The Strangely sleep man on Third Street

[camgarsky4]

Administrator -- I hit 'post' inadvertently.....please feel free to delete the thread titled "The".

Background: Charles Gifford and Uriah Kirby testified that they both (but separately) encountered a man sitting on the steps leading to their home at 29 Third Street. Both instances occurred around 11pm August 3rd, the night before the murders. The man was sitting on steps just outside the Kirby fence gate. Below is the relevant testimony of both men describing the man and the episode. Gifford was the first and once inside the house, he heard Mr. Kirby speaking to the 'asleep' man. So these episodes happened within minutes of each other.

Trial Testimony. Page 1354-55
Charles Gifford, boarder @ 29 Third Street
Q. Will you describe the man?
A. The man, I should judge, would weigh 180 to 190 pounds, and he sat there on the steps apparently asleep[, with a straw hat pulled over his face, and I took hold of his arm and shook him, and in shaking him his hat fell off on the sidewalk, and then I lit a match and held it up in front of his face to see if I knew who it was, and found that I did not, and I went into the house and left the hat on the sidewalk. A few minutes afterwards Mr. Kirby went by.

Trial Testimony. Page 1357.
Uriah Kirby, owner of house @ 29 Third Street Trial Testimony. Page 1357-1359
Q. Now, then, begin and tell us what took place there.
A. Well, sir, he was sitting , and, as I said before, I spoke to him, hollered out to him or spoke loud. He sat there dormant, as it were, on about the middle step, I should think, either the second or third. He lay back against the side of a little fence that ran there. With his hat pulled down nearly over his eye, sitting there very quietly; didn’t seem to move at all; paid no attention to my voice. Then I put my hand on his hat on top of his head and shook him and spoke to him again; no reply. That is all that took place. I left him there and went into my house.

For both men, the hat plays a central role in their recollections. Gifford noted the hat was on the sidewalk when he walked past the man. And yet, the hat is back on the man's head minutes later when Kirby encounters him. Obviously the man put the hat back on his own head. That is pretty hard to do if one is asleep.

I know this is seems like a minor detail, but I find it very intriguing since it was the night before the murders.

[Kat]

I was reading this last night from my compilation of suspects in the Borden Case:

Screen Shot 2023-05-23 at 2.37.51 AM.png

[Kat]

And:

Screen Shot 2023-05-23 at 2.38.51 AM.png

[Kat]

It's from my own Word Doc but on this new laptop, I can't figure out how to copy/paste - so took screen shots.
I literally was reading this last night.

It mentions "Medley" and "Hyde" so I checked them both in Witness Statements and no mention of the Wednesday night episode, under those names, nor mention of Kirby and Gifford.

[Kat]

Here is the excerpt from The Boston Globe , Aug 11, 1892 that corresponds to the Jennings Journal entry, 43g., pgs133-4.
Under Index search "Hyde": "investigated mysterious stranger."
(I didn't copy book, I copied Boston Globe.)

Screen Shot 2023-05-23 at 4.04.23 AM.png

Screen Shot 2023-05-23 at 4.05.16 AM.png

[Kat]

Boston Globe, Jan. 11, 1893 excerpt:

Screen Shot 2023-05-23 at 4.25.35 AM.png

[Kat]

This guy's name is now "Snow" for some reason(?)

Screen Shot 2023-05-23 at 4.26.23 AM.png

[Kat]

I did find a Topic title here on the Forum called (in caps):
WITNESS FOR THE DEFENSE
May 2, 2011
by Shakiboo
(I am searching my computer)
G'nite

[camgarsky4]

Thanks Kat. I found the "Witness for Defense" thread you mention and read thru it.

The thread includes a summary of the "Kirby/Gifford/sleeping man on Third St" episode and it is loaded with errors. I clicked on the source that "Diana" provided and it took me to the Virtual Library website, but had a "Whoops" message across the screen. So couldn't find where she got her info.

Per both Kirby & Gifford's trial testimony, the 'sleeping' man was sitting on steps outside their fence gate (not on their porch); it was actually Kirby's house, Gifford was just a boarder; the men encountered the sleepy dude separately; they both approached the man as they arrived at the house from elsewhere. Kirby said something to the man (per Gifford), but we don't know what that was because all during the trial the attorney's kept minimizing witnesses recalling conversations. I presume something to do with hearsay rules.

In their testimony, both gents also answer the specific question whether they smelled or detected any alcohol and both said no. Gifford actually got down in the man's face, lighting a match to see him better. Apparently Kirby was elderly and had passed out on previous occasions. Gifford was making sure it wasn't Kirby.

The guy had to be very ill or drunk, but the timing of the event is what makes this stick out to me.

There was a pretty healthy dose of activity concerning the case between the hours of 9-11pm August 3rd. Lizzie got back from Alice's 9pm, Bridget got back from her walk 10pm (her friend lived on Third St.), a man possibly feigning sleeping next door to Chagnon's around 11pm, and the Chagnon women hearing a series of noises at the Borden fence at 11pm. Most likely none or certainly, not all, are inter-related.....but interesting all the same and worth some pondering.

I do tend to think that Mike the Solider was the wild-eyed man that Handy described on Second St. the morning of the murders.

[Kat]

The Porter excerpt does state that the Marshal sent Medley looking for Mike the Soldier again "several weeks" later, which may correspond to the January Globe snippet. Maybe they didn't think of him as a suspect, but rather a witness, to the occurrence you specified.

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- do you recall the source for the initial paragraph of your pasted info? Paragraph starts with...."Kirby was with Gifford....".

[Kat]

Yes at the top it says "Rebello, 132, and Hoffman 195."

[Kat]

I had not thought of Mike the Soldier as a Witness, only as a suspect who authorities could account for because they seemed to know him...

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- Is this the Hoffman book referenced?

"Yesterday in Old Fall River: A Lizzie Borden Companion" by Paul Dennis Hoffman.

In case anyone else is considering buying this book, Amazon has used copies for less than $10.

[Kat]

Yes, but not wholly reliable (what Borden book is?), but I use it for quick references to characters in the case.

[camgarsky4]

Curious if you've found much 'off' in William Spencer's book "Case Against Lizzie Borden". I've read thru it a couple times and only been able to identify a small handful of clear errors. For instance he didn't seem to be aware that nails in that era were square headed and would be better able to pick a lock than a round nail. But that type of 'miss' is pretty trivial and I only could find a couple more like that.

Have you ever contemplated writing a book of your learnings, experiments, evolving theories, etc? I think it would be great reading. I imagine you would be in 7th heaven if Harry was around to help pull that book together!
'

[Kat]

Have not read either Spencer book yet. I spent the last year reading a series of 32 novels,historical & generational, set in England starting in the 1400's thru the Industrial age and WWI.

Harry and I were going to collaborate on a book of Oak Grove cemetery, mapping the case characters plots and directions, with additional bio material.
We spent a lot of time on really nice headstone pictures to start and spent time with Tommy who ran the place, walking the place together and making discoveries.

We never discussed writing about the case other than contributing to The Hatchet magazine, which took all my time.
Stef and I had a theory which we pitched to Len & Bill, and were gratified when they both agreed it was plausible. We never developed it fully, due to 10 years working on the magazine. Putting out a magazine is happily grueling work plus my postings on the Forum over 20 years (with recent gaps) over 80,000 posts thru 4 incarnations of Lizzie Borden Forums. But thanks, and hope you all enjoy The Hatchet!

[Kat]

Have re-read the trial testimony of Gifford and Kirby, and as you infer, it does seem very suspicious, especially where they both say there was no smell of alcohol about the lounging man.
Why, then, are we redirected to a basically benign well-known drunk nick-named “Mike the Soldier?”
He seemingly admits to being around the area, but is no witness, nor latterly, a suspect.
(The longer I look at things presented to me “officially,” the more likely I get the impression I’m being manipulated by those “officials,” using a technique I call “look over here, not over there.”)

I will check Jennings Journal.

Edit here:
BTW it was Hoffman who stated “Kirby was with Gifford”, which camgarsky has proven to be inaccurate. Thanks George!

[Kat]

If anyone has newspaper accounts of this situation, I would think that would be a source to fill out this story. (with, of course, caveat: reader beware)

[Kat]

A really bad drawing by MOI, of all the steps, fences, and gate along the front of the Tripp/Kirby house on Third Street- plz click on pic

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- I've read all the newspaper accounts that 'pop up' when I search Newspapers.com w/ subject of Gifford or Kirby in 1892 and 1893. They all are highly consistent with the trial testimony given by both gents. Nothing additive. Too bad.

Jennings Journal interview w/ same folks (and Mrs. Kirby) also match up. I got the tidbit about Gifford lighting the match to see the guys face to make sure it wasn't Uriah Kirby from JJ. Apparently Uriah was known to 'pass out' periodically. I think he was in his late 70's.

The 'sleepy' guys hat being off and on is also emphasized in JJ.

[Kat]

Thanks Kat. I found the "Witness for Defense" thread you mention and read thru it.

The thread includes a summary of the "Kirby/Gifford/sleeping man on Third St" episode and it is loaded with errors. I clicked on the source that "Diana" provided and it took me to the Virtual Library website, but had a "Whoops" message across the screen. So couldn't find where she got her info.

— partial quote

Just FYI:
I am pasting the link here for my “Suspects In the Borden Case” from the LizzieAndrewBorden website.
Hope it works. This is the page Diana was referencing, and also myself, with those partial screen shots.It’s the 12th offering on the page.

https://lizzieandrewborden.com/

[camgarsky4]

Thanks Kat. Until know I had never read thru that suspect list....funny how often these gentlemen had "red faces"! Anyway, I presume the comments below are pulled from one of these two sources. Pg 132 of Rebello contains nothing except reference to the January, '93 article about finding Michael Graham, Handy's wild eye man, so I'm assuming Hoffman pg. 195 is the source? I don't have his book, if you do, would you mind checking page 195 to see if that is the original source?


Mike the Soldier — Rebello, pg. 132 . Also, Hoffman, pg. 195:
Uriah Kirby, a foreman for a local company, saw a stranger asleep on the front porch of Charles N. Gifford’s house on Third Street. Kirby was with Gifford at the time. Gifford was the next door neighbor of the Chagnon family. Kirby and Gifford woke the sleeping man and sent him on his way at about 11:00 P.M. on Wednesday, August 3, the night before the murders. The defense used this as proof there were strangers in the area who could have committed the crime . . . Some Borden historians believe that the sleeping man was not the murderer, but a local alcoholic known as ‘Mike the Soldier’ [Michael Graham].

[Kat]

Yes, that is Hoffman quoted. In my notes in the book itself, I had penciled in parenthesis around the words “Kirby was with Gifford.” (Erased before I took the screen shot) As you’ve shown, they did not arrive concurrently.

As you read the document, be advised plz, the last source listed is the one that is quoted or paraphrased.

And after all those suspects, I would like you’all to know:
I only type with one finger!

[camgarsky4]

Kat -- i was studying your fine artwork of the 3rd street view from in front of the Kirby's (aka Tripp's) house. .

What are the words to the left of the tree? I think one says "door open". Also, to make sure I'm getting them correct, what are the words describing the Kirby's steps and bannister? Bottom left of the drawing.

Do you think the 'sleepy man' was sitting on the steps in front of the fence gate towards middle of drawing? Did the Kirby/Tripp house have steps up to the gate and also up to the porch...both accessible from Third Street?

Do you recall from the source photo if the steps came right down to the street? Or was their some yard?

Screenshot 2023-11-25 225409.png

[Kat]

It looks as if the street is starting its descent down the hill, and to keep things level we see steps to enter the gate to the yard, and then a couple of steps set back from street with a “fencepost” to enter house or porch. Then multiple steps with a concrete or “solid bannister” leading to the front door.

To the left of the gate is a fence, ending in a tall fence post, then the driveway area (Changnon) that leads back towards the barn (set back from the street) and the “open door” might be to the barn.

In the picture then next would be the “house behind” which may be the Borden barn. There was a structure there seen looming behind the Chagnon barn (or outbuilding). Then next left is the Chagnon house itself. Lots of fences was my impression. Do you see the enhanced newspaper view if the doghouse and Chagnon back yard? That would put some of the envoirnnent into context, especially the Borden barn as it is not far from the Chagnon rear fence.

Again, my impression was or is that to accommodate the road starting downhill, the property and house began to be set back a bit from the street to take advantage of a natural leveling.

I figure you are more interested in the whole front of the “Kirby/Tripp” house and steps- well the pic did have the steps but not much more of the house than I drew.
We can’t ask the FRHS because they close “Lizzie” over the fall and the Holidays

[Kat]

Rear Chagnon yard with doghouse and looming building behind (Borden barn) from Phillips newspaper article.