An Old Question- But still Unanswered

[Allen]

I have always thought there was a remarkable lack of blood at the scene. I tend to wondered most about how the killer got away considering it's assumed they would be spattered with blood. If it was a stranger, how did they get out of the house in blood stained clothing undetected? If Lizzie did it, there are infinitely many options to consider. What if she burned up the dress she wore during the murders, was it blood and not paint? What if she wore a gossamer waterproof, which would've been easy to give a quick wipe down? What if she put Andrews coat on backwards? What if she put on one of Abby's dresses? So many WHAT IF's it kind of makes your head spin. I have been doing a little research on drab paint. I found out that the color "drab" used for houses most often for that period consisted of a dull brownish color.The olive drab I usually found only in reference to military items. One site even gave directions for how to mix "drab" paint. Food for thought if you think the dress was stained with blood. How do you all think the killer got away with it? I'm very interested to know.I looked for information about the gossamer to post also, but I haven't had much success with that yet. If I find anything I will post it as soon as I can.

I posted these in another thread in Stay to Tea, but I thought I would repost them here for easier access.


The following hints for mixing shades for outside painting, may be of
service to persons in the country who have to depend on their own wits.
The colors are supposed to be first finely ground in oil, and then
mixed in small quantities with white-lead and boiled linseed oil. A
few trials will enable the novice to mix agreeable neutral shades -
especially if he will be content to add a very little of the darker
shades at at time, and try the effect with the brush. After the
proper shade is obtained, enough should be mixed at once to go over
the whole surface.


Fawn color. White, yellow ochre, and Spanish brown.

Drab. White, Venetian red, burnt umber, with a little black.

Gray stone. White, lampblack, and a little Venetian red.

Brownstone. Spanish brown, chrome yellow, with a little white and lampblack.

French gray. White, ivory black, with a little Indian red and Chinese blue.

Slate color. White, lampblack, and a little Indian red.

Sage color. White, raw umber, Prussian blue, and Venetian red.

Straw color. White, yellow ochre, and orange chrome.

Chocolate. Spanish brown and black - or, for a lighter shade, Venetian red and black.

http://www.epreservation.net/Resources/ ... Article/19
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a site with rooms in which "the decorative scheme features the “delicate neutral tints” — fawn, drab, stone, and gray "

http://www.mainehistory.org/house_restoration.shtml

[wintressanna]

Yes the lack of blood is remarkable. Especially considering that Andrew's murder is something of an after thought, that is, there seemed to be some time lapse between Abby's and his murder. He was still dripping when investigators got there! How much time could u possible have had to clean that up?

Maybe they werent killed where they were found...odd i know, but isnt that the simple but improbable possibility?

[Kat]

I think there was plenty of blood at the scenes. There were 2 pools of blood under the sofa and that pretty big pool under Abby's face. If they had had color film back then you might see the scene differently. That blood from Andrew had to seep through that sofa material and through the crevice where the arm of the sofa met the main seating shelf-and still pool on the carpet and seep through the floorboards. [:?: newest video- Luminol].
In the guest room there was blood on the rungs of a chair which is not in the photo, and behind it on the east wall, and blood found on the mop board around the corner of the bureau by the window, on the bureau drawers, on the pillow sham nearest the body and on the spread where it hung down, and on the bottom sideboard of the bed -(Am I forgetting anyplace?)
Did you see the photo of the guestroom with the carpet cut out? That's a large piece of carpet.

Anyway, whoever killed Abby, be it a house resident or an intruder, either would still have blood on them and would have to clean up before being around people- so that's what they did.

I was just reading in the Fall River Globe the opinion that proof of a delay between murders was that there was no trail of blood between the bodies, and I think that makes a lot of sense, as to answer why we wonder why there is not blood between the sitting room and guest room. During that delay, there was time to clean up a person to the point where they wouldn't track the blood.

Now, does this mean they washed or wiped their feet or shoes before leaving the guestroom? If Lizzie did it she could tip-toe into her room and clean up. If an intruder, it would be harder for them to get their feet cleaned enough to not track blood around. If "he" waited in the guestroom for the blood to dry, he might not track it around...

[snokkums]

Even if there was plenty of blood, it still seems that the crime scene was nice and tidy. Like somebodu cleaned up a little bit. And maybe Lizzie did burn the dress. There was a dress that she burned. But she says it had red paint on it and her sister emma backed her up on that. The only thing is, they really couldn't test the dress because it was gone. Geuss we will never know what was on the dress.

[Allen]

I think there was plenty of blood at the scenes. There were 2 pools of blood under the sofa and that pretty big pool under Abby's face. If they had had color film back then you might see the scene differently. That blood from Andrew had to seep through that sofa material and through the crevice where the arm of the sofa met the main seating shelf-and still pool on the carpet and seep through the floorboards. [:?: newest video- Luminol].
In the guest room there was blood on the rungs of a chair which is not in the photo, and behind it on the east wall, and blood found on the mop board around the corner of the bureau by the window, on the bureau drawers, on the pillow sham nearest the body and on the spread where it hung down, and on the bottom sideboard of the bed -(Am I forgetting anyplace?)
Did you see the photo of the guestroom with the carpet cut out? That's a large piece of carpet.

Anyway, whoever killed Abby, be it a house resident or an intruder, either would still have blood on them and would have to clean up before being around people- so that's what they did.

I was just reading in the Fall River Globe the opinion that proof of a delay between murders was that there was no trail of blood between the bodies, and I think that makes a lot of sense, as to answer why we wonder why there is not blood between the sitting room and guest room. During that delay, there was time to clean up a person to the point where they wouldn't track the blood.

Now, does this mean they washed or wiped their feet or shoes before leaving the guestroom? If Lizzie did it she could tip-toe into her room and clean up. If an intruder, it would be harder for them to get their feet cleaned enough to not track blood around. If "he" waited in the guestroom for the blood to dry, he might not track it around...

Well, by surprising lack of blood I have also believed that there should've been a wider circumference around the room. It should not have been all contained in the general vicinity of the body. If there had been a struggle of any kind you would think there would be more blood on the bed, the walls,and on the bureau beside the bed. If a person was struggling after they had sustained a head wound, you would think there would be more blood spray. Why wasn't any recorded on the bureau right next to where the body was found? The blood seems to be contained around the body, and the majority of the blood spatter seems to occur after Abby was already on the floor.Where is the cast off spray from the weapon? You're flinging and axe that is covered with gore, where is the cast off? Why wouldn't Lizzie track blood through the house? There should've been some kind of prints I should think, after Abby was killed. She was almost standing in a pool of blood when she stood astride of her during the attack. Maybe it's possible she took her shoes off, realizing they would leave behind bloody prints? But if she waited in the guestroom for the blood to dry, did she stand in one spot until it did? Because even if this would've been the case, there should've been more blood on the guest room carpet in my opinion. The lack of a blood trail also in my opinion points to Lizzie as a killer. Lizzie knew the house inside and out. She knew where to go to get cleaned up, and could've carefully kept from making any kind of trail until she got there. If it was a stranger, why would they care about leaving a blood trail?

[theebmonique]

I still think that the reason most of the blood was pooled around abby's head and not as much splattered in the near vicinity as you might expect, was because Abby was already dead or deeply unconscious /nearly dead, with little to no blood pressure when the attacker began inflicting the wounds on the back of her head. I am thinking that if there had been some blood pressure (even for several seconds) there would have been more splatter. I also am thinking that the wounds on the front of her head were either from her head hitting her head on the footboard of the bed during a struggle with or trying to get away from the attacker, from being whacked very hard with the axe handle, or maybe from being hit even with the butt end of the axe.

My source for coming up with this hypothesis is my experience of working for nearly 16 years in the hospital (Operating Room/Emergency Room/Lab).


Tracy...

[Allen]

I also am thinking that the wounds on the front of her head were either from her head hitting her head on the footboard of the bed during a struggle with or trying to get away from the attacker, from being whacked very hard with the axe handle, or maybe from being hit even with the butt end of the axe.

Tracy...

From Abby's autopsy report found on the Lizzie Andrew Borden Virtual Museum and Libary.

SECOND The contusion on bridge of nose was one inch in length by on[sic] half inch in width.

Could it be possible she was bashed in the face with the butt end of the handle first? If you are hit in the bridge of the nose with enough force, you're going to see stars. (well not literally but you get my meaning )

[theebmonique]

That is what I am saying.


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

Here's the link for Abby's autopsy report.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm

[theebmonique]

From Dr. Dolan's testimony/Preliminary Hearing/Day 4/8-11-92:

On the forehead and bridge of nose were three contused
wounds. Those on the forehead being oval, lengthwise with body.
Second. The contusion on bridge of nose was one inch in length by one half inch in width.

Page 421 (199)
Third. On the forehead one was one inch above left eyebrow, one and 1/4 inches long by 3/8 inch in
width, and the other one and 1/4 inches above eyebrow, and one and 1/2 inches long by 1/4 inch
wide.


Tracy...

[Allen]

Could the extensive damage done to Andrew's face have covered up the fact that he was bashed senseless as well?

[theebmonique]

I am not as sure about Andrew being knocked senseless before being axed. Since he was probably asleep, or nearly so, there was no need.


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

I am not sure if this is applicable to this thread, but another thing I have taken note of in reading and re-reading the autopsy reports, is that Abby's wounds were in various directions and she had wounds on both anterior and posterior aspects of her head (and some below the head on the posterior aspect), while Andrew's wounds were all parallel and in only one basic area on the anterior portion of his head/face.

I wonder if these variations give any clues as to state of mind of the attacker ? Abby's attack/wounds seem so haphazard and 'panicked', while Andrew's seem so straight-forward, so 1..2..3 (well, 10 actually)

We talked in another thread a while back about the possibilty that Abby's attacker could have come from across the bed, thus possibly eliminating the attacker from getting much blood on them.


Tracy...

[Allen]

I think Abby's wounds coming from different directions could stem from the fact that Abby was concious during her attack, well in the beginning anyway. Even if she was bashed in the face, it may not have completely immobilized her.She may have been turning her head from side to side, started out in an up right position, and ended up prone. This makes sense to me when I think about the variations in the wound patterns. Abby was moving. Andrew appears to have been asleep. I would think it is much easier to hit a sleeping target than a moving one. Much easier to just as you said to just 1-2-3...etc. Abby may have been moving about, so her wounds would've been varied I should think.

[theebmonique]

I don't think Abby could have kept wiggling around for any more than maybe even one of the 'back of the head' whacks, let alone the three on the front. I think the ones on the front probably rendered her at least extremely confused and unable to resist anything else. Plus, Abby having no defensive wounds also makes me think she did not do much resisting.


Tracy...

[Kat]

I think you're right in that there should have been cast-off blood spatter- but there wasn't. I guess the perps body caught that. I see more of a low-down digging hits at Abby- I never pictured the hatchet raised above the person's head to whack at her, tho, which would throw the cast-off toward the ceiling.
That's just the picture I have in my head.
I can see a surprised and ineffectual struggle, where Abby reaches toward the handle, and the hatchet handle comes around like an elbow and hits her on the bridge of the nose...

snokkums, there was not red paint ever named as the color on Lizzie's dress.

[snokkums]

oh ok guess thats my mistake sorry