What is the most difficult question you can ask someone about the Lizzie Borden case. ?

[Steve887788]

This question is only for the greatest Borden minds out there.
It has to be true and verifiable.
Something that only you think YOU know.

[InvestigatorGal]

Sounds like a fun challenge Steve, but aren’t the things that are true and verifiable the same things that everyone knows already? It seems like it’s the unverifiable material that poses the hardest questions. Nonetheless, I enjoy a challenge so I’ll put my mind to it and see if I can come up with a question. If I totally misunderstood, please let me know.

[Steve887788]

maybe to Ask a question that is not that popular

[mbhenty]

Of course, the most academic and inquisitive question one can ask is, who killed the Bordens?

And there are a host of reasonable follow up questions such as, why were they killed, and where is the axe, or how did the killer get away without being seen, etc.

One question I find of interest, probably because I myself have never married, is why did the Borden girls not marry. Lizzie, though not beautiful, was far from unpleasant in physical appearance. And Emma, though plain and unassuming, was not ugly. And physical attributes aside some of the most monotonous if not downright ugly individuals (I should speak?) have landed attractive partners. And I understand that the reasons for not marrying are many if not complicated. Which may beg the question. Would you marry Lizzie Borden. And if so, would you sleep with one eye open?

[Steve887788]

I would be scared to live on French Street as her next door neighbor - or have a loud bird as a pet.

[mspitstop]

If Lizzie committed the crimes, where is the weapon?

[Steve887788]

If Lizzie committed the crimes, where is the weapon?

That's an easy one - they had a whole box of weapons in the cellar that Lizzie told the maid to get for the Fall River police. So they could find the smoking gun and arrest her for the double murders.

[leitskev]

They never found the murder weapon, Steve. There was gilt from a new hatchet in Abby's wounds. But even before that was determined, the cops knew they hadn't found the weapon, which is why they kept searching for days for it, and why they seem to have tried to rig the crime scene so that that broken hatchet could be presented as the weapon. Police testimony(Mahoney?) claimed the handle was originally right beside the hatchet head in the tool box.

[Steve887788]

Police testimony(Mahoney?) claimed the handle was originally right beside the hatchet head in the tool box.

Correct there was conflicting testimony between assistant marshall Fleet and officer Mullally - Mullally testified that there was a handle - Fleet said there was no handle.

And in 1892 most of the policemen that were regular police officers on the Borden case were promoted the next year to Captains or other higher ranks and Mullaly was not promoted and stayed a regular patrolman. Why is that ? - Hmm. Was somebody was caught in a lie ?

[camgarsky4]

Mullaly gave his testimony contradicting Fleet at the June '93 trial. So this would have been after any promotions awarded earlier in the year.

That said, Mullaly was a patrolman for 31 years...dying suddenly of a heart attack upon getting home from his shift in 1908. His 'death' article trumpeted his well known honesty, but for some reason career growth wasn't part of his life experience.

[Steve887788]

So if there was a handle that was found - why was it put back in the box ? Meaning to say - if the person that broke the handle did so by accident or on purpose - what would be the reason to keep it ?
And I would agree that Mullaly was honest and Fleet did not seem to be a very nice person - actually seemed pretty agressive in his attempts to want to keep asking Lizzie questions. So having said that. I guess we can come to the conclusion that Fleet lied about the hatchet handle. But it's a weird thing to lie about.

[Inspector]

Where are the 3 pear cores that Lizzie should have left in the barn loft , as she ate by the window?

[camgarsky4]

Good question. It is at the inquest Aug 8-11, that Lizzie tells Knowlton about eating pears in the loft. Alas, apparently the police didn't notice them (if they were there to notice) in their multiple searches between murder day and the inquest.

[Inspector]

Thanks, yes I’ve wondered why they never addressed it thoroughly. It would at least prove her presence in the barn.

[camgarsky4]

There were so many obvious (at least to me) follow up questions for a multitude of witnesses that for whatever reason Knowlton didn't feel compelled to ask or didn't think to ask. Deep sigh.....

[Inspector]

I agree, although he was determined, and pressed hard , there were many yes/no questions from Knowlton, while good ones, and hindsight, being ours, I’d like more pinning down of time periods, and actions.
I’ve read somewhere that Bridget was seen throwing water on the windows outside, but I wish we really knew how long she spent out there.
Another thing that came to mind as I was reading Lizzie’s inquest, is the feeling she was actually thinking ahead of Knowlton’s questions, as though she was foreseeing his next move.
At one point he appears to realize this when he said something to the effect, you’ve managed to put yourself in the one place that would prevent you from seeing someone enter the house , while you ate those pears.
I think of Lizzie as someone who understood people, and could read them, and not wear her feelings on her sleeves.

[camgarsky4]

One factor to keep in mind with Bridget is that there are zero instances of witnesses (excluding Lizzie) contradicting the activities that Bridget testified to performing that morning. Doesn't mean she didn't lie, but it certainly strengthens the opinion that she didn't when it came to her movements.

That said, there is the peculiar contradiction of when Abby instructed Bridget to wash the windows. Morse heard it at the breakfast table around 7:30ish. Bridget recalls receiving the instructions after Morse had left the house. It would seem likely that Morse was correct on the timing since otherwise, how would he have heard it. Even if Morse was involved in the murders (which I don't think he was), why would he lie about this tiny factoid.

Below, I've compiled a listing of Bridget window washing sightings during the 9-11am window. In addition, Mrs. Doctor Kelly saw Andrew trying to get in the front door at the same time Bridget testified it happened. At 9a.m, Mrs. Churchill saw Andrew looking into the backyard at the same time that Bridget testified she was vomiting in the backyard.

Jennings Journal page 221. Window washing order heard by John Morse (Abby giving Bridget instructions)

Jennings Journal page 92. Witnessed throwing water on windows by Mary Doolan. Saw Bridget two separate times while washing windows.
"Saw Bridget A.M. of murder as she was getting read to wash the windows - she had a pail and brush, but didn't see her washing them. This was
about 9:30 to 10 -- saw her again when I had finished washing my windows. She was just throwing water up on the windows - say about 1/2 hr.
after the time I first saw her. Saw nothing more. I was up in my room 10:30 to 11 - my room is on the N. side & has a window, but I don't
remember looking out. Came down around 11 and started a fire for dinner, then I went up again, and think I came down just before I saw the
crowd. That is the first I saw or know about the murder."

Jennings Journal page. 77 Witnessed washing windows by Mrs. Mark P. Chace. 9:55 am on the north side parlor windows.
"I saw Bridget washing windows @ 9:55 on N side. Parlor windows. She had pail & long handled brush. Windows & blinds were closed that A.M.
up & down. Dr. Kelly's work girl was washing windows at same time on S. side. "

Inquest page 126. Mrs. Churchill saw AJB leave around 9am and Bridget washing north side windows around 10 am
Q. Did you see any other member of the household?
A. No sir. I saw the girl later washing windows.
Q. How much later was it she was out washing windows?
A. It might have been 10 o'clock. I can't tell.
Q. Washing windows on the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long would you say she was out there, that you saw her washing windows?
A. I can't tell. I stepped into my bedroom for something. I saw her throwing water up on the parlor windows.
Q. She was washing the parlor window then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing the windows, whether that week or the week before?
A. I don't think she washes the windows more than once a week, and Thursday was generally that day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did.
Q. Did you watch her wash any window besides the parlor window?
A. I did not.

Trial page 645. George Pettee saw Bridget w/ window cleaning equipment at front of house around 10am.
Q. Did you at any time that morning see Bridget anywhere?
A. I did.
Q. About what time?
A. I should think around 10 o'clock.
Q. What was she doing?
A. She stood in front of the house, nearly opposite the front door.
Q. Did she appear to have anything with her, any implements of any kind?
A. Well, I saw the pail and the dipper and the brush. I thought she had been washing windows.
Q. Was she stationary when you saw her, or moving?
A. She was stationary.
Q. Talking with anyone or not?
A. No, sir.

[Inspector]

Thanks for the testimonies, this shows Bridget was on the North side where the side door is visible. Interesting if there was a possibility of looking through the parlor window into the front hall.
If she was stationary…. what was she doing?
Just me thinking
I agree, why would Me Morse lie about the window washing instructions?

[camgarsky4]

Mary Doolan saw her twice on the south side. Once when they talked and half hourish later. 99% sure the parlor door was closed (and locked) going into the front entry.

One of my pet (and somewhat meaningless) theories is that the man Mrs. Manley & Hart saw loitering by the driveway gate post (south side) just before 10a.m., was there to eyeball/flirt w/ Bridget. If you look at all the times folks saw Bridget, many were at that same corner of the house and roughly same time line.

[Inspector]

I see, if the door was closed in the parlor, that negates my suspicion on the reason Lizzie asked Bridget to close the Parlor blinds specifically.
I thought I was a locker, but the Bordens were serious lockers.

[camgarsky4]

Bridget stated very pointedly that she didn't have any cleaning responsibilities in the Parlor for the second floor, so I doubt she cleaned the inside Parlor windows. In fact, without checking, I'm pretty positive that is actually stated in testimony. So my guess is that Lizzie was meaning please close the exterior shutters. That is just my guess and assumes Lizzie said anything of the kind.

On the door locking phenomenon.....most folks directly associate the interior locks with family disfunction and started w/ the home burglary in June 1891. I disagree based on Lizzie's testimony that the door between her and the elders had always been locked and that whomever accessed the elder Borden bedroom during the burglary used a nail to pick the bedroom lock (back stair door). Wouldn't have needed to pick the lock if the locks were used until after the burglary.

[Inspector]

Mrs. Chase above testimony state she saw Bridget washing the parlor window at 9:55.
There is also Lizzie’s testimony that she specifically told Bridget to close the parlor blinds after washing the parlor windows — meaning outside— when she was through.
However strange that Lizzie would single out the parlor window blinds being shut because of the hot sun, and not the dining room which must have been just as hot with the ironing and all.
I can’t see it making a difference if the parlor door was shut, and blocked a view of the front hall from outside North, where Bridget was seen standing stationary by Lubinski, and washing by Mrs. Chase.
Lizzie obviously had the parlor window on her mind, and wanted those blinds shut, but was it only for the hot sun?

[camgarsky4]

The front parlor window faced west and since it was pre-noon, I can't imagine the sun was shining into the window yet....especially since there was a fairly large tree right in front of the windows to block the sun.

That is strange she picked on that particular window. Maybe she can an accomplice squirreled away in the parlor.

[Inspector]

I noticed that Lizzie denied speaking to Bridget about washing the windows, but when pressed, she said I remember, yes, and then admitted.
I got the feeling she was pondering the thought that Knowlton already knew the correct answer.

[Inspector]

Excellent point about the sun !