gone out and come back unnoticed, COULD have had a medical reason the food in her stomach was less digested than her husband, COULD have had a reason her blood was more clotted, but we must then dismiss Occam's razor which says "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity", in other words the simpler explanation is usually correct. As I've said in other posts, I'm not arguing for or against Lizzie's guilt here, I'm stating that scientifically, based on the limited evidence we have, the T.O.D of Mrs. most likely was about 1-1.5 hours earlier than Mr. Someone could still formulate a feasible theory of why a perpetrator hid for over an hour, but that isn't my intent here in this post.

[PossumPie]

99.9% sure that the 2nd story windows were not washed that day. Exterior too high without an extension ladder and 2nd floor was not part of Bridget's cleaning territory. I would guess the exterior windows were washed by the farm staff when needed.

Regarding time Abby's time of death.....I personally believe the consistent suggestion of the blood coagulation and food digestion signal her earlier death. But as compelling the physical evidence, equally compelling is that no one saw or heard Abby after 9-9:30. How would that be possible if she is at the house with Bridget and Lizzie (presumably all of them moving around)? How and when did she get back up to the guest room to do whatever she was doing when killed? Is there a suggestion that she waited 1 1/2 hours to take care of the pillow shams? That she somehow bypassed Lizzie to go up to guest room? Lizzie would have to have been zoned out to not notice a murdering intruder nor a house cleaning step-mother in that narrow house. Even Lizzie, during her inquest testimony, couldn't explain a scenario of how Abby could have gone back up to the guest room without Lizzie being aware.

Thanks for the clarification camgirsky4...I THOUGHT I read of Maggie throwing water up to the upstairs windows using a dipper, but I can't find any evidence of it. Not sure where I read it. I think Lizzie's testimony of a long-handled and a brush put the idea in my mind that Bridget was trying to wash 2nd floor windows: Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just came in the back door with the long pole, brush and put the brush on the handle. and getting her pail of water. She was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.
Therefore we don't know that the windows were up or down on the second floor. Still makes little difference at 9AM in the morning with regard to temperature difference upstairs.

[Marchesk]

As for opportunity - who said that the maid was outside all the time ? - The Maid ??? - sure you had a few that saw her washing windows but it takes but a moment to go in the house. I would try my best to stretch my mind and believing she did it. But I can't not with the poor police work and poor searches.

Lizzie also said the maid was outside washing windows, and Lizzie was inside the house when her step mother was upstairs in the guest bedroom. If the maid came inside to do the murder, how did Lizzie not notice? It's not like the maid could come inside and go upstairs, then come back down and go back outside without Lizzie knowing in that house.

[Marchesk]

Any number of people had motive, Andrew Borden had embittered many in the town against him, and quite possibly many one might not have suspected. I can’t help but wonder about any powerful people in the town he might have crossed,

Any number of people weren't in the house that day. We only have evidence for Lizzie and Bridget being on the property when the two murders took place. Anything else is pure speculation which has to include incredibly good timing by the perpetrator who also didn't see fit to target Lizzie. It's really hard to see how Lizzie didn't at least know the murders were going down.

[Marchesk]

Actors performing a “re-enactment” are known to put their own or a director's spin on a role. From what I have read, while the prosecution and others like reporters and others claimed her testimony was inconsistent, confused, etc.. none of them, as far as I know, accused her of being evasive or clever.

You can just read the words from the inquest. Doesn't matter what other people claimed, it matters what she said in response to the various questions.

[Rolie Polie]

I’m 62, I’m not anyone who has read any of the books, despite living in Massachusetts I never was interested in touring her home. Like many others, as a teenager I watched the made for TV movie in the mid seventies that starred Elizabeth Montgomery and for a month or so was fascinated by the case, and discussed it with friends. One of which had a great grandmother who had been a child in Fall River during the killings and spoke of the 40 whacks song, she also told us many fantastical stories attributed to Lizzie Borden. It must have been quite a hot house of speculation at the time. I haven’t thought much about the case over the years, and admit that after the movie just assumed she was guilty. Since the pandemic started I have had more time spent at home, and looked for more tv programming to watch and started watching YouTube programs on my smart tv, and some weeks back one program ended and one I hadn’t chosen automatically started, it was one on the subject of Lizzie Borden and for lack of anything else I decided to watch it. I had never heard anything about William Borden, or Ellen Egan, who witnessed him leaving the house at approximately the time Andrew would have been killed. I knew nothing about his believing himself to be Andrew’s illegitimate son or suggestions he was seeking money, his record of being confined to a mental institution on several occasions, and him being released 3 days prior to the killings.I have watched several of the less sensational programs on the subject on YouTube, including one of a presentation with a Miss Koorey, and I have come to believe that Lizzie Borden quite possibly was innocent.

Hi Mary! The William Borden angle has yet to be proved, but it sure is interesting to think about, isn't it? My finding Lizzie story is very much like yours, btw. Back in our day, there was precious little available to read or know about her, so when I read your post I had to reply. We have much in common in the way that you have progressed to commenting here. After a while you begin to figure out what is salacious and what is factual. Koorey, the Fall River Historical Society, and a handful of others have very good information. If you watch the TV documentaries, eventually the wrong information reveals itself. I'm shocked that network TV doesn't do as much due diligence with the history of this case that you would expect it to, getting very obvious names and events completely wrong.

My two cents, until I have time to say more, is that Billy Borden didn't actually have to be Andrew's flesh and blood- therefore, no birth certificate or DNA needed. I'd still wait anxiously for the results however. He only had to grow up BELIEVING that he was. Delusion that what is rightfully his was denied to him, entitlement, jealousy, same surname, and other things of a warped perception make up the means and motive to murder Andrew and Abby. If he was already known to the family, he also had his opportunity. Lizzy would have stayed quiet about him because she doesn't know what's true- no one has DNA yet and can't prove paternity- so it's still a YUGE, destructive scandal for her family. Ellan Egan had a compelling story to tell and so did her son-in-law, who watched Billy Borden basically admit that he killed Abby with his handy hatchet that went everywhere with him. It was his profession to be adept at killing sick, large animals with one, near-bloodless hit. Overkill came from rage, jealousy and entitlement. If this could ever be proven true, then Lizzie might not have lived much longer either. It's said that when she and Emma moved, they also kept their new home locked to the hilt and had bars on the lower floor windows. Emma may have disappeared in anger for reasons of self-preservation, not Nance O'Neill.