there are too many unknowns, but here are a few thoughts:
- if bridget knew mrs. borden was dead, on such a hot day, she could have just thought, "screw the windows," which she seemed to do when working on the inside. did she find out that mrs. borden was dead when she started working inside the house? it could also be because of the note that she relaxed, but the note implied that mrs. borden would be back before dinner, along with lizzie's statement about meat.
- if bridget was guilty of something, she wouldn't call the police. if bridget was guilty of something bad, she would go along with whatever was happening.
- why did bridget return to ireland instead of just putting the borden family behind her and getting another job?
- bridget and lizzie both lied. the time line doesn't work. there is no way bridget could have done everything she said she did, especially with a ladder, and be upstairrs by 10:57. same for lizzie. time line is complicated but doesn't work before or after 11:00.
- why would bridget go to the hot attic on a hot day to lie down?
- if bridget was guilty of something terrible, lizzie would know she would never talk.
- if, in the unlikely scenario, bridget killed mrs. borden, and waited for mr. borden and to kill him, how could she know that mr. morse wasn't going to return and find mrs. borden in "his" temporary room, and how would she get lizzie out of the house after mr. borden returned, which, by testimony, she didn't try to do.
- if the food was poisioned why didn't mr. morse get sick?
- what if the killer was still in the house hiding when officer allen arrived, and was let out by morse and mingled with, or inconspicuously fled from, the growing crowd. sawyer couldn't have seen morse if he was at the rear (basement) entry. allen probably wasn't in the house for more than three minutes. lizzie never called for the police and was probably surprised when they came. morse seemed to arrive at the house at an unusual time, and emma seemed to be gone at a very unusual time for her.
- chlorophorm could be purchased in drug stores in 1892, and lizzie wouldn't have had to have gotten it from dr. bowen. i can't see a doctor risking everything by keeping silent in this case. i think to bowen the bordens were just weirdos across the street whom he served by his oath.
- by calling mrs. churchill over, lizzie perhaps knew she would start attracting people around (not neccessarily police) and make way for the killer's escape. lizzie never called for police help in spite of the horrificness of the crime.
- if lizzie had knowledge of something bad about bridget, perhaps even a little romp in the hay would be enough, bridget may lie - rather than face the worse than death penalty. it looks like she did lie. bridget would be wanting to be back soon to her true friends and family in ireland.
- uncle john may have thought he was just helping someone out who had been discussing mr. borden's will with mr. borden (he may have worried by the number of people around the house, and the money involved, that it was some famous thing) and ate some pears. by the time he realized he was implicated in a serious felony, he may have wanted just to get out of it real bad, as seen by his "post office" trips with lynch mobs around. what could be so important at the post office? we'll probably never know. this situation, though, would certainly mean some type of collusion between lizzie and uncle john, mostly by mail, and perhaps he was after a returned or unanswered letter that he was afraid the police might get.
notes
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
-
Tracie
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:48 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracie Fagan
- Location: Taunton, MA
Hey John,
How could Lizzie or Bridget for that matter know that neither would go insane over the killings and the questioning by the police? Bridget could have "lost it" ( had a mental breakdown) and reveal all to the authorities. Then again maybe she would just be considered crazy and sent to Taunton State Hospital for a nice long rest.
How could Lizzie or Bridget for that matter know that neither would go insane over the killings and the questioning by the police? Bridget could have "lost it" ( had a mental breakdown) and reveal all to the authorities. Then again maybe she would just be considered crazy and sent to Taunton State Hospital for a nice long rest.
-
FairhavenGuy
- Posts: 1136
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:39 am
- Real Name: Christopher J. Richard
- Location: Fairhaven, MA
- Contact:
John, many of your points are valid.
One, though, "why would bridget go to the hot attic on a hot day to lie down? " is easy to answer. She had no place else to go. She was a servant and, like it or not, her room was in the attic. Whether it was hot or cold or in between, when Bridget needed to be alone and rest, her room was the only place.
One, though, "why would bridget go to the hot attic on a hot day to lie down? " is easy to answer. She had no place else to go. She was a servant and, like it or not, her room was in the attic. Whether it was hot or cold or in between, when Bridget needed to be alone and rest, her room was the only place.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
good point. i'm not saying lizzie or bridget did anything. i'm talking about the lesser of two evils, on bridget's part, and for lizzie, the dealing with horror.
if lizzie knew her stepmother was dead why would she tell the police she went upstairs? she could have said she was just downstairs - what's the difference?
if bridget knew andrew had been attacked why didn't she tell dr. bowen's wife to call the police?
why wasn't bridget afraid of anyone being there? why didn't she ask - "did you see anyone, miss. lizzie," or "did you see anyone leave, miss. lizzie?"
why would bridget on a hot day in the attic sleep in her clothes?
and the biggest question of all, why would mr. borden's feet be facing forward, while his body is laying down?
if lizzie knew her stepmother was dead why would she tell the police she went upstairs? she could have said she was just downstairs - what's the difference?
if bridget knew andrew had been attacked why didn't she tell dr. bowen's wife to call the police?
why wasn't bridget afraid of anyone being there? why didn't she ask - "did you see anyone, miss. lizzie," or "did you see anyone leave, miss. lizzie?"
why would bridget on a hot day in the attic sleep in her clothes?
and the biggest question of all, why would mr. borden's feet be facing forward, while his body is laying down?
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
ur right fairhavenguy. my point was, was she actually there at all? but you are correct. i think correct on the woman emma visited in fairhaven too, though i havn't looked it up. i've read books by people who get them published and just say what they want to. read a whole book on the lindbergh kidnapping with absolutely no basis.
u sound v correct on fairhaven.
u sound v correct on fairhaven.
-
Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
It always struck me how remarkable little Bridget had to do as the Borden servant.
This is from her Preliminary testimony, page 25+:
"Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past eleven, with the dinner I had to get.
Q. Was it your habit to go up stairs that way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. When I got through with my work down stairs, if I had not anythingelse to do, I always went up stairs, before I started to get dinner, if I had time."
On the morning of the murders she was asked by Mrs. Borden what she had to do that morning. Replying that she had no specific chores, she was asked to do the windows.
You have to wonder how she would have passed the time if she didn't have the windows to do.
This is from her Preliminary testimony, page 25+:
"Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past eleven, with the dinner I had to get.
Q. Was it your habit to go up stairs that way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. When I got through with my work down stairs, if I had not anythingelse to do, I always went up stairs, before I started to get dinner, if I had time."
On the morning of the murders she was asked by Mrs. Borden what she had to do that morning. Replying that she had no specific chores, she was asked to do the windows.
You have to wonder how she would have passed the time if she didn't have the windows to do.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
-
Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
Speaking of Bridget, my mind seems to recall that Thursday was Bridget's half work day. Can't remember my source (Help, Diana!) but if I'm right it raises some interesting questions.
Lizzie asked Bridget if she was going out that afternoon. When Bridget replied she wasn't sure as she was not feeling well, Lizzie then told her about an alleged sale at Sargents. This conversation occurred just before Bridget went upstairs for her rest.
Mrs. Borden was already dead. The murder of Mr. Borden would have to be accomplished before the return of Uncle John.
If Lizzie was the murderess why the preoccupation whether Bridget was going out that afternoon?
Was she just making idle conversation to make things appear normal? Bridget testified that Lizzie had never before told her about sales. Emma had, but not Lizzie.
Lizzie asked Bridget if she was going out that afternoon. When Bridget replied she wasn't sure as she was not feeling well, Lizzie then told her about an alleged sale at Sargents. This conversation occurred just before Bridget went upstairs for her rest.
Mrs. Borden was already dead. The murder of Mr. Borden would have to be accomplished before the return of Uncle John.
If Lizzie was the murderess why the preoccupation whether Bridget was going out that afternoon?
Was she just making idle conversation to make things appear normal? Bridget testified that Lizzie had never before told her about sales. Emma had, but not Lizzie.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
-
diana
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:21 pm
- Real Name:
Yikes! I hope we haven't just been relying on Lincoln all this time about Bridget having Thursday afternoon off.
"Bridget considered herself luckily situated, despite the trying atmosphere of the house. She did not get two half-days off starting after dinner, like all her friends; she got all of Sunday, and Thursday from just before dinner, yet her wages were high, four dollars a week, paid only to cooks. Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning." (Lincoln, 75)
I always thought we knew Bridget had the afternoon off -- but where is the primary source? Maybe we just assumed it because of Bridget's testimony about Lizzie asking her if she was going out that afternoon. I mean, would Bridget be able wander off to get some dress goods if she wasn't on a day off?
"Bridget considered herself luckily situated, despite the trying atmosphere of the house. She did not get two half-days off starting after dinner, like all her friends; she got all of Sunday, and Thursday from just before dinner, yet her wages were high, four dollars a week, paid only to cooks. Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning." (Lincoln, 75)
I always thought we knew Bridget had the afternoon off -- but where is the primary source? Maybe we just assumed it because of Bridget's testimony about Lizzie asking her if she was going out that afternoon. I mean, would Bridget be able wander off to get some dress goods if she wasn't on a day off?
-
Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
Thank you Diana! You never fail to locate these sources.
Yikes is right! We need something more reliable than Lincoln. I don't think the $4 wage figure is correct. I seem to remember something like $2.50.
Yes, it does almost appear to be implied in Lizzie's remarks. Bridget did seem to operate on her own schedule and take a break when she wished.
In Rebello, someone (Rebello himself?) timed the trip to Sargents from 92 Second St. It took 8 minutes 24 seconds one way. They doubled that to make it 16 minutes 48 seconds round-trip. You have to add to that the time it took to find and buy the cloth. So it looks like a half-hour trip. If bridget did leave before she went upstairs (a little before 11) she could have made it back by 11:30 and I believe that was the time she was going to come down to get dinner ready.
Yikes is right! We need something more reliable than Lincoln. I don't think the $4 wage figure is correct. I seem to remember something like $2.50.
Yes, it does almost appear to be implied in Lizzie's remarks. Bridget did seem to operate on her own schedule and take a break when she wished.
In Rebello, someone (Rebello himself?) timed the trip to Sargents from 92 Second St. It took 8 minutes 24 seconds one way. They doubled that to make it 16 minutes 48 seconds round-trip. You have to add to that the time it took to find and buy the cloth. So it looks like a half-hour trip. If bridget did leave before she went upstairs (a little before 11) she could have made it back by 11:30 and I believe that was the time she was going to come down to get dinner ready.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
-
FairhavenGuy
- Posts: 1136
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:39 am
- Real Name: Christopher J. Richard
- Location: Fairhaven, MA
- Contact:
I thought I posted this earlier this morning, but it seems to have vanished without a trace.
Regarding the window washing. I've just been rereading Mrs. Churchill in, I think, the inquest. She says she saw Bridget washing windows and is asked about the frequency of the window washing. She says the Bordens' windows were usually done weekly, and generally Thursday was the day.
This comment is almost always overlooked, particularly by those who argue that Bridget flew into a rage over having to do the windows that day.
Regarding the window washing. I've just been rereading Mrs. Churchill in, I think, the inquest. She says she saw Bridget washing windows and is asked about the frequency of the window washing. She says the Bordens' windows were usually done weekly, and generally Thursday was the day.
This comment is almost always overlooked, particularly by those who argue that Bridget flew into a rage over having to do the windows that day.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
-
diana
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:21 pm
- Real Name:
I know.... I find this puzzling.
Mrs. Churchill said at the inquest:
"I don't think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did."
But then Bridget was asked at the preliminary hearing:
"Did you have any usual time to wash the windows?"
"No"
"How often did you wash them?"
"Sometimes once a month, and probably twice a month." (p. 181)
Would Bridget testify to being less industrious than she was? Still, I'm tempted to put stock in what Mrs. Churchill said, too. I think people probably did pay attention to the housekeeping habits of their neighbors in those days.
It's a little discrepancy that doesn't make sense to me.
Mrs. Churchill said at the inquest:
"I don't think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did."
But then Bridget was asked at the preliminary hearing:
"Did you have any usual time to wash the windows?"
"No"
"How often did you wash them?"
"Sometimes once a month, and probably twice a month." (p. 181)
Would Bridget testify to being less industrious than she was? Still, I'm tempted to put stock in what Mrs. Churchill said, too. I think people probably did pay attention to the housekeeping habits of their neighbors in those days.
It's a little discrepancy that doesn't make sense to me.
-
Pippi
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:56 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: WA, USA raised in CT
- Contact:
1. Bridget didn't go back to Ireland. Not long after the murders she stayed with her cousin Patrick Harrington in FR. She did get another job working for Hunt. She was later found working as a domestic in Anaconda Montana, married, and continued to work and move about the area till her death in Butte March 25, 1948. (Rebello p. 65-66)
2. As it's been mentioned Bridget had no other place to lay down other than her room, you mention later why would she lay in hot clothes..she didn't have the time to undress and redress one must remember the layers of garments worn by women of the period. There are times when the kitchen may have been cooler if the stove was not hot with fire which we know there were times the fire burned out.
3. I believe Dr. Bowen had a bit more interest in the Bordens than "weirdos across the street whom he served by his oath." as he accompanied Lizzie to church on more than one occasion. While a gentleman might do this Bowen was under no social obligation yet did so.
4. On Morse not getting sick, I'm having trouble recalling but did he not arrive either after the meal, or leave before the meal that was said to have made them ill?
2. As it's been mentioned Bridget had no other place to lay down other than her room, you mention later why would she lay in hot clothes..she didn't have the time to undress and redress one must remember the layers of garments worn by women of the period. There are times when the kitchen may have been cooler if the stove was not hot with fire which we know there were times the fire burned out.
3. I believe Dr. Bowen had a bit more interest in the Bordens than "weirdos across the street whom he served by his oath." as he accompanied Lizzie to church on more than one occasion. While a gentleman might do this Bowen was under no social obligation yet did so.
4. On Morse not getting sick, I'm having trouble recalling but did he not arrive either after the meal, or leave before the meal that was said to have made them ill?
-
Susan
- Posts: 2361
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:26 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: California
Maybe Bridget had free reign when she was done with her chores? I checked through the Preliminary and On Wednesday night, Bridget made dinner and finished ironing the clothes she had washed that week and went out afterwards.diana @ Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:26 am wrote:Yikes! I hope we haven't just been relying on Lincoln all this time about Bridget having Thursday afternoon off.
On Tuesday at supper (dinner) Bridget was short on rolls and ran out to purchase some with her money, but, there were none and she bought bread instead. When she got back, Abby was waiting for her to ask Bridget to go to the baker's to get some rolls for dinner. Sounds like Bridget didn't need to ask or tell anyone when she went out really?
Thursday is still in question as Bridget doesn't offer anything that was normally supposed to happen later on that day, but, if as Harry posted, Bridget could go and get her dress material and be back in time to make dinner (lunch) then there would probably be no problem with her leaving as long as her chores were done, which was the window washing.
Bridget having off on Sunday almost sounds like a given, I was brought up with the religious idea that you were to do no unneccesary work on Sunday and most stores and shops were closed that day. From what I've read, the Victorians followed that to the point where they didn't cook on Sundays but just ate leftovers. I don't think Andrew would want to pay Bridget for sitting around twiddling her thumbs?
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
"he (dr. bowen) accompanied Lizzie to church on more than one occasion" - pipi
where did you find this? it's very important.
i know some of the things about bridget are weak, was just throwing a few things out. interesting though that they developed into, which i had never thought of, she might have gone right to sargents. a woman of the mall ahead of her time.
where did you find this? it's very important.
i know some of the things about bridget are weak, was just throwing a few things out. interesting though that they developed into, which i had never thought of, she might have gone right to sargents. a woman of the mall ahead of her time.
-
john
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:50 am
- Real Name:
- Location: black hills, sd
hey tracie:
more notes.
i'm really just throwing questions out here and getting v interesting feedback.
what if what lizzie and bridget are acting is ex post facto? there's nothing they can do about what's happened, so they're making do with what is.
there still are more logic questions, though than the ones i've raised:
- if lizzie knew that her stepmother was dead upstairs, why tell the police that she had even been upstairs. what she said shows to me that she hadn't had time to develop an alibi for something that she didn't even know occured. now someone is going to come back and say that bridget will say lizzie was upstairs when her father entered the house so she had to say that. but lizzie changed that testimony several times. what if someone was upstairs when bridget opened the door for lizzie and bridget heard them and just assumed it was lizzie because as far as she knew they were the only two in the house, and lizzie subsequently adapted her story. the more she thught about it the more she wanted to be somewhere else, a long ways i'd guess. but she still did say she was upstairs, threading or something. why not just say she was downstairs? because bridget placed her up, or on the stairs. later she realized that it really didn't matter because either she bought a deal, or they weren't going to believe anything she said anyway, might as well confuse them.
- if thursday was the day to wash the windows, why did bridget tell mrs. borden she had nothing to do that day? did she really even talk to mrs. borden about them? here could be a key. bridget testified that the windows were done once a month(?), yet neighbors said they were done on thursdays. so, according to bridget's testimony, she was directed out of the house that day. bridget is saying that she talked to mrs. borden, then, or soonly, left the house, putting her out of the action. uncle john claimed to have heard the conversation, yet it happened after he had left the house. a preconcieved reasoning, or story between people who knew that something would happen that day?
why would bridget have to be asked to wash the windows if she was going to wash them anyway? another preconcievance might be uncle john's knowing exactly which trains he took, and times, elaborated by the conductor's hat number or whatever. could he have memorized the trains he had to take to get back to the borden house at the correct time? everybody has always just accepted the fact that uncle john was just kinda goofy regarding his involvement in borden, and i always wondered about that. he was ungoofy enough evidently to find his way around, and according to what we know was still trading horses. if he was trying to sell horses and had two hundred potential buyers standing there i think he'd be aware of it, yet critics just accept what he says as kosher that he never saw anybody at the borden house the fatal day and walked into the back yard and had a few pears. maybe all the participants here were drunk from overripe pears - do they go to alcohol? i have had birds i thought were giddy from old grapes at my grapevines. anyway there are key questions here that have either always been avoided or have gone unnoticed, and as harry says, the idea is to discuss them.
more notes.
i'm really just throwing questions out here and getting v interesting feedback.
what if what lizzie and bridget are acting is ex post facto? there's nothing they can do about what's happened, so they're making do with what is.
there still are more logic questions, though than the ones i've raised:
- if lizzie knew that her stepmother was dead upstairs, why tell the police that she had even been upstairs. what she said shows to me that she hadn't had time to develop an alibi for something that she didn't even know occured. now someone is going to come back and say that bridget will say lizzie was upstairs when her father entered the house so she had to say that. but lizzie changed that testimony several times. what if someone was upstairs when bridget opened the door for lizzie and bridget heard them and just assumed it was lizzie because as far as she knew they were the only two in the house, and lizzie subsequently adapted her story. the more she thught about it the more she wanted to be somewhere else, a long ways i'd guess. but she still did say she was upstairs, threading or something. why not just say she was downstairs? because bridget placed her up, or on the stairs. later she realized that it really didn't matter because either she bought a deal, or they weren't going to believe anything she said anyway, might as well confuse them.
- if thursday was the day to wash the windows, why did bridget tell mrs. borden she had nothing to do that day? did she really even talk to mrs. borden about them? here could be a key. bridget testified that the windows were done once a month(?), yet neighbors said they were done on thursdays. so, according to bridget's testimony, she was directed out of the house that day. bridget is saying that she talked to mrs. borden, then, or soonly, left the house, putting her out of the action. uncle john claimed to have heard the conversation, yet it happened after he had left the house. a preconcieved reasoning, or story between people who knew that something would happen that day?
why would bridget have to be asked to wash the windows if she was going to wash them anyway? another preconcievance might be uncle john's knowing exactly which trains he took, and times, elaborated by the conductor's hat number or whatever. could he have memorized the trains he had to take to get back to the borden house at the correct time? everybody has always just accepted the fact that uncle john was just kinda goofy regarding his involvement in borden, and i always wondered about that. he was ungoofy enough evidently to find his way around, and according to what we know was still trading horses. if he was trying to sell horses and had two hundred potential buyers standing there i think he'd be aware of it, yet critics just accept what he says as kosher that he never saw anybody at the borden house the fatal day and walked into the back yard and had a few pears. maybe all the participants here were drunk from overripe pears - do they go to alcohol? i have had birds i thought were giddy from old grapes at my grapevines. anyway there are key questions here that have either always been avoided or have gone unnoticed, and as harry says, the idea is to discuss them.
-
Tracie
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:48 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracie Fagan
- Location: Taunton, MA
Hey John,
Nice questions and you give lots to think about. On the day of the murders, we know that Lizzie was questioned but how closely? Lizzie, Bridget and Uncle John (I think) had time that evening and possibly the next day to talk about what happened and what they wanted to say to the police. You know, getting their stories straight. Of course we all know that the investigators split everyone up and get their side of the story, and then compare notes. When I read Lizzie's inquest, I actually felt bad for her. They questioned her six ways to Sunday. They asked the same question over and over again and circled around approaching the question from a different angle trying to get her to confess. That by it self would be confusing but remember that Lizzie was in shock from the murders (whether she did it or was a part of it) and she was medicated. Try and keep your story straight under those conditions!
On another note, maybe Bridget was hired to be a companion for Abby and to help take the burden off her shoulders at the same time. Both of her stepdaughters disliked her and Andrew was at the "office" most of the day.
Tracie
Nice questions and you give lots to think about. On the day of the murders, we know that Lizzie was questioned but how closely? Lizzie, Bridget and Uncle John (I think) had time that evening and possibly the next day to talk about what happened and what they wanted to say to the police. You know, getting their stories straight. Of course we all know that the investigators split everyone up and get their side of the story, and then compare notes. When I read Lizzie's inquest, I actually felt bad for her. They questioned her six ways to Sunday. They asked the same question over and over again and circled around approaching the question from a different angle trying to get her to confess. That by it self would be confusing but remember that Lizzie was in shock from the murders (whether she did it or was a part of it) and she was medicated. Try and keep your story straight under those conditions!
On another note, maybe Bridget was hired to be a companion for Abby and to help take the burden off her shoulders at the same time. Both of her stepdaughters disliked her and Andrew was at the "office" most of the day.
Tracie
-
Bob Gutowski
- Posts: 875
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:44 am
- Real Name:
- Location: New York City
-
Pippi
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:56 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: WA, USA raised in CT
- Contact:
Rebello p. 264-265- FR Daily Herald July 6, 1893 "...when the party returned up Main Street, there was a small crowed of urchins following them, until the Misses Borden stepped into Dr. Bowen's house."john @ Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:43 am wrote:"he (dr. bowen) accompanied Lizzie to church on more than one occasion" - pipi
where did you find this? it's very important.
FR Daily Globe Monday July, 24, 1893 "Yesterday morning, Charles J. holmes and Dr. Bowen called at the Borden house and escorted Miss Lizzie to the church."
The turn out for the Bordens funeral was family and few nieghbors/friends, Bowen and his wife were of the few who attended.
I was sure I read recently another tid bit about Bowen escorting her to church while the elder Bordens were away prior to their death, perhaps I read that in the archives? Perhaps someone else could shed some light on that one.
-
diana
- Posts: 878
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:21 pm
- Real Name:
There's this -- from the Witness Statements -- taken by Harrington and Doherty:
"Mrs. Jane Grey, No. 215 Second street. 'Dr; Bowen’s character is at least suspicious. Four years ago, while the Borden family were summering over the river on the farm, Lizzie remained at home. One Sunday evening during this time, she and Dr.Bowen came to church together, and sat in the Borden seat. I myself saw them this evening. At the time, and since, there was much comment on this act. Some remarked how courageous she
was to remain in the house alone; but others replied in a knowing way, perhaps she has very acceptable company.'" (p.21)
"Mrs. Jane Grey, No. 215 Second street. 'Dr; Bowen’s character is at least suspicious. Four years ago, while the Borden family were summering over the river on the farm, Lizzie remained at home. One Sunday evening during this time, she and Dr.Bowen came to church together, and sat in the Borden seat. I myself saw them this evening. At the time, and since, there was much comment on this act. Some remarked how courageous she
was to remain in the house alone; but others replied in a knowing way, perhaps she has very acceptable company.'" (p.21)
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
- if lizzie knew that her stepmother was dead upstairs, why tell the police that she had even been upstairs--john
--Lizzie had taken her clean laundry upstairs- hers and Emma's. That was something proveable. She was also going to iron handkerchiefs but we don't know from where they originated.
...........
- if thursday was the day to wash the windows, why did bridget tell mrs. borden she had nothing to do that day?--john
--Thursdays were a day to wash windows, but not necessarily that Thursday. Abby would decide which was window-washing day. Abby supposedly told Bridget the windows were very dirty. That sounds like they hadn't been done in a month. Bridget had spent what seems an unusually long time getting the laundry done that week. She wasn't ready to give out the last of the clean clothes until Thursday morning. Then on Monday she has to turn around and do it again. The weather could slow down that schedule, which it may have done that week. Bridget even had less clothes to launder, as Emma was away.
Anyway, I can't see Andrew paying a maid for doing nothing, so since the big laundry job was finally finished, windows might be next- as a sort of make-work, or because company was expected. (?) These are just commentary on your questions, which are pretty good.
--Lizzie had taken her clean laundry upstairs- hers and Emma's. That was something proveable. She was also going to iron handkerchiefs but we don't know from where they originated.
...........
- if thursday was the day to wash the windows, why did bridget tell mrs. borden she had nothing to do that day?--john
--Thursdays were a day to wash windows, but not necessarily that Thursday. Abby would decide which was window-washing day. Abby supposedly told Bridget the windows were very dirty. That sounds like they hadn't been done in a month. Bridget had spent what seems an unusually long time getting the laundry done that week. She wasn't ready to give out the last of the clean clothes until Thursday morning. Then on Monday she has to turn around and do it again. The weather could slow down that schedule, which it may have done that week. Bridget even had less clothes to launder, as Emma was away.
Anyway, I can't see Andrew paying a maid for doing nothing, so since the big laundry job was finally finished, windows might be next- as a sort of make-work, or because company was expected. (?) These are just commentary on your questions, which are pretty good.
-
Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Yes, I agree- that's why I said "supposedly." And bolstered my idea by the facts of the work around the place that week which was expected of Bridget.
Do we know if Abby was expecting guests, Monday?
(I think this question comes up once a year! That is a good reason to get the windows done, I think).
Do we know if Abby was expecting guests, Monday?
(I think this question comes up once a year! That is a good reason to get the windows done, I think).
-
Bob Gutowski
- Posts: 875
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:44 am
- Real Name:
- Location: New York City
-
Bob Gutowski
- Posts: 875
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:44 am
- Real Name:
- Location: New York City
-
snokkums
- Posts: 2545
- Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:09 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Robin
- Location: fayetteville nc,but from milwaukee
- Contact: