Headed to Lizzie's !!!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:31 pm

In about an hour I am leaving for the airport...tomorrow and Friday night I WILL STAY AT LIZZIE'S HOUSE !!! I am so "axe-cited". I hope to have some great stories to share when I return. RobertHarry and his girlfriend are staying there right after my niece and I are. Maybe our paths will cross. OK...I am outtta here...talk to you all soon !

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:33 pm

WOO HOO!
Have fun!

I will be watching for that postcard!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:18 pm

I am so jealous! I SO want to be there!

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:18 pm

Seriously, Kat, we should look into a Lizzie Borden Society Forum Field Trip to Fall River--if enough people were interested, we could possibly "rent" the house for an afternoon conference or something. As Tracy said, we'll be staying in the Morse room right after her. Wish you could come too!!

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sun May 02, 2004 4:32 pm

That is a good idea!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:36 am

For starters...YES on the Forum Sleepover at Lizzie's House idea !!

Well... this time at Lizzie's as just as good an actually even better than last time. Staying in the guest room was great ! The second night we were th only guests in the house. After the tour on the first night I went down into the basement to check out the floor undernaeth the sitting room...to see if there were any stains...I could see none. The scary part came when Eleanor Tibeault, the WONDERFUL tour guide, did not realize I had gone down there, turned off the lights an shut the door ! I froze for about a second, then gathered myself together and walked upstairs. The folks upsatirs were as surprised to see me come through the door as I was when the lights went off. I went to bed befor my niece did. I leaned over the side of the bed and said "I am tired and am going to sleep...Good night Abby". It was a tiny bit scary at first, but nothing I lost sleep over. I didn't feel a "presence" in the guest room llike I did when I stayed in Lizzie's room. Next time I want to try the Jeenings room (?). It's the one with the sewing machine...the one from which the "sounds of children playing marbles" is often heard. They say this room is the "most active" OK, I do have more to tell, but I am working on catching up on my sleep from all the fun I had in Massachusetts. Tomorrow...part 2...Oak Grove Cemetery/Mr. Rebello Tour

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Fri May 07, 2004 10:45 am

hey, that all sounds delightful! i mean, it sounds like you got some of the more "rare benefits." like being shut up in the cellar...so you felt your way out! this is so funny and at the same time so horrifying. and to think you actually had the courage to lean over the bed and tell abby goodnight! now that takes guts, but i guess you're getting them. the cellar experience must have strengthed you. and you're going to try all the rooms?

for some reason this reminds me of another description by, i think, augusta -- it was so funny because someone was going but fearful about it.........and then someone gives a long description about how it's the most horrifying house on the face of the earth. haha.

that idea about the field trip is a good one. at one time, someone was going to head it up but apparently it fell through. now especially after so many reports here -- it seems that EVERYONE is going -- well, i'm going to have to make the time to go up there and do it myself. i want to investigate the house, but i'm not entirely sure i want to sleep there, to tell you the truth.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri May 07, 2004 12:04 pm

Thank you so much for the tour and the stories!
I had no desire to stay in that house- you are braver than I am!
Isn't it odd to really realize that we are walking around and have access to a major crime scene?
I can't think of anyother crime scene I might ever wish to visit! Not even The Polanski house- which is torn down now?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri May 07, 2004 3:45 pm

Thanks Monique, will look forward to Part 2!
I think I would want to stay in Lizzie's room (or
the Best Western) Which is "Jennings room"?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sat May 08, 2004 12:53 am

i really want to hear more -- everything. keep it coming. i like the way you tell it by sticking to the essential. what if someone back in 1892 saw an apparition from the future emerge from that cellar door and that was you? sleep on that one?

a compilation of "visiting the borden house" stories would make a nice book...........possibly, somewhere down the road. except that many individuals would rather focus on their own book, of course. but what i'm getting from these is how different each account is -- that's what is so interesting to me in hearing about them. that makes for a fascinating, absorbing read -- all put together in one volume.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat May 08, 2004 11:41 am

PART TWO---I did have a small flashlight with me when I was in the cellar, but I thought as I turned it on...maybe if I leave it off, I will see something...someone. I turned it on long enough to see where the stairs were and then turned it off. I was only scared for that instant when the light first went off. There are some weird feelings in that cellar, but if you can stand there for a minute...you get used to the darkness. I am almost sure there is SOMETHING down there somewhere. No, I have no solid evidence for that thought...just my gut feelings. The Jennings room is upstairs on the third floor. There was an Aunt of Lizzie's who drowned her children in a well (one of then crawled out alive), and it is said that the ghost of the other two are the ones who are said to be heard playing marbles and games up in that room. That's where I want to stay next. Haulover...you love Lizzie like we all do...you will be safe in that house.

Oak Grave Cemetery was great ! It was a beautiful sunny day. We sat at the gravesite and listened to a woman who was doing a radio talk show bit about staying at Lizzie's. She and her daughter/friends, had stayed in Lizzie's room the first night when I stayed. The gravesite is a very comforting peaceful place. Good vibes. I got some pictures if the inside of the rooms where they did the autopsies. Of course now they are just break rooms for the cemetery workers.

Mr. Rebello gave the most AMAZING Lizzie tour ! I saw so many places that helped me put things into perspective. But, I have so MUCH more to learn. I told him he needs to teach a college level course on the Borden murders case. I want to take it. I also told him he needs to do a part 2...to his "Past and Present" book. OK...the tour...the Swansea home was great to see. It's a bit disheveled, but not too bad for how old it is. Riverby...the house where Emma's wake was held is in very nice condition. We also went into Fairhaven to see where Helen Brownell lived and the house Emma stayed in while visiting there. I can't remember where, but I heard it described as nearly "ocean front" property....but it is at least a mile, maybe two from the water. Mr. Rebello made the story really come alive as we drove around. I KNOW I will be going back. If we do a Forum trip...I am sure we can get him to play tour guide again.

OK, next time...my visit to the courthouse and how I am so sorry I missed meeting up with FairhavenGuy and RobertHarry...and the carousel.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Sat May 08, 2004 1:36 pm

thanks Monique! there was a site I read once from
a Psychic who visited the Borden house and claimed
sexual abuse vibes from the basement. I found a short newpaper clip about the drowning children next door, the woman's name was Borden but it didn't say it was lizzie's Aunt. How related? Do you
know any more about that? thanks again, looking
forward to Part 3

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 08, 2004 6:01 pm

Thanks theebmonique! Len Rebello is just the Best! Here's a fan!

The cellar was not creepy to me, but my whole house experience was with Bill Pavao and that's a lot of positive energy there!

I had heard before the story was those children were heard on the stairs. Now, it's in a room?

The children who were drowned were living next door at #96 and were of Ladowick Borden, Andrew's uncle. The mother committed suicide after the murders. This might have been c. 1870.
Ladowick had 3 or 4 different wives.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat May 08, 2004 7:44 pm

I didn't get bad creepy feelings from the cellar...I just got an initial OH !! feeling when the lights first went out. There are weird feelings down there...not bad..just different. Maybe I should just say I felt a presence.

The way Eleanor explained about the children was that people who are in other parts of the house have heard children's voices coming from that room, and have heard what sounds like the children playing marbles. I guess their mother was actully Lizzie's great-aunt then huh ?

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat May 08, 2004 8:01 pm

Ladowick Borden [Parents] was born on 14 Mar 1812. He died . He married Maria Briggs on 8 Sep 1833.

Other marriages:

Darling, Eliza
Chance, Eliza t.

Maria Briggs died . She married Ladowick Borden on 8 Sep 1833.

http://www.tmason1.com/pafg750.htm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 08, 2004 10:37 pm

That's good Audrey!
The Borden Genealogy is pretty much the same, except the 3rd wife was Eliza T. Chace, married Feb. 29, 1849.
It also shows child of one of the first 2 wives as Maria Borden238, married Samuel B. Hinckley, Oct. 2, 1866.

For more, please see the genealogy links in "All Things Swift" at:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/NewResearch/Swift.htm

Laddy here has 4 wives:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/NewRe ... htm#chart4

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 08, 2004 11:32 pm

"The Mrs. Borden who threw her three children into the cistern of the house south of Mr. Borden's residence is in no way related to any of the deceased. Thus no claim of insanity can be drawn from that quarter." --pg. 58, Lizzie Borden: A Case Book of Family and crime in the 1890's.
Edited by Joyce G. Williams, J. Eric Smithburn, M. Jeanne Peterson. T.I.S. Publications, 1980.

This refers to a Borden wife which makes her not related to Lizzie.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Mon May 10, 2004 1:51 pm

Hi folks,
I just missed Tracy by hours--My fiancee and I arrived in Fall River around 4pm on May 1 to spend the night in the Morse bedroom. We had stayed there in March, in Bridget's room, and that time we just missed Kat by hours!! That first visit was rushed because we had other business to attend to and just used the Borden house as a hotel!! But this time we had time to take the tour and to explore a little ourselves. Again, we went to the front door and knocked. That Greek revival facade is kind of stern, and surprisingly, the door itself is imposing. The granite steps are steep and the door is high, so that when you are knocking, you have the impression of waiting to go somewhere important. I guess that was the idea borrowed from classical antiquitity--that the very business of entering someone's domain is an event. Today, doorways are so practical by comparison. I really think of the house itself as an actor in the drama. Anyhow, Eleanor Thibeault must have been standing right there, because she opened immediately and knew that we were the folks from New York. To us Bordenites, it is funny that the guestmasters seem so nonchalant about being in the house! Eleanor has her share of wierd experiences, but she doesn't come right out and tell them. I on the other hand was captivated the moment the door opened--the entryway, the steps, the doors. The front stairway steps are steep and "shallow"--obviously peoples' feet were smaller years ago--so that nowadays, our feet gouge impressions on the backs of the steps. The bannister is low when you arrive upstairs so that you have to lean down a little to grab it. We went immediately to the bedroom, and almost immediately we had an usual event. I stepped into the bathroom (the former clothes closet) while Tania, my fiancee, was unpacking. After leaving the bathroom, I snooped around in Lizzie's and Emma's rooms and then returned to my fiancee saying, "You just missed it!" Now this is from an eminently practical woman who happens to be an attorney and is quite sceptical of these kinds of things--She said that her wallet, which had been placed squarely on the bed, well away from the edge suddenly found its way to the floor, and landed as if it had been thrown, not just tumbled off!!! I first thought she was teasing me, but became convinced when she repeated the story to others with great earnestness. This didn't really scare us, but made us just think "Oh boy!!" Nothing else like that happened, and we really weren't scared to stay there, but let's just say we were aware of what happened in that room. What saved me from being real scared was the fact that the murder happened so long ago and happened (so it seems) not out of random mad violence, but for a "purpose." We kept awakening not out of fear, but because there is a lot of noise out on 2nd street with the bus depot and late night revelers and hot rodders passing by. This was undoubtedly true in Lizzie's day, though probably not at night--that there was a lot of noise on the busy street--this would make the guest room an ideal place for a murder, even in broad daylight--lots of activity out on the street to cover up any noises. I forgot to say that we did say some prayers for the happy repose of Abby's soul, just in case she felt like coming back. And we prayed that if anyone came back, it would be she and not the murderer!! The boards creak when you walk around, and the bed itself is very comfortable--it's a pleasant, fairly large room. The spot that kind of "haunted" me was the fireplace (once functional, but out of use since Andrew installed radiators, all of which are original) mantel hidden behind the bed. (Gotta get back to work, more later in future installments)

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Mon May 10, 2004 5:56 pm

Robert Harry--Borden House Part Two. After the "wallet" incident, we spoke with Eleanor who told us of the young woman working at the house who saw the impression of a body on the bed in the guest room after she made the bed up. The woman was visibly shaken and quit soon thereafter (though she did come back to be interviewed for a TV special). We sat in the parlor and watched snippets of the various TV documentaries about the crime and the house. We were reminded that it was in the parlor that the police named Lizzie as a suspect and that she extended her hands and said, "I am ready to go now." I did not feel particularly eerie, just very aware that it was in these very rooms that the main events took place. It is ironic, because the house now seems so cozy and comfortable, and often the fellow guests (as was the case with us) are delightful. Ironic because what is now a place for camraderie and conversation was once filled with the negative vibes of the Borden family's oddness. I snooped around Lizzie's room trying to figure out secret hiding places. We were told that Lizzie had her slop pail and washstand behind a red curtain and that she had a red curtain draped over the door (locked) that led to Andrew and Abby's room. This visit, it was the doors that got to me. I guess I was reflecting on the postings about the Chinese chi philosophy--and how all those doors really mess up psychic energy. Though the house does seem more spacious than one might expect, you can see how small the Bordens made it by locking the doors and creating distinct and discrete living areas. You can see the old pipes for gas lighting, but Andrew only had kerosene lamps, so he mayhave shut off the gas. Practically everything (excep of course the furniture) is original--the window panes that Bridget washed, the door frames, the radiators, the glass door knobs. The keyholes have little metal "petals" over them that you move aside to insert the key. Curiously, people love to sit and chat in the sitting room--much like in Lizzie's day. Tania and I had dinner at the Abbey--a really delightful experience. The restaurant is not actually in the former church, but in a side building that once was the parish hall. It seems all the wood work is original, and it is a charming and lovely space. The food is excellent (with New York prices I might add). After dinner we drove around the Highlands. It is a lovely area indeed. Many old Victorian homes still proudly stand and many are beautifully maintained. It is surprising, since the Fall Riverites we spoke to said that the economy is still depressed and many young people move away to start life elsewhere. Our B&B fellow guests were all Fall River natives who were staying at Lizzie's because they were friends with the folks who watch over the house. Those folks told us that the new owner is determined to keep it as a B&B, but the fact is that the new court house is going to be built across the street where the bus station now is, so there is some talk that the temptation may be too great to turn the house into law offices or something, though I honestly did not get the idea that this would be so. Anyhow, the Highlands are lovely--it was a sunny but cool evening, and we parked across from Maplecroft and gawked (discretely) for a while. If Lizzie stepped out front, she could have a view of the Taunton River. The Highlands really are on a hill, and the area was peaceful, serene, and dignified. You can still see the back porch where Lizzie was bothered by the crowing bird of Mr. Brayton, and see the garage which she built. Indeed, the word "Maplecroft" is still covered by that board. As we were gawking we saw a young couple enter the house. Maybe that was Mr. Dube's son and his wife. Fall River seems disjointed--there are several distinctly different areas, and when you are up on the hill, even though you are only a few miles from 92 Second St., it seems like you are a world away. Perhaps that is one reason Lizzie could fairly peacefully live there. We drove by the cemetery (went in the next day), and I kept trying to imagine Lizzie going around in her horse-drawn carriage and then later, in her chauffered automobile up and down these very streets. More later...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon May 10, 2004 8:14 pm

Thanks, Tracy and Robert Harry!!! I love hearing your firsthand accounts of the Borden house and Fall River. You both did what I would do, poke around and see if there may have been a space I was drawn to to possibly hide something. To be in the very rooms where everything took place must be an overwhelming experience, to stand where Lizzie once stood and imagine the goings on of that fateful day. I envy you both!

Kimberly · Post by **Kimberly** » Mon May 10, 2004 8:26 pm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 10, 2004 8:37 pm

Thanks you guys for the great reports!
It's wonderful to hear member's stories when they return!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon May 10, 2004 11:24 pm

I was so sad that I could not meet up with Robert Harry or FairhavenGuy. I did get in to Fairhaven...even got to see THE courtroom. I took a few pics, but then the camera went dead...grrrrrrr. By the time we got done, we had to be back in Fall River to meet up with Mr. Rebello.

On my NEXT trip, I will head for FairhavenGuy's office VERY FIRST THING ! He sent me some Fairhaven info, but it didn't arrive until the day after I flew out.

I am glad Robert and Tania had a great experience. It seems that all of us from the forum who stay there, actually get some sort of "special" experience.

We NEED to seriously consider a Forum sleepover at the house. Maybe in a year or so...after my credit card has recovered from this trip...LOL. Maybe we can get Mr. Rebllo to at least give us a "mini clinic"...or something. I am sure we could figure a way to fairly compensate him. I tell you, his tour was AMAZING...and we didn't even see everything...but we got in all we could. I can't say it enough....AMAZING.

I would also love to take the Fairhaven Tour. I am sure Chris does a WONDERFUL tour as well.

I am trying to get my pics from the disc in the digital cam I used...it is being difficult with me, but then I am new to digital cams and this is a borrowed one.

More later...

Tracy...

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Tue May 11, 2004 12:10 pm

More on the House--I'm still too technologically illiterate, so unfortunately I did not take any digital photos--however, after having finally learned the computer there is no excuse for learning to take and post digital photos. The thing about staying in the house is that you become aware of the daily life of the inhabitants. Just seeing the chamber pot in Lizzie's room and the wash stand in the guest room makes you remember events recounted in the trial and think about what life was really like. There is an 1890's copy of a hymnal of the Christian Endeavor Society in Lizzie's room with handwritten notes on the inside back cover by a member describing her plans for a march to Boston, how neat!! Lizzie's room interested me greatly, as it is comfortable and there is a little lounge that I tried out and it was comfortable. I can see Lizzie lying there and reading (or plotting!!) By the way, that would be an interesting topic--the plotting of the crime--how long beforehand did they start? Where did the hushed conversations take place, etc. At the house, the whole front part of the upstairs (the hallway, the former dress closet and the guest room) are really like an entirely separate apartment--again, a perfect place for a murder and/or plotting talks. In the guest room was a dress worn by Liz Montgomery in the movie, and there is a dress in Emma's room supposedly worn by Lizzie as a young woman. Like some of you have said, I was surprised how petite the dress was--there is no way Lizzie was obese, although she may have gained weight during her incarceration and later in life. Emma's (formerl Lizzie's) room is nearly claustrophobic. It is amazing to think that the girls' rooms plus the guest room (which they used as a parlor) was really for them the whole house. It is not inconceivable that Lizzie would have killed for a bathroom, or at least some more space!! The clothes closet (which now is a bathroom) is pretty spacious indeed. Nowadays, there is not closet in the Morse room--you have to hang your clothes on a clothes tree. I didn't see any evidence of former closets in the room, so probably it was so in Lizzie's day. Susan, I am still curious as I know you are about that half-cupboard, half drawer set thing in Lizzie's room which was called a "closet" in house plans. According to Eleanor, that area was covered by a red cloth and Lizzie kept both her chamber pot and her wash stand there, which was considered odd. It is not surprising that the choice rooms are in the center and rear, since they are quiter than the guest room. We watched the Liz Montgomery movie in the parlor which I had never seen before and enjoyed. The house tour lasted over two hours (possibly because I was asking so many questions). We all wondered where the Bordens took their baths and how frequently they took them. I voted for the laundry room behind a curtain, as the kitchen would have been too public and busy. Supposedly, Victorian ladies did not bathe in the nude, but wore a robe in the bathtub!! The places I felt some weird vibes were: the stairways (both front and back), and in the front part of the basement (nearest 2nd street)--there was definitely something very weird there--I sensed a presence but I know not what. More later...

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:28 pm

Wow, such great reports from Lizzie's house, thanks
Tracy and RH, makes me want to go see inside myself and feel the vibes. The children-playing is
so curious, as is the weirdness from basement.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 11, 2004 7:47 pm

From what I recall reading on the old forum, Robert Harry, that half cupboard space in Lizzie's room was originally a closet. I assume without a door if Lizzie went through the lengths of hanging a drape in front of it. Did you get to see inside of the elder Borden's closet alongside the chimney? There were supposed to be these small doors that opened up into the chimney cavity for some reason, I think there was one down in the kitchen closet also. Those sound like they opened up into the wall space, might be a good place to throw a bloody hatchet to get rid of it?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:46 pm

What do you mean, Susan? Do you know where you know that from, about the "cavities?"
I looked in the kitchen closet and I didn't see that-
There were definitely cavities in the chimneys in the cellar.
All kinds of nooks and crannies and sort of *shelf-type* places.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:56 pm

***Is that going to be our honeymoon? ***

actually a honeymoon would be one way of surviving the house through the night. but what are you going to do when the spirit of lizzie enters with an axe? scream louder?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:59 pm

robert harry:

i appreciate those details. like the height and depth of the stairs, and how the bannister feels at the top. that wont' show in a photo.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 11, 2004 9:10 pm

"Susan, I am still curious as I know you are about that half-cupboard, half drawer set thing in Lizzie's room which was called a "closet" in house plans. According to Eleanor, that area was covered by a red cloth and Lizzie kept both her chamber pot and her wash stand there, which was considered odd."--RobertHarry

I had the impression that Lizzie's closet and her chamberpot area were 2 different places.
So far, I have found Officer Desmond at trial answering about searching Lizzie's room. The question breaks out the closet from the curtained area. I thought Lizzie's private area was in the southwest corner where the lounge is now.

Trial
Desmond
Page 735

Q. You searched that room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You understood that was Miss Lizzie's?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. You searched that bed in the same thorough manner?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the little alcove?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. With the portiere over it?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the book-case or desk and the closet?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Everything done?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Thoroughly?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Looked at the carpets to see if there was anything under them?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Moved things just as you wished to?
A. Yes, sir, gave it a thorough search.

Q. Did you find a couch or lounge in that room or something like that?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Turned it over, bottom side up, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did not leave anything untouched?
A. Tried not to.

--Does anyone remember a better description?
I know the newspaper had some description of Lizzie's room.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed May 12, 2004 2:02 am

What do you mean, Susan? Do you know where you know that from, about the "cavities?"
I looked in the kitchen closet and I didn't see that-

I believe it was from......AGH, brain death, I can't recall his name, he worked on the B&B and portrayed William Borden in one of the Lizzie shows. He posted on the old forum awhile ago and we were asking him questions about the Borden house. For some reason Augusta's name comes to mind when I think about it. Anyhoo, I believe it was he who had mentioned about the small doorway in the elder Borden's closet near the chimney. Does that ring a bell at all?

Okay, had time to think on it, I believe it was Bill Pavao who had mentioned those small doors or answered someone's question on them.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:19 am

You know what's so interesting about being in the house--you are so awed by the experience that you really should have a note pad with things you want to check. I did not see any closet in Lizzie's room and I failed to search the closet in Andrew's room (if there still is one)--In general, though, (at least nowadays) there aren't many closets at all. The closet in Emma's room which I did see is very small with fixed hook-racks (like the kind we had in olden day elementary school cloak rooms). These hooks looked very old, possibly there when Emma was. It is clear, though, that in Lizzie's day, people did not keep a lot of clothes in their rooms--quite likely they had clothes trees like they have now. This must be the reason the Borden's had such a large "dress closet" in the front second floor hallway. Also, didn't Lizzie talk about Abby keeping "a great deal of her things" in the guest room dressing table?--she mentions her "best cape which she wore on the street." In any case, I concur with Kat--by far the most "interesting" place to hide things is the basement.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Wed May 12, 2004 10:28 am

Kat, re: the book shelf set of drawers thing and its being covered by Lizzie in red drape--I don't know where Eleanor got this from. I noticed that the tour guides are quite knowledgeable, but they seem to have ideas like this that has no documentation. Sounds from the testimony you quoted that the "alcove" is not the same thing as our shelf/drawer "thingy."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:07 am

Thanks Susan- that is Bill Pavao. But you specifically mentioned the kitchen closet and that was really the focus of my question.

He researched the testimonies and the newspapers and re-created the rooms as best he could. He also wrote a script for the guides for the last August showings. I think he has provided scripts for the guides ever since he became curator.
However, they don't necessarilly use them- everyone is different.
RobertHarry, I think your guide Eleanor is Ed Thibualt's wife. He has been around Lizzie a long time. I don't know if Eleanor is using a script or adding some of her own ideas. That happens, no disrespect.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Thu May 13, 2004 9:48 am

No disrespect at all!! Eleanor has done a great job not only of learning about the mystery, but (by her own account) becoming "fascinated"--I could say "addicted" to the case. Just a few more reflections on being in the house. We had the pleasure of sharing the house with 2 couples of native Fall Riverites--I reveled in hearing that local accent and imagining Lizzie speaking. BTW, it seems that the accent is still going to be around for awhile, since young people we met had it too!! I rue the disappearance of local accents. For example, a recent arrival to New York City called a friend because a deliveryman had a strange accent--turns out, he was speaking with a New York accent!! Anyhow, one of the gentlemen grew up just a few blocks from the house and had to pass it everyday on the way to school. He admits to being fascinated by Lizzie, but admits also that local folks did not speak much about her. He is probably in his 60's and remembers an old Fall River friend who died in his 80's who saw Lizzie as a kid. According to my housemate, this man told him that when he would be out with his mother, they would see a big fancy care pull up to the curb. The boy would crane his neck to see who was inside and his mother would say, "Don't pay any attention to her. She wasn't very nice to her parents."

How's that for Yankee understatement!!?? Everyone at the house that day (and night) believed that Lizzie was guilty though she did not necessarily do the deed herself. My new Fall River friends said that there are still Bordens, Durfees, Grays, and Braytons around. One couple were even members of First Congregational, Lizzie's original congregation. Back to the house. I say that the house itself is an "actor" in the drama because it lends itself to the kind of goings-on that must have taken place on the fatal day. Lack of hallways, locked doors, totally separate living quarters, a maid who never, ever entered the masters' bedchambers, etc. I think Kat said that you have to call out to locate people in other rooms--there is no easy communication from different parts of the house. It is actually conceivable that Lizzie may have missed out completely on the "action" simply by doing the things she said she did. Of course, I don't think so. For one thing, the floor boards creak and the stairs are very difficult to run up and down on (especially considering victorian clothing), they are quite steep and shallow by our standards. Certainly, Abby would be heard crashing to the floor if indeed she did so. Psychologically, you can see how Lizzie and even Emma would feel constrained and restless (the house is ample, but the inmates chose to seclude themselves in discrete portions of it). Mrs. Borden's dressing room (now a small bedroom) on the second floor was larger than I expected. Eleanor Thibeault said that one of the house maids' daughters refused to go to the far side of that room because she felt terrified in it. (I went there and didn't feel anything). THe attic also is interesting. Bridget's room is cozy and comfortable, until you realize that in her day she had neither heating nor cooling up there. But up there, you are really removed from the rest of the house. THere is a wooden "fire door" that flaps up and is fastened up by dowels to permit entry to the attic at the top of the stairs. It was there from the construction of the house. In case of fire it was meant to be closed. One would hope (as Eleanor said) that they would first alert the maid to the danger. In Lizzie's day what is now the bathroom was an unfinished bedroom that Morse sometimes stayed in. If he was in the mood, or the type that would do so, he could easily have had trysts up there (with Bridget or someone else)--and/or have had privacy to plot and plan. The whole rest of the attic--a pretty large area--was storage space in Lizzie's day. Now it has been made over into sleeping quarters. I think one room is the Jennings room (or Knowlton)--it is quite large with trunks in it. You have to be careful not to bump your head on the sloped ceiling (in Bridget's room, too). Lizzie would have had to "halloe" pretty loud to wake Bridget up. For some reason that back stairway fascinated me. One final point--Eleanor was saying that Mrs. Churcill must have been quite the nosey neighbor, because she claims to have noticed that Lizzie looked shaken. She claims she saw this by looking out her kitchen window through Lizzie's screen door. Eleanor did an experiment and claims that it is impossible to notice very much about a person's face if you stand approximately where Churchill's house was and look through the Borden back door screen. Anyhow, these are my reflections, I tried to give some interesting reflections. Others can provide more technological delights, like photos etc. And I can't wait to see Tracy's pictures. We hope to go back, perhaps regularly if the place remains open. It is a neat place to stay and the surrounding region is well worth visiting--Newport is just a short drive away, for example. I will request Bridget's room--it's cheaper, quieter, and you have first dibs on the bathroom!!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu May 13, 2004 10:26 am

Thanks Robert Harry and Tracy for the messages on your trips.

Robert, that's interesting what Eleanor had to say about Mrs. Churchill not being able to see Lizzie's facial expression through the screen. The direction of the sun at that time of day would be nearly overhead so it would not be much help as far as adding light. And if there was too much sun its reflection off the screen would make it impossible to see anything.

Of course, Addie had first seen Bridget and knew something was the matter and maybe in her mind remembered thinking she saw Lizzie agitated but that is a stretch.

Something else to ponder.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu May 13, 2004 1:07 pm

Thanks RH, I just love the descriptions of the house
and all your impressions. In the house I grew up in
my bedroom had built-in 3 drawers and a big space
on top, that had a door. I wonder if that was for the
chamber pot in olden days? Interesting also about the fire door to attic, we had the same thing. In the
kitchen I am also interested in what cupboards they
had in 1892. Are there built-in cupboards? Thanks
again Robert Harry!

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Thu May 13, 2004 1:16 pm

Nancie, I am very interested in your impressions of the house you grew up in, as it was so close to the Borden house. Did you feel isolated in different parts of the house? Could you hear conversations easily from floor to floor? Unfortunately, there is nothing original in the present-day "Borden" kitchen--even the authentic stove is an antique purchased from somewhere else. The present stove was transformed from wood-burning to gas, so there are always pilot lights going. Someone at some point installed all 20th Century cabinets and sink along the back wall of the kitchen, and the former sink room is now a bathroom, so none of Lizzie's cabinets remain--except one cabinet that has been moved to the basement. Also, remember, there is a printing press attached to the Kelly side of the house, so that the former owner put a door from the kitchen leading directly into the printing business (so he could walk right from breakfast to work). This "new" door is opposite the rear door we are all familiar with. I hesitate to use compass directions, but I would say it's on the south side of the house. There is a narrow enclosed alley way between the Borden house and the printing press, and you can see the clapboards of the Borden house that once faced the side yard. Because of the printing press, you can't see out any of the south-facing Borden windows (for example, in the sitting room) which are always kept with the shades pulled.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:09 pm

Thanks Susan- that is Bill Pavao. But you specifically mentioned the kitchen closet and that was really the focus of my question.

Kat, I don't recall exactly, but, I seem to remember him saying that there was one of these doors in the kitchen closet by the stove, but, that it had been sealed up. It would make sense as there was one upstairs directly in the closet above it from when the house was 2 flats. If I even had a clue what to look under, I'd go and search the archives to see if I could find that particular thread.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:12 am

Robert Harry @ Wed May 12, 2004 10:28 am wrote:Kat, re: the book shelf set of drawers thing and its being covered by Lizzie in red drape--I don't know where Eleanor got this from. I noticed that the tour guides are quite knowledgeable, but they seem to have ideas like this that has no documentation. Sounds from the testimony you quoted that the "alcove" is not the same thing as our shelf/drawer "thingy."

I asked Bill about this closet as he is helping with a genealogy project of Joe's. He gave me source for the *script* at the B&B that he believes shows the washing bowl and the slop pail in that closet, which Eleanor told you about. He says she is correct in what she told you.

Preliminary Hearing:
Page 433

Q. Anythingelse beside that?
A. We did not go into any other part of the house besides. We generally looked around the premises, did not disturb any bureau drawers or anything at that time.
Q. Do you remember what the washing arrangement is in Lizzie's room?
A. I have an indistinct recollection there was a bowl there.
Q. A little alcove in the south corner and a bowl?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Any running water?
A. I did not see any.

Rebello
109

"The dressing case, commode and closet were in turn examined by the officers."--"A Search of the Premises," Fall River Evening News, Monday, August 8, 1892: 1.

Rebello
110

"One thing struck me forcibly. How could Lizzie Borden have come in the dainty place and remove the traces of such fearful work without marring all the delicate purity of everything with which she had contact? Why, the washstand even is in a recess veiled by a pale silken curtain. A soiled finger pushing it aside would leave a mark, and there is none."--"A New York Woman Describes the House," Fall River Daily Herald, August 24, 1892: 4.

--I didn't ask him for source. He was interested in the discussion. I thought I would give you his sources here.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon May 17, 2004 2:15 am

Thanks for that, Kat. I was always under the impression that Lizzie's toilet area was just a corner of the room that was curtained off. Since Emma could come in and out of Lizzie's room at any time, it may have been nicer and more private that way.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Mon May 17, 2004 1:40 pm

Yes, thanks (as always), Kat. Is there any way to get hold of that artcle that sounds fascinating, "A New York Woman Describes the House" ?
Thank heaven for Bill Pavao!! NOW my question is, if that thingy was a combination of shelves and cupboard, where was the closet? Or did they refer to that whole thing as a "closet"?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Mon May 17, 2004 8:04 pm

I have been wracking my brains to remember where I read that great article about "New York
woman visits . .." I am picturing myself sitting on my couch when reading it which means it is something I have here, I
went through my stuff, NY times articles, Yankee,
Heritage, nothing. Sorry RH.
In my room and my parents room was an alcove
with built in drawers and a big closet space above.
It was just a big and deep space above the dresser.
I guess you would call it a closet. what else?
In both rooms it was in a an alcove that could
have had a curtain. RH makes a good point, no bloody fingerprints anywhere?

Kimberly · Post by **Kimberly** » Mon May 17, 2004 9:14 pm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:30 pm

Susan @ Mon May 17, 2004 2:15 am wrote:Thanks for that, Kat. I was always under the impression that Lizzie's toilet area was just a corner of the room that was curtained off. Since Emma could come in and out of Lizzie's room at any time, it may have been nicer and more private that way.

I thought the area was over in the southwest corner-but I think it was the cops who described that. I will look some more. However, Harry found more source for us that implies the closet, coming up:
By the way, these closets, I think, are kind of shallow, if the built-in wall thingy in Lizzie's room nowadays is anything to go by.
Also, I thought maybe Emma used the toilet as well. It would make sense to use the larger room, and maybe the set-up was designed by Emma first when it was her room?

Trial

Mrs. Holmes testimony, page 1502:

Q. Now, tell us as well as you can what they did about searching that room, Mrs. Holmes.
A. They walked around the room. They went to that little closet that is used as a toilet room and pulled back the portiere, and looked upon all the shelves above and below, and moved what things they chose. They looked around the bed, under the bed, felt of it, and they went into Miss Emma's room. I did not see particularly what they did. They were gone a few minutes and looked around there and came out."
.....

This is from Alice Russell on one of the searches, page 412:

"...A. Yes, sir. I think one of the officers took the keys that lay on the bureau after Miss Lizzie had left and unlocked one or two drawers in her bureau, and didn't search any farther there. I think they opened what she called her toilet room, pulled the portiere one side, just looked there a little. ..."
................
Thanks Harry!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue May 18, 2004 2:11 am

Thanks Kat and Harry, great find! So, from Mrs. Holmes testimony we get that there were shelves in that closet, but, nothing about the cabinet doors or the drawers down below. It doesn't sound as if Lizzie could have actually gotten into the closet if there was shelves in there, sounds almost like it was a bookcase.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:22 am

Folks, I've got another closet question, that makes me wonder if, at first, the "painted" dress was hidden in plain sight.

Testimony of George W. Allen (pages 434-435)
MOODY: Went where?
ALLEN: When I went out of the dining-room I saw a closet there, and I thought I would look into the closet, and then I looked into a clothes-press there was nigh the stove.
MOODY: In the dining-room?
ALLEN: No in the kitchen.
MOODY: In the kitchen?
ALLEN: Yes, sir.

This seems to be the closet next to the stove, which Bridget says is "where the wood and coal was kept." It seems to also be the same "cupboard" that Alice saw Lizzie pulling the dress from s she burned it. Why would Allen call this closet "nigh the stove" a "clothes-press" unless he saw something (perhaps the dress) inside it?

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:35 am

WOW, Fairhavenguy!! Great sleuthing!! Lizzie could have used that kitchen closet for "quick changes"...and, that old dress placed with the wood, etc. could have gotten even dirtier, thus throwing off anyone looking for stains or marks. BTW, that same closet could have hid axes, etc. Very interesting it is referred to as a "clothes closet," indeed.

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:40 am

WOW, Fairhavenguy!! Great sleuthing!! Lizzie could have used that kitchen closet for "quick changes"...and, that old dress placed with the wood, etc. could have gotten even dirtier, thus throwing off anyone looking for stains or marks. BTW, that same closet could have hid axes, etc. Very interesting it is referred to as a "clothes closet," indeed.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Tue May 18, 2004 7:10 pm

We had a "closet" in our old kitchen that we called
the phone booth. It was big enough for a chair and
the phone was right outside the door. Shelves with
food all around but a nice little private space. I wonder if older days it was the wood/coal closet,
adjacent to stove. I can't wait to get in that house
myself!

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Headed to Lizzie's !!!

Headed to Lizzie's !!!

Back from THE house !

Part 2...Me at Lizzie's