I admit to a certain level of curiosity regarding my fellow Bordeniacs. What fascinates you about this case? What other crimes interest you? And how does your family react to your interest?
I've been interested in the Borden case most of my life, partly because of the mystery, partly because it's such a fascinating example of the emotional intensity that can underlie a respectable facade. I also cherish a lifelong interest in 19th-century New England, so this case was bound to catch my attention.
Over the years I've read various books on the case, but I've never been able to research it thoroughly until now. The conditions were just right: I'm currently unemployed (and actively, even obsessively, seeking work), so I have some time, and this forum has provided me with stacks of original resources. The more I know about the case, the more fascinating it is.
How about you?
Lynn
"So What Brings You to Fall River?"
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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Wordweaver
- Posts: 262
- Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:28 am
- Real Name:
- Location: Silicon Valley
- Contact:
"So What Brings You to Fall River?"
There is science, logic, reason; there is thought verified by experience. And then there is California. --Edward Abbey
http://unnaturalhistory.blogspot.com
http://unnaturalhistory.blogspot.com
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Thanks for explaining your interest in the case and telling us a little bit about yourself. I wish everyone was able to introduce themselves in such a way, and on their own initiative.
(Have you tried Temp work? I've known people to get hired by the company who contracted their skills by buying out their contract- and I've known people who went to sign on as a Temp and been hired by the agency itself!
I don't know your level of expertise, but it's just a suggestion).
When our family at home was reduced to 4 - parents and Stefani and myself- because we were all interested in true crime, we would read the same book and talk it over at the dinner table. We had always been encouraged to look it up and to form our own opinions. We were able to refine the theory of the psychology of crime by debating motive of such monsters as Wayne Williams and Ted Bundy. We followed these cases seriously. I think I had been reading true crime on and off since I was 16- that's over 30 years!
There are 22 bookcases in my house, a few 6 feet high, all crammed with books of all kinds!
The 4 major groupings are WWII (mainly the Pacific Theatre), exotic cookery books, fiction and true crime.
We were as hooked on Lizzie as we were on Ted Bundy.
The more recent resurgent interest in Lizzie came about through an ad in "Mystery Magazine," where I found an ad for the The Lizzie Borden Quarterly. I can't recall exactly when it was I subscribed- it's probably around 1996- and Stefani was as fascinated as I that there was such a thing! That was exciting finding that resource and knowing Lizzie was still alive and well and we could get updated on her! I bought back issues and kept up my membership, until Stef took over the payments. We began to share the cost of all the materials and sources which we now had available to us through the advertising. So we bought the Trial and the Preliminary Hearing (twice- expensive!), and The Witness Statements and the Inquest. Then we joined the dark-rose message board as "cellar-dwellers" and met other Borden case afficianados online, once Stef gave me her old computer. That was the year 2000, I believe. There we met Harry and he and Stefani decided to type the primary documents so that they could be available to everyone so that we could start as equals. Before that time there were a certain few who had access to this stuff and who did not share. We thought it should be shared. So really, between Stef and Harry, we now have the means to all start equally, if people will take the time to download these documents and read them.
That was the whole point of the website, and this discussion Forum evolved after dark-rose server went down for a couple of months and Bordenites needed their message board fix!
That was at Arborwood, until they implemented message board memory limits, so Stef found this place which she could attach to her website, and run the whole thing herself- everything under one umbrella.
I didn't mean this to become an opus, but to just also add that Stefani does SO MUCH behind the scenes to make this all happen and to keep it happening- I don't think most people are aware. She has and is constantly reading books on computers and design and teaching herself everything she wants to know to keep evolving in this sphere of endeavor. She was invited to be a staff writer on the LBQ, becoming great friends with Mssr. Bertolet. She also has sponsered her students to put on the play Blood Relations, which I saw, and she has been invited twice to lecture in Fall River on Lizzie! That all takes a lot of preparation! Because of the popularity of the web-site, Stefani was also invited to appear in the most recent video on Lizzie, and I got to be included!
I must say, that we are ever thankful and joyful that we re-found Lizzie when we did, which was right after the death of our mother. Lizzie got me a computer and she helped me quit smoking and she has provided us with wonderful opportunities and wonderful friends - which we truly cherish!
(Have you tried Temp work? I've known people to get hired by the company who contracted their skills by buying out their contract- and I've known people who went to sign on as a Temp and been hired by the agency itself!
I don't know your level of expertise, but it's just a suggestion).
When our family at home was reduced to 4 - parents and Stefani and myself- because we were all interested in true crime, we would read the same book and talk it over at the dinner table. We had always been encouraged to look it up and to form our own opinions. We were able to refine the theory of the psychology of crime by debating motive of such monsters as Wayne Williams and Ted Bundy. We followed these cases seriously. I think I had been reading true crime on and off since I was 16- that's over 30 years!
There are 22 bookcases in my house, a few 6 feet high, all crammed with books of all kinds!
The 4 major groupings are WWII (mainly the Pacific Theatre), exotic cookery books, fiction and true crime.
We were as hooked on Lizzie as we were on Ted Bundy.
The more recent resurgent interest in Lizzie came about through an ad in "Mystery Magazine," where I found an ad for the The Lizzie Borden Quarterly. I can't recall exactly when it was I subscribed- it's probably around 1996- and Stefani was as fascinated as I that there was such a thing! That was exciting finding that resource and knowing Lizzie was still alive and well and we could get updated on her! I bought back issues and kept up my membership, until Stef took over the payments. We began to share the cost of all the materials and sources which we now had available to us through the advertising. So we bought the Trial and the Preliminary Hearing (twice- expensive!), and The Witness Statements and the Inquest. Then we joined the dark-rose message board as "cellar-dwellers" and met other Borden case afficianados online, once Stef gave me her old computer. That was the year 2000, I believe. There we met Harry and he and Stefani decided to type the primary documents so that they could be available to everyone so that we could start as equals. Before that time there were a certain few who had access to this stuff and who did not share. We thought it should be shared. So really, between Stef and Harry, we now have the means to all start equally, if people will take the time to download these documents and read them.
That was the whole point of the website, and this discussion Forum evolved after dark-rose server went down for a couple of months and Bordenites needed their message board fix!
That was at Arborwood, until they implemented message board memory limits, so Stef found this place which she could attach to her website, and run the whole thing herself- everything under one umbrella.
I didn't mean this to become an opus, but to just also add that Stefani does SO MUCH behind the scenes to make this all happen and to keep it happening- I don't think most people are aware. She has and is constantly reading books on computers and design and teaching herself everything she wants to know to keep evolving in this sphere of endeavor. She was invited to be a staff writer on the LBQ, becoming great friends with Mssr. Bertolet. She also has sponsered her students to put on the play Blood Relations, which I saw, and she has been invited twice to lecture in Fall River on Lizzie! That all takes a lot of preparation! Because of the popularity of the web-site, Stefani was also invited to appear in the most recent video on Lizzie, and I got to be included!
I must say, that we are ever thankful and joyful that we re-found Lizzie when we did, which was right after the death of our mother. Lizzie got me a computer and she helped me quit smoking and she has provided us with wonderful opportunities and wonderful friends - which we truly cherish!
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Allen
- Posts: 3409
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Me
My interest in Lizzie came about as a personal interest. I remember seeing the movie with Elizabeth Montgomery when I was kind of young, and the character she played both fascinated and scared the pants off me. I couldn't really even look at the show "Bewitched" the same again for awhile after watching the movie. I think what scared me so much about it was someone told me this was a "real story", it wasn't made up like the scary movies I usually watched. Then when I was in my teens I found a book that had the real story of the murders in it, and pictures of the crime scene. I was still fascinated, but it no longer scared me. I have been pretty much hooked ever since. I've picked up as many of the books and source materials over the years as I could, and I just keep rereading them time and time again 
. I actually found the forum a few years ago when I first got my computer, and of course started trying to hunt down all things Borden in cyber space. I read many of the threads.One of the first ones I remember reading talked about Andrew unlocking the barn door, and the fact that a reason was never given for him to have unlocked it. My interest grew so much in the case, that I just had to see the house for myself! So when my husband and I were trying to decide where to go for or honeymoon, I suggested we go there. It took a little convincing on my part, but we finally decided to go. I can not describe my feelings about actually staying in the house. It was every Bordenmaniac's dream come true. I took all kinds of pictures and taped as much of the house as I could with my video camera, until it died and the battery refused to stay charged. We were all over Fall River, and most of New Bedford also. We both enjoyed the trip so much that it took no convincing to get my husband to go back the second time. I kept reading some of the threads on the forums and the documents available on the site, but never got around to actually applying to join until a few months ago. I was so excited. when I finally became a member. Now I am finally able to talk to people about the case who share the same level of interest as I do, and don't just sit and roll their eyes when I talk. Or just say something off the wall about the case. I'm so glad to be a member here!
. I actually found the forum a few years ago when I first got my computer, and of course started trying to hunt down all things Borden in cyber space. I read many of the threads.One of the first ones I remember reading talked about Andrew unlocking the barn door, and the fact that a reason was never given for him to have unlocked it. My interest grew so much in the case, that I just had to see the house for myself! So when my husband and I were trying to decide where to go for or honeymoon, I suggested we go there. It took a little convincing on my part, but we finally decided to go. I can not describe my feelings about actually staying in the house. It was every Bordenmaniac's dream come true. I took all kinds of pictures and taped as much of the house as I could with my video camera, until it died and the battery refused to stay charged. We were all over Fall River, and most of New Bedford also. We both enjoyed the trip so much that it took no convincing to get my husband to go back the second time. I kept reading some of the threads on the forums and the documents available on the site, but never got around to actually applying to join until a few months ago. I was so excited. when I finally became a member. Now I am finally able to talk to people about the case who share the same level of interest as I do, and don't just sit and roll their eyes when I talk. Or just say something off the wall about the case. I'm so glad to be a member here!"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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FairhavenGuy
- Posts: 1136
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:39 am
- Real Name: Christopher J. Richard
- Location: Fairhaven, MA
- Contact:
I've always been a fan of fictional mysteries and true crime stories. I also love history. The Borden case, like Jack the Ripper, is historical and unsolved. Plus it took place about 15 miles from where I've lived my whole life. (In fact, for a very brief period I lived quite close to the "farm" in Swansea.)
In the 1980-81, I worked in Fall River, so I got more of a feeling for the community. Then I got a job at the weekly newspaper across the river in Somerset. There, I ended up writing a couple of short pieces about Lizzie for the Spectator's "Gateway to Cape Cod" tourist publication. (Although my name isn't credited, the titles of the pieces I wrote ARE LISTED IN REBELLO!!!) At the time I was researching one of the pieces, I visited the Fall River Historical Society, saw the collection, and met Florence Brigham, who was well versed in Fall River and Lizzie history.
Nine years ago this month I became the Director of Tourism for my hometown. While visiting local tourist attractions with the tourism directors of New Bedford and Fall River the three of us stopped at the B&B and got a quick tour. Being in the actual house and walking through the rooms that I had only seen as black and white diagrams in books was quite an experience.
I came to this forum (actually back toward the end of the Arborwood days) looking for information about Emma's stay in Fairhaven, since I mention that in one of the historical walking tours I guide. (Fairhaven Center Tour, Saturday, April 30, 2005 at 2:00 p.m.) Stef's fabulous website was a treasure to find. The "core group" here, led by Kat and Harry, with outstanding support by Susan, Audrey, Tracy, Diana, Sherry, Nancie, Bob, Eugene, the Dougs, and others impressed me with their knowledge and their willingness to share theories and information. They're all just slightly cracked, too. So I fit in pretty well, I guess. And then, there was Raymond. . . who was left looking for moss growing on the north side of trees when we switched from Arborwood. I think he's still out behind his house someplace. . .
So far, I've only met Diana, but Tracy passed through Fairhaven last summer and the Kooreys and Harry got as close as New Bedford (five minutes away) in October. I hope I'll see some folks this year.
So this is something like a family, here, but you can just log off when you've had enough of them.
So far I haven't.
In the 1980-81, I worked in Fall River, so I got more of a feeling for the community. Then I got a job at the weekly newspaper across the river in Somerset. There, I ended up writing a couple of short pieces about Lizzie for the Spectator's "Gateway to Cape Cod" tourist publication. (Although my name isn't credited, the titles of the pieces I wrote ARE LISTED IN REBELLO!!!) At the time I was researching one of the pieces, I visited the Fall River Historical Society, saw the collection, and met Florence Brigham, who was well versed in Fall River and Lizzie history.
Nine years ago this month I became the Director of Tourism for my hometown. While visiting local tourist attractions with the tourism directors of New Bedford and Fall River the three of us stopped at the B&B and got a quick tour. Being in the actual house and walking through the rooms that I had only seen as black and white diagrams in books was quite an experience.
I came to this forum (actually back toward the end of the Arborwood days) looking for information about Emma's stay in Fairhaven, since I mention that in one of the historical walking tours I guide. (Fairhaven Center Tour, Saturday, April 30, 2005 at 2:00 p.m.) Stef's fabulous website was a treasure to find. The "core group" here, led by Kat and Harry, with outstanding support by Susan, Audrey, Tracy, Diana, Sherry, Nancie, Bob, Eugene, the Dougs, and others impressed me with their knowledge and their willingness to share theories and information. They're all just slightly cracked, too. So I fit in pretty well, I guess. And then, there was Raymond. . . who was left looking for moss growing on the north side of trees when we switched from Arborwood. I think he's still out behind his house someplace. . .
So far, I've only met Diana, but Tracy passed through Fairhaven last summer and the Kooreys and Harry got as close as New Bedford (five minutes away) in October. I hope I'll see some folks this year.
So this is something like a family, here, but you can just log off when you've had enough of them.
So far I haven't.
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:14 am
- Real Name:
I briefly studied the case while attending college in Massachusetts and was interested enough to begin to do some research on my own.
It has been a hobby ever since.
Finding this forum and the community that exists here has made it a joy as well...
My husband read the books and was interested briefly. My kids have no interest in Lizzie-- other than the jokes about not making me mad or I will get a hatchet..... (it got old quickly)
I am planning a trip to FR this summer with a dear friend of mine. I can not wait to go.
We will take FR by storm and (hopefully) bewitch, bother and bewilder the ever debonair Fairhaven and Mark....
Hopefully the agent who sells us our tickets doesn't route us to River Falls!
It has been a hobby ever since.
Finding this forum and the community that exists here has made it a joy as well...
My husband read the books and was interested briefly. My kids have no interest in Lizzie-- other than the jokes about not making me mad or I will get a hatchet..... (it got old quickly)
I am planning a trip to FR this summer with a dear friend of mine. I can not wait to go.
We will take FR by storm and (hopefully) bewitch, bother and bewilder the ever debonair Fairhaven and Mark....
Hopefully the agent who sells us our tickets doesn't route us to River Falls!
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doug65oh
- Posts: 1583
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:26 am
- Real Name:
Where did it begin? I suppose my interest in (or knowledge of) the case started with that nasty little piece of doggerel – not the best place for an informed beginning, granted, but you remember the smallest things at seven years old. It mystified me how anyone could possibly find the passion (or enough reason) to swing an axe that many times. For quite a while, I thought Lizzie had done it – why would that poem be writ if she hadn’t?
Fast-forward say…three years or so to one evening in 1975 – I’ve forgotten just how it came about, but I watched “The Legend of Lizzie Borden” on television. Among other things that was the first time I realized that the drotted little doggerel had possibly been a children's song, tune and all. Needless to say, I was utterly fascinated – the light came on: “Aha! So this is what that little ditty was all about!” Even years later though it frustrates me, because in reading testimonies (Lizzie’s Inquest testimony, for instance) the voice and inflection I end up “hearing” is not Lizzie but Elizabeth, not Borden but Montgomery. On the other hand the “voice imprint” intrusion can be at least amusing, when Katherine Helmond’s “Emma Borden” somehow mixes with her “Jessica Tate” of a few years later – at which point I take a break and read something else!
I came back to the case in 2001 or 2002 after I found what (for me, anyway) is always the best starting-point in looking at any murder case new or old – Harry’s wonderful transcription of proceedings in The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie Andrew Borden as taken down on-the-spot by the court stenographer Frank Burt. So the journey began, and thus does it continue.
I suppose you could say in a mystical moment that we are each blessed with a curse and cursed with a blessing – the curse being that we are each of us is driven by an insatiable need to know a little something more about the doings on Second Street in the first days of August, 1892.
The blessing of it comes in the knowing that we are not alone in our quest.
I’ll shut up here in a second but I have to say this – I (and a good many of us probably) remember the day Chris arrived at the Arborwood digs. Don’t remember particularly the day I showed up tho… isn’t that odd…
You’re probably right too Chris, about Ray… That’s all I have to say about that!
Fast-forward say…three years or so to one evening in 1975 – I’ve forgotten just how it came about, but I watched “The Legend of Lizzie Borden” on television. Among other things that was the first time I realized that the drotted little doggerel had possibly been a children's song, tune and all. Needless to say, I was utterly fascinated – the light came on: “Aha! So this is what that little ditty was all about!” Even years later though it frustrates me, because in reading testimonies (Lizzie’s Inquest testimony, for instance) the voice and inflection I end up “hearing” is not Lizzie but Elizabeth, not Borden but Montgomery. On the other hand the “voice imprint” intrusion can be at least amusing, when Katherine Helmond’s “Emma Borden” somehow mixes with her “Jessica Tate” of a few years later – at which point I take a break and read something else!
I came back to the case in 2001 or 2002 after I found what (for me, anyway) is always the best starting-point in looking at any murder case new or old – Harry’s wonderful transcription of proceedings in The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie Andrew Borden as taken down on-the-spot by the court stenographer Frank Burt. So the journey began, and thus does it continue.
I suppose you could say in a mystical moment that we are each blessed with a curse and cursed with a blessing – the curse being that we are each of us is driven by an insatiable need to know a little something more about the doings on Second Street in the first days of August, 1892.
The blessing of it comes in the knowing that we are not alone in our quest.
I’ll shut up here in a second but I have to say this – I (and a good many of us probably) remember the day Chris arrived at the Arborwood digs. Don’t remember particularly the day I showed up tho… isn’t that odd…
You’re probably right too Chris, about Ray… That’s all I have to say about that!
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theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
I became interested when Legend first aired. Although I had done some reading on this now passion of mine, I didn't get entirely serious about it until a few years ago when I was invited to a wedding in New Bedford.
A gal I had been teaching with out here in Utah, had moved back to E. Freetown, and was going to be married at the Seamen's Bethel in New Bedford in October of 2002. Since I had never been to New England, I thought that would be a beautiful time of year to visit...and IT WAS !!
In making the flight reservations for my mother and I, I was told it would probably be easier to arrive via Providence vs. Boston. As I was looking at a map of the area, I thought...Fall River ?...isn't that the town where the Lizzie Borden thing happened ? I asked one of my friends and she said yes...and added that she thought that the house had been turned into a B&B. Well, I found the website for the B&B...called to see if we could get a room. We stayed in the Lizzie & Emma suite...and the rest is history...or maybe I should say in this case, herstory.
Before we headed to Massachusetts, I thought I should find out some stuff about Lizzie, so I found the old Arborwood forum...and lurked about...learning. I also took a peek at Stef's website and began my first attempt at reading Ms. Lincoln. When we arrived at the B&B, I was AMAZED. I loved the house and everything about it. Then when we went to Oak Grove...I was also amazed at how peaceful it seemed at the Borden family plot. I was hooked. We saw Maplecroft and I thought...wow...I can see why Lizzie loved this place. I purchased some of almost everything they had at the B&B. I even got my Rebello there, which he had come to the house to sign as we did the tour with Eleanor the night we stayed. He is a marvelous man.
As most of you already know, my second stay was when I took my niece on a trip, as her 'graduating from high school' present. By this time, I had some more knowledge about the case...thanks to my beloved friends on the forum ! My niece and I even got to spend some 'touring' time with Mr. Rebello. IT WAS AMAZING ! I was very sad though, that we weren't able to get with Chris and see more of Fairhaven.
The trip plans for this summer DO include meeting up with Chris and Mark both. We also hope to be able to get with Mr. Rebello and Mr. Martins as well. I also hope the renovations on the B&B are done in time !
Anyway...I must thank all my dear friends here for helping me with and teaching me about...all things Lizzie. THANK YOU !
A gal I had been teaching with out here in Utah, had moved back to E. Freetown, and was going to be married at the Seamen's Bethel in New Bedford in October of 2002. Since I had never been to New England, I thought that would be a beautiful time of year to visit...and IT WAS !!
In making the flight reservations for my mother and I, I was told it would probably be easier to arrive via Providence vs. Boston. As I was looking at a map of the area, I thought...Fall River ?...isn't that the town where the Lizzie Borden thing happened ? I asked one of my friends and she said yes...and added that she thought that the house had been turned into a B&B. Well, I found the website for the B&B...called to see if we could get a room. We stayed in the Lizzie & Emma suite...and the rest is history...or maybe I should say in this case, herstory.
Before we headed to Massachusetts, I thought I should find out some stuff about Lizzie, so I found the old Arborwood forum...and lurked about...learning. I also took a peek at Stef's website and began my first attempt at reading Ms. Lincoln. When we arrived at the B&B, I was AMAZED. I loved the house and everything about it. Then when we went to Oak Grove...I was also amazed at how peaceful it seemed at the Borden family plot. I was hooked. We saw Maplecroft and I thought...wow...I can see why Lizzie loved this place. I purchased some of almost everything they had at the B&B. I even got my Rebello there, which he had come to the house to sign as we did the tour with Eleanor the night we stayed. He is a marvelous man.
As most of you already know, my second stay was when I took my niece on a trip, as her 'graduating from high school' present. By this time, I had some more knowledge about the case...thanks to my beloved friends on the forum ! My niece and I even got to spend some 'touring' time with Mr. Rebello. IT WAS AMAZING ! I was very sad though, that we weren't able to get with Chris and see more of Fairhaven.
The trip plans for this summer DO include meeting up with Chris and Mark both. We also hope to be able to get with Mr. Rebello and Mr. Martins as well. I also hope the renovations on the B&B are done in time !
Anyway...I must thank all my dear friends here for helping me with and teaching me about...all things Lizzie. THANK YOU !
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Nancie
- Posts: 604
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:15 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: New Jersey
Lynn asks:"how does your family react to your interest in Lizzie Borden?" That reminded me when
I planned our vacation in 1992, I told friends and family we were going to "a mystery writers convention near Boston, then on to Williamsburg,Va
for a week.." At the time I was embarrased to say
I was going to the 100th anniversary of an ax murderess. But when we got there and I met many
thousands of devoted Lizzie fans, serious scholars of the case, I never again felt alone or embarrased of my fascination. And this forum keeps me up to date on everything Lizzie, we all share a mystery
gene I guess! Thanks for topic Lynn (wordweaver) and great responses so far from everybody.
I planned our vacation in 1992, I told friends and family we were going to "a mystery writers convention near Boston, then on to Williamsburg,Va
for a week.." At the time I was embarrased to say
I was going to the 100th anniversary of an ax murderess. But when we got there and I met many
thousands of devoted Lizzie fans, serious scholars of the case, I never again felt alone or embarrased of my fascination. And this forum keeps me up to date on everything Lizzie, we all share a mystery
gene I guess! Thanks for topic Lynn (wordweaver) and great responses so far from everybody.
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Pippi
- Posts: 115
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:56 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: WA, USA raised in CT
- Contact:
Growing up in New England it felt like Lizzie was always a part of my life. The story was fresh in my families memory for some reason and I somehow ran into the story as a very young girl. I didn't really start putting it all together until I saw pictures and my first documentary on tv that is when serious interest peaked. It seemed strange to me that such a story could be, seem so obvious, and yet I felt so much that Lizzie was "off" but not THAT off...
Strange curiosity took over, a curiosity for Lizzie, did she do it, if so why? What was she feeling? I got stuck in wanting to know the emotions of a Victorian woman while researching the topic of oppression and women in the Victorian Era. How did she feel/live with the way FR folk talked of her? She was ostracized by the community, and I wanted to know how she how it may have effected her life and emotions and I can relate and to an extent felt like reaching out and extending my sympathy for the way she was treated.
My family, they think I'm nuts and it's macabre to have an interest in such a case/person. My SO listens, nods and adds in the occasional "uh huh" and I'm not sure if he would stay at the B&B with me or not, if he did it would not be of his own choosing it would be only to humor me and go SOMEWHERE haha.
Strange curiosity took over, a curiosity for Lizzie, did she do it, if so why? What was she feeling? I got stuck in wanting to know the emotions of a Victorian woman while researching the topic of oppression and women in the Victorian Era. How did she feel/live with the way FR folk talked of her? She was ostracized by the community, and I wanted to know how she how it may have effected her life and emotions and I can relate and to an extent felt like reaching out and extending my sympathy for the way she was treated.
My family, they think I'm nuts and it's macabre to have an interest in such a case/person. My SO listens, nods and adds in the occasional "uh huh" and I'm not sure if he would stay at the B&B with me or not, if he did it would not be of his own choosing it would be only to humor me and go SOMEWHERE haha.
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Susan
- Posts: 2361
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:26 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: California
I got started with Lizzie the night that the Legend of Lizzie Borden movie aired. It was all my girlfriends and I could talk about that week, waiting for it to show. When I saw that it was based on an actual story, I had to know more! So, a couple of days later I went to the library and checked out every Lizzie book I could find, I was amazed at how much Elizabeth Montgomery looked like the first real picture of Lizzie that I saw!
Every book that I finished reading was quickly snatched up by my twin brother to be read yet again. I then had a built-in Bordenite to discuss the case with, it was wonderful as no one else I knew at the time really cared about the real story. I continued my interest in Lizzie off and on over the years, I even did my term paper on Lizzie! Time went on and I finally found the LABVM&L site and Forum, wow, I was thrilled, for the first time to be able to discuss everything Lizzie with like-minded people!!! And, I've been here ever since with our family of Bordenites.
Every book that I finished reading was quickly snatched up by my twin brother to be read yet again. I then had a built-in Bordenite to discuss the case with, it was wonderful as no one else I knew at the time really cared about the real story. I continued my interest in Lizzie off and on over the years, I even did my term paper on Lizzie! Time went on and I finally found the LABVM&L site and Forum, wow, I was thrilled, for the first time to be able to discuss everything Lizzie with like-minded people!!! And, I've been here ever since with our family of Bordenites.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
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Fargo
- Posts: 976
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:43 pm
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Hi I am new here and this is my first message. I first read about the Borden case in a book of short stories when I was about 12 years old. I watched the Biography on it in 1994, that made me interested in it again. Then I read Goodbye Lizzie Borden by Robert Sullivan.
I was facinated enough by the case that I decided that if I was to take a vacation that Fall River was one of the main places that I wanted to visit. Last year I got my chance. I wanted to visit my family in Nova Scotia as I had never been there before and that is where my family is from. I looked at my Atlas trying to figure out how far Fall River was from Nova scotia, I figured I could drive there in a day or two.
I flew to Nova Scotia, visited relatives that I had never met before, then drove to Fall River while I was back there. During the two nights that it took me to drive there I hardly had any sleep at all, the excitement kept me awake. I stayed a night at the B and B, it was like someone had raised the Titanic, rebuilt it and then you came aboard. I hope to make it an annual event.
I was facinated enough by the case that I decided that if I was to take a vacation that Fall River was one of the main places that I wanted to visit. Last year I got my chance. I wanted to visit my family in Nova Scotia as I had never been there before and that is where my family is from. I looked at my Atlas trying to figure out how far Fall River was from Nova scotia, I figured I could drive there in a day or two.
I flew to Nova Scotia, visited relatives that I had never met before, then drove to Fall River while I was back there. During the two nights that it took me to drive there I hardly had any sleep at all, the excitement kept me awake. I stayed a night at the B and B, it was like someone had raised the Titanic, rebuilt it and then you came aboard. I hope to make it an annual event.
What is a Picture, but the capture of a moment in time.
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theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
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- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
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Fargo
- Posts: 976
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:43 pm
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One of the first thing I recognized was the brick building with the two brick chimmneys that was there in Lizzie's time. I became lost many times even with my map, because of all the one way streets. I got a map and directions on how to find the house from a gas station. I went down a big hill and turned left like I was told. I came to the street and thought this can't be it .
The next street over looked more like it, so I tried it, it wasn't it. I tried to get back there but with the one way streets I was lost for a while. At one point I pulled over just before an intersection. I looked at the street signs and my map and tried to figure out where I was. I was there about 5 minutes then I pulled ahead to the intersection. On my left I saw the central church, I recognized it from a picture, there it was as it had been in 1892. I felt like I was in some kind of wonderland.
After awhile I was back on the same big hill again where I had started. I pulled over and was looking at my map. A pedestrian noticed me and asked if I needed help. I said "I'm trying to find the Lizzie Borden House" he gave me the same directions I had before he said "you can't miss it, its right across from the bus stop".
I followed the directions and was looking for a bus stop, not a bus station. When I seen the bus station I knew what he had meant. Everything looked so different from what I thought it would. I kept looking and sure enough there it was, I recognized it instantly because I have seen pictures of it so many times. I drove around the corner then back again, I parked at the bus station, took a picture of the house and sat there looking at the house for awhile.
The tours were over for the day, the B and B sign was out on the street though. I thought about it and decided to go there the next day. I got into a cab that was just up the street and asked the driver about any hotels in the area. The driver gave me directions to the super 8 in somerset, thats were I stayed that night. I had the phone hooked up so I could call my mom, the hotel that I stayed in the previous night had no phone. I told my mom where I was, she asked "did you see the house, is it open?" There were many things that I wanted to see while I was on vacation that were closed, so she was worried that I might have went there for nothing. I said 'Yes it's open, I am going to see it tomorrow.
The next day I went to take the tour, there was one going on when I got there so I would have to wait. I asked about a room, there was nothing availiable on the second floor so I decided to take Bridget's room. The receptionist went to refund my money that I had already paid for the tour. I had waited so long and come so far that I didn't want to wait any longer. I wanted to take the next tour and stay the night, but the receptionist talked me out of it saying that they give a tour during the overnight stay.
So I went on my way. I went looking for Maplecroft. I knew from my map that French street was coming up. I seen the sign and turned right on to French street. It had been a while since I had seen a picture of Maplecroft but I thought that I should be able to recognize it. I drove slowly and looked back and fourth from left to right. A little way in I seen a house on my right [that could be it right there, I said to myself] I looked at the front step and seen the word Maplecroft and knew that that was it. I also seen a private property sign in the window, if it hadn't been for that I would have gotten out of the car to take a picture. I figured that the owner was probably being asked by tourists to see the house, thus the sign. I drove by again and stopped the car and took pictures from the car.
Next I visited Oak Grove Cemetary, I followed the arrows like the receptionist at the B and B said to find the Borden Plot. It looked like the grass by Lizzie's grave was worn down more than the grass by the other graves.
Next I took a tour of the Fall River Historical Society. After touring many rooms the guide took me into the Borden room, she asked "Lizzie Borden, how much do you want to here?" I said "that's one of the main reasons that I am here."
After the tour I still had a while before check in time at the B and B so I decided to drive around the hill. At one part I started from the bottom by a commercial area and began climbing. There was nothing but trees and old style houses on both sides of me. After a while I was thinking "when is this thing going to end? No wonder they call it the hill."
That night at the B and B myself and other guests were watching the movie the Legend of Lizzie Borden. I had seen it before years earlier. Someone commented at how the movie set they had with the staircase and front part of the house loosely resembled the real house. I started thinking about this. I was looking at the set on the movie and looking at the real staircase from my seat in the parlor. I forgot where I was for a moment. I was thinking that, yes that looks something like the real staircase and the front part of the real house. Wait a minute I thought. I started looking around, I am looking at the real staircase and I am in the real house.
A little while later I sat by myself in the sitting room reading some of Len Rebello's book. I looked around and got in touch with history. I looked at the doorways thinking that Lizzie Borden actually walked through that doorway and stood there, she stood in this room, she may have sat exactly where I am sitting right now and looked around the room as I am doing, looking at the same things. You can't get up close and personal with history like that from a tour, it's different if you stay there.
The next mourning at breakfast I was asked "how did you sleep?" I said "Ok, the thing that I was worried about was that if I couldn't get to sleep then I wouldn't be able tell anyone that I slept here, but I got to sleep.
After breakfast and a bit of shopping at the gift shop, I headed back to Nova Scotia. I drove straight through, it took 13 hours. When I got there I called my mom because it was still early there with the time difference. My mom asked "did you get to see the house? I said "yes, I stayed there".
The next street over looked more like it, so I tried it, it wasn't it. I tried to get back there but with the one way streets I was lost for a while. At one point I pulled over just before an intersection. I looked at the street signs and my map and tried to figure out where I was. I was there about 5 minutes then I pulled ahead to the intersection. On my left I saw the central church, I recognized it from a picture, there it was as it had been in 1892. I felt like I was in some kind of wonderland.
After awhile I was back on the same big hill again where I had started. I pulled over and was looking at my map. A pedestrian noticed me and asked if I needed help. I said "I'm trying to find the Lizzie Borden House" he gave me the same directions I had before he said "you can't miss it, its right across from the bus stop".
I followed the directions and was looking for a bus stop, not a bus station. When I seen the bus station I knew what he had meant. Everything looked so different from what I thought it would. I kept looking and sure enough there it was, I recognized it instantly because I have seen pictures of it so many times. I drove around the corner then back again, I parked at the bus station, took a picture of the house and sat there looking at the house for awhile.
The tours were over for the day, the B and B sign was out on the street though. I thought about it and decided to go there the next day. I got into a cab that was just up the street and asked the driver about any hotels in the area. The driver gave me directions to the super 8 in somerset, thats were I stayed that night. I had the phone hooked up so I could call my mom, the hotel that I stayed in the previous night had no phone. I told my mom where I was, she asked "did you see the house, is it open?" There were many things that I wanted to see while I was on vacation that were closed, so she was worried that I might have went there for nothing. I said 'Yes it's open, I am going to see it tomorrow.
The next day I went to take the tour, there was one going on when I got there so I would have to wait. I asked about a room, there was nothing availiable on the second floor so I decided to take Bridget's room. The receptionist went to refund my money that I had already paid for the tour. I had waited so long and come so far that I didn't want to wait any longer. I wanted to take the next tour and stay the night, but the receptionist talked me out of it saying that they give a tour during the overnight stay.
So I went on my way. I went looking for Maplecroft. I knew from my map that French street was coming up. I seen the sign and turned right on to French street. It had been a while since I had seen a picture of Maplecroft but I thought that I should be able to recognize it. I drove slowly and looked back and fourth from left to right. A little way in I seen a house on my right [that could be it right there, I said to myself] I looked at the front step and seen the word Maplecroft and knew that that was it. I also seen a private property sign in the window, if it hadn't been for that I would have gotten out of the car to take a picture. I figured that the owner was probably being asked by tourists to see the house, thus the sign. I drove by again and stopped the car and took pictures from the car.
Next I visited Oak Grove Cemetary, I followed the arrows like the receptionist at the B and B said to find the Borden Plot. It looked like the grass by Lizzie's grave was worn down more than the grass by the other graves.
Next I took a tour of the Fall River Historical Society. After touring many rooms the guide took me into the Borden room, she asked "Lizzie Borden, how much do you want to here?" I said "that's one of the main reasons that I am here."
After the tour I still had a while before check in time at the B and B so I decided to drive around the hill. At one part I started from the bottom by a commercial area and began climbing. There was nothing but trees and old style houses on both sides of me. After a while I was thinking "when is this thing going to end? No wonder they call it the hill."
That night at the B and B myself and other guests were watching the movie the Legend of Lizzie Borden. I had seen it before years earlier. Someone commented at how the movie set they had with the staircase and front part of the house loosely resembled the real house. I started thinking about this. I was looking at the set on the movie and looking at the real staircase from my seat in the parlor. I forgot where I was for a moment. I was thinking that, yes that looks something like the real staircase and the front part of the real house. Wait a minute I thought. I started looking around, I am looking at the real staircase and I am in the real house.
A little while later I sat by myself in the sitting room reading some of Len Rebello's book. I looked around and got in touch with history. I looked at the doorways thinking that Lizzie Borden actually walked through that doorway and stood there, she stood in this room, she may have sat exactly where I am sitting right now and looked around the room as I am doing, looking at the same things. You can't get up close and personal with history like that from a tour, it's different if you stay there.
The next mourning at breakfast I was asked "how did you sleep?" I said "Ok, the thing that I was worried about was that if I couldn't get to sleep then I wouldn't be able tell anyone that I slept here, but I got to sleep.
After breakfast and a bit of shopping at the gift shop, I headed back to Nova Scotia. I drove straight through, it took 13 hours. When I got there I called my mom because it was still early there with the time difference. My mom asked "did you get to see the house? I said "yes, I stayed there".
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
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- Location: Central Florida
Wow that's a great story!
Thank you!
I think I missed having *alone time* in the Borden house.
I didn't get to go that deeply into the mood of history because I was surrounded by so much energy.
You were brave to drive that far, get lost, find your way with patience and get to stay in the house and drive back 13 hours alone!
You must be young!
Thank you!
I think I missed having *alone time* in the Borden house.
I didn't get to go that deeply into the mood of history because I was surrounded by so much energy.
You were brave to drive that far, get lost, find your way with patience and get to stay in the house and drive back 13 hours alone!
You must be young!
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Liz Crouthers
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- Location: Cape Girardeau, Missouri
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i used to Love Lizzie in Kindergarden, when they would sing that God awful rhyme I would get into fights with kids saying she was guilty and I disagreed so I had to beat somebody up. I loved Lizzie because It creeped my mom out andI loved the fact that somebody out there has a sib that protects them like Emma did to Lizzie. When the book i'm writing is finished I plan to use the royalty money for a plane ticket to Fall River since the drive will be 19 hrs and 21 minutes
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theebmonique
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- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
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Liz Crouthers
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- Location: Cape Girardeau, Missouri
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Liz Crouthers
- Posts: 513
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:43 am
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- Location: Cape Girardeau, Missouri
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Tina-Kate
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:08 pm
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- Location: South East Canada
My dad is a true crime fanatic, & he introduced me to the Lizzie story (along with others). I 1st got hooked with the 1975 movie. In the 80s, my dad owned a bookstore & gave me the Spiering book. I read that several times & then AR Brown came out. When I 1st got internet in the spring of 2000, one of my 1st searches was "Lizzie Borden" & I found the Darkrose forum (whoever thought such a thing existed). I became hooked & discovered there was a LOT I did not really know. In August of that year, I decided spontaneously to hop a bus for Fall River, MA...quite a ride from Toronto! It was an adventure. I was only in F/R several hours, on no sleep & little or no food. The whole thing was surreal. When I got back, I bought every book I could find--Rebello, Kents 40 Whacks, Sourcebook, Williams' Casebook, Lincoln... What a godsend when Stef, Kat, Harry, et al came out with the source documents & lizzieandrewborden.com. I ended up with Lizzie as topic for fiction & non-fiction in my writing -- & she helped revive my cartooning hobby. Now I contribute to *The Hatchet*. & met my 1st "other Bordenite" this past year & have got to know so many wonderful people thru this board. If Lizzie even 1/2 imaged all of this...
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Tina-Kate
- Posts: 1467
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:08 pm
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- Location: South East Canada
I get "kicked-off" the Forum every several months & it takes fanagling with a couple of computers to get back on. I have been busy still failing at "normal people" jobs & writing my book. The book is going VERY well, tho.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Fargo
- Posts: 976
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:43 pm
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Kat I just read your article in the Hatchet about the trip to Fall River you took in Oct of 2004. I am wondering if we overlaped. I arrived there on Oct 26th 2004. I don't recall the exact time but it was around 11:30 or 12:30 on Oct 27th when I went to second street for the tour but reserved a room for the night instead. The receptionist (who I guess from reading the posts of others on this Forum was Dee) told me her name but I didn't quite get it as I am a bit hard of hearing, I knew it began with a D I thought it was Deb. The Receptionist said "there are some people on a tour right now". While I was talking to her a girl came from the house into the Giftshop she said "they want to see the Basement, what should I tell them? The Receptionist replied "show it to them". I am wondering of course if you and the others might have been the ones that were on tour in the House while I was in the Giftshop.
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Kat
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Wednesday I think we finished up in the gift shop about a qurter of 12?
There was only Doug and Marilou Parkhurst waiting there- Forum Members, as well. We yakked about 10 more minutes and the next tour started late.
Were you there?
That's wierd! Did you tour then, or did you stay at the house, instead?
There was only Doug and Marilou Parkhurst waiting there- Forum Members, as well. We yakked about 10 more minutes and the next tour started late.
Were you there?
That's wierd! Did you tour then, or did you stay at the house, instead?
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Fargo
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I remember I left the Hotel before 11:00 am that mourning on the 27th. I knew the tours didn't start untill 11:00 am so I decided to go to Oak Grove. I got lost a few times. I had trouble finding the entrance, it took awhile. I found out later that the entrance that I found was not the main entrance. I seen a picture of what the entrance looked like in 1892, so I figured that either they had changed it or I was at the wrong entrance. I looked around a bit but couldn't find a cemetary map. By this time it was after 11:00 am so I decided to go to second street to take the tour and to come back to oak grove later. I parked by the parking meter just up from the house and walked to the giftshop. Dee asked me if I was there for the tour, I said yes. Dee said that there was a tour going on now and that it should be over in about 20 minutes. We got to talking about the case. Then the tour guide came in and asked about the basement. After the guide left I asked about staying there and reserved bridget's room. I didn't take the next tour (although I wanted to) because a tour was included with the overnight stay. I asked Dee about oak grove and Dee told me that I had been at the other entrance, not the main entrance. Dee told me about the arrows painted on the road as well. I asked Dee if the entrance looked the same as it did in 1892, Dee said "yes you will notice it when you get there" Dee and the tour guide were the only ones that I met there in the giftshop that mourning.
I drove around for awhile, touring the city before going to find Maplecroft. I drove on the marine heritage drive I think it was called. After finding Maplecroft I went to the FRHS I was met by Michael Martins at the door, I recognized him from "a woman accused". I asked him if they gave tours. Michael said that the next tour was at 1:00 pm but that there was a group of school students that were there to take the 1:00 pm tour and he thought that I might not prefer to take it with them. Michael said that there would be another tour at 2:00 pm and that I might like to take that tour. I asked him "what time is it now?" he said "a quarter of 1:00. I said that I would be back for the 2:00 pm tour.
I decided to try oak grove again before the FRHS tour. It took awhile to find the main entrance. I drove around about 3/4 of the cemetary, following roads in, meeting the wall, following roads out, then in again, meeting the wall again. I did this several times before I found the main entrance. I followed the arrows. When I got to the plot there was a car parked there. I thought that the people in the car had just arrived there as I had. Then I noticed another vehicle in front of the car. Then I noticed the back right door of one of the vehicles (I can't remember which vehicle it was now) close as the last person had just gotten in. The vehicle in front took off and the car followed it. I got out and visited the borden family plot.
After that I still had awhile before the 2:00 pm tour at the FRHS so I drove around the hill for awhile. I arrived at the FRHS just before 2:00 pm and took the tour. After the tour I had awhile before check in time at the B and B so I drove around touring somemore.
After entering the house Dee showed us to our rooms. The guests on the second floor were shown to their rooms first. We were all following Dee around from room to room in a crowd as Dee was showing us to them. We walked through Lizzie's room into Andrew and Abby's room then back into Lizzie's room again. After I walked through the door way I looked back and said "I guess that must be the door that was nailed shut". Dee said "what?" in the kind of voice that made me realize that I might ruin it for everyone if I gave everything away. Later on, I seen the key on the mantlepiece in the sitting room and I knew why it was there, I thought about what I had said about the door earlier and knew that it was better to say nothing about it. That night Lee Ann had lost her voice so Dee gave the tour. By the next mourning Lee Ann had her voice back.
I drove around for awhile, touring the city before going to find Maplecroft. I drove on the marine heritage drive I think it was called. After finding Maplecroft I went to the FRHS I was met by Michael Martins at the door, I recognized him from "a woman accused". I asked him if they gave tours. Michael said that the next tour was at 1:00 pm but that there was a group of school students that were there to take the 1:00 pm tour and he thought that I might not prefer to take it with them. Michael said that there would be another tour at 2:00 pm and that I might like to take that tour. I asked him "what time is it now?" he said "a quarter of 1:00. I said that I would be back for the 2:00 pm tour.
I decided to try oak grove again before the FRHS tour. It took awhile to find the main entrance. I drove around about 3/4 of the cemetary, following roads in, meeting the wall, following roads out, then in again, meeting the wall again. I did this several times before I found the main entrance. I followed the arrows. When I got to the plot there was a car parked there. I thought that the people in the car had just arrived there as I had. Then I noticed another vehicle in front of the car. Then I noticed the back right door of one of the vehicles (I can't remember which vehicle it was now) close as the last person had just gotten in. The vehicle in front took off and the car followed it. I got out and visited the borden family plot.
After that I still had awhile before the 2:00 pm tour at the FRHS so I drove around the hill for awhile. I arrived at the FRHS just before 2:00 pm and took the tour. After the tour I had awhile before check in time at the B and B so I drove around touring somemore.
After entering the house Dee showed us to our rooms. The guests on the second floor were shown to their rooms first. We were all following Dee around from room to room in a crowd as Dee was showing us to them. We walked through Lizzie's room into Andrew and Abby's room then back into Lizzie's room again. After I walked through the door way I looked back and said "I guess that must be the door that was nailed shut". Dee said "what?" in the kind of voice that made me realize that I might ruin it for everyone if I gave everything away. Later on, I seen the key on the mantlepiece in the sitting room and I knew why it was there, I thought about what I had said about the door earlier and knew that it was better to say nothing about it. That night Lee Ann had lost her voice so Dee gave the tour. By the next mourning Lee Ann had her voice back.
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
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- Location: Central Florida
I remember your story of getting lost and by yourself, too!
Wow! Adventuresome!
We did go to the cemetery after the house tour. We were a big van and a rental car. Chevy Malibu I think. And a little dog. Who peed on Abraham Borden's grave.
Dee is just great! She's a member here, as well as Lee-ann and Ed T.
Which door was nailed shut?
The door between Lizzie's room and Andrew's was locked on his side and Lizzie had a hook on hers. It wasn't nailed shut, as far as I know.
Inquest
Lizzie
A. Father's bedroom door was kept locked, and his door into my room was locked and hooked too I think, and I had no keys.
Q. That was the custom of the establishment?
A. It had always been so.
Q. It was so Wednesday, and so Thursday?
A. It was so Wednesday, but Thursday they broke the door open.
Q. That was after the crowd came; before the crowd came?
58 (15)
A. It was so.
Q. There was no access, except one had a key, and one would have to have two keys?
A. They would have to have two keys if they went up the back way to get into my room. If they were in my room, they would have to have a key to get into his room, and another to get into the back stairs.
On the same page, Lizzie describes the door to the guestroom from her room:
Q. Was the door locked?
A. It has been locked and bolted, and a large writing desk in my room kept up against it.
Q. Then it was not a practical opening?
A. No sir.
Wow! Adventuresome!
We did go to the cemetery after the house tour. We were a big van and a rental car. Chevy Malibu I think. And a little dog. Who peed on Abraham Borden's grave.
Dee is just great! She's a member here, as well as Lee-ann and Ed T.
Which door was nailed shut?
The door between Lizzie's room and Andrew's was locked on his side and Lizzie had a hook on hers. It wasn't nailed shut, as far as I know.
Inquest
Lizzie
A. Father's bedroom door was kept locked, and his door into my room was locked and hooked too I think, and I had no keys.
Q. That was the custom of the establishment?
A. It had always been so.
Q. It was so Wednesday, and so Thursday?
A. It was so Wednesday, but Thursday they broke the door open.
Q. That was after the crowd came; before the crowd came?
58 (15)
A. It was so.
Q. There was no access, except one had a key, and one would have to have two keys?
A. They would have to have two keys if they went up the back way to get into my room. If they were in my room, they would have to have a key to get into his room, and another to get into the back stairs.
On the same page, Lizzie describes the door to the guestroom from her room:
Q. Was the door locked?
A. It has been locked and bolted, and a large writing desk in my room kept up against it.
Q. Then it was not a practical opening?
A. No sir.
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Fargo
- Posts: 976
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:43 pm
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IT was probably just locked, I kind of figured that it it was locked and not nailed. In the first story I read on it (it was a collection of short stories) it said it was nailed shut. On the biography "a woman accused" it said it was nailed shut. There was another TV program that said that the door was nailed shut but I don't recall which program it was right now. I looked for nail holes but saw none. I thought that mabe they had been covered up.
We find many things in history were some people add there own version of things, not that they are trying to distort the facts but that is just how they believed it happened. It is easy to do that if you don't think of the other options that were available. When it comes to cuting off the access between lizzie room and andrew's room there are different options. There is said to have been furnature up against both sides of the door, that is one option. Another option is to lock the door. One more option is to nail the door. Of course you could do all three options if you wanted to.
There is one of the TV documentarys that says that andrew and abbys bodies were buried and then later exhumed to remove the heads, whereas every other source I have seen says that the heads were removed before the bodies were buried. Sometimes people assume things and then repeat their assumptions as if they are facts. I am not criticizing anyone that has done that because it something that we all do unintentionally.
We find many things in history were some people add there own version of things, not that they are trying to distort the facts but that is just how they believed it happened. It is easy to do that if you don't think of the other options that were available. When it comes to cuting off the access between lizzie room and andrew's room there are different options. There is said to have been furnature up against both sides of the door, that is one option. Another option is to lock the door. One more option is to nail the door. Of course you could do all three options if you wanted to.
There is one of the TV documentarys that says that andrew and abbys bodies were buried and then later exhumed to remove the heads, whereas every other source I have seen says that the heads were removed before the bodies were buried. Sometimes people assume things and then repeat their assumptions as if they are facts. I am not criticizing anyone that has done that because it something that we all do unintentionally.