Liz Crothers

[ghostcat1313]

Sorry to start a whole new topic with your name, but could not find the one where someone asked you what your teachers thought of you being so interested in the Lizzie Borden case, writing a book etc, and you remarked that a teacher(s) felt you will end up as a "serial killer".
Some teachers can be so cruel, most because they have never been able to make it in their career choice in life and end up as teachers in a school system. I say this from experience. Not to bad mouth teachers, a lot are great, I was a teacher for almost 15 years myself. Growing up I saw it alot, in fact , one good friend of mine in high school was Maria (Nianokis) Stephanos. I remember one day she was really upset, saying that a teacher and a guidance counselor told her that if she stuck with her boyfriend, she would basically be a loser and never get anywhere in life. I always remembered this, she was such a great, honest and outgoing person. Guess what, ever watch Fox25 news? well Maria Stephanos is the anchorwoman, and her "once boyfriend",now her husband, (Dale) is a political cartoonist for a New York paper and several other papers, both successfull and still in love since high school with two great kids. So, please, never believe a teacher that makes such a negative statement about you for no reason whatsoever. (Last sentence was edited to express what I meant to say when I originally posted this)
Liz, my father was an attorney and he always said the best attorneys were few and hard to find. He said the best attorneys had "to understand a criminal, and had to have a criminal mind themself". I see that in your posts, you really understand or try to "understand that criminal mind". You are so smart for a 16 year old, don't ever let anyone else tell you different. You have such a great ambition and potential for someone your age. Keep on track of what you are doing, write that book, finish high school and go to college...(another word of advise from my dad.....choose an occupation you love, and you will never see it as work).
As for me, a once teacher, now an owner of a home business real estate appraisal company.........I see your success no matter what you do, I think you would make a great journalist or attorney though! And if anyone can crack the Lizzie Borden case, you can, LOL

[Audrey]

Pure hogwash

[ghostcat1313]

Not Hogwash, and why so negative to an intelligent 16 year old??

[theebmonique]

Ghostcat, may I ask what grade/subject you taught ?


Tracy...

[ghostcat1313]

Sure, I was a part - time physical education teacher / elementary age and also director of an after school program/summer camp for children k-16, currently as I said I am a real estate appraiser and also am a reserve police officer.

[Audrey]

I did not mean to be negative to a 16 year old who I do not find particularly well mannered or intelligent.. But that's subjective...

I hope no one ever advises my children on one side of the story...

It all boils down to a matter of credibility.

[ghostcat1313]

Understand you Audrey, I replied kind of feeling like I remember what it was like being 16 years old again. She does have a lot of spunk for a teenager, whether being right or wrong, lol

[theebmonique]

I am not sure what your experience in the classroom was like, as in my district the elementary PE specialists don't have their own separate classroom or students. They travel around to the different elementary schools teaching the PE part of the curriculum. They don't get to work with students on a long term basis. They also don't deal with grades, administration, or parent-teacher conferences.

This was written by a friend of mine who is a teacher for the National Education Association in Washington D.C.

We teach...good nutrition and first aid.

We diversify our curriculum and instruction to meet the personal and individual needs of all our students, including:
...the blind.
...the hearing impaired.
...the emotionally disturbed.
...the physically challenged.
...the mentally disabled.
AND...the gifted and talented.
Not to mention...students who don’t fit into ANY of the categories.

We make sure they’ve had their immunizations.
...make sure they understand disease control.
And...teach them to resist drugs, alcohol, and tobacco.

We give career counseling
...pregnancy counseling
...suicide counseling

We provide computer instruction and sex education.

We instill an understanding of civil rights
...and the political process
...and foster racial and social tolerance
...and an appreciation of our cultural diversity.

We teach the principals of free enterprise.
...and good telephone manners.

We report child abuse.
Develop personal responsibility.
...and check for head lice.

We raise money for the homeless.
...and for kidney transplants.
...and new playground equipment

We practice bicycle safety.
And which side of the street to walk on.

We provide bilingual education.
Teach...
...metrics.
...how to be a wise consumer.
...exercise
...weight control
And...how to drive a car.

We teach the importance of ancient cultures.
And...give kids the skills to predict what may happen to ours in the future.
We teach them to revere our environment.
...how to manage their money.
...how to access information.
...how to make wise choices.
And...how to balance a checkbook.

We teach loyalty to the ideals of a democracy.

We build patriotism.
...good oral hygiene
And...a sense of respect for the worth and dignity of EVERY individual.

We nurture curiosity and a questioning nature.
...build self esteem.

And then.......

.......we teach reading, writing, and arithmetic.

[ghostcat1313]

Thanks for sharing, that is great, sums it all up. Are you a teacher? What grade do you teach?
Here in MA, I did have my own separate classroom, the gymnasium, working with the same grades/same students. I dealt with giving the students grades etc. I loved to teach them new skills, awareness of fitness, working together/team building, cooperative games, etc. I do miss it, I gave it all up for a career change. I also was always getting sick, especially during the winter, constantly with colds, virus' etc., just could not shake it. My doctor told me if I wanted to get better, stay away from kids.... after years of being sick, I am finally healthy, lol

[theebmonique]

Yes, I am a teacher, and I love it. I do get my hackles up a bit when someone seemingly slams my profession because of one bad apple. The story I just posted does sum it up well. Plus, there is the thing about teachers going in early...staying late (both unpaid), and on the average in my district, spending about $800-$1,000/year out of our own pockets for supplies, etc. I realize that not all teachers may love it like I do, but I love working with my 7th/8th grade science students. They CAN and DO trust me.

Another story about teachers...

The Blueberry Story: The Teacher Gives the Business Man a Lesson
.......by Jamie Robert Vollmer - A business man

"If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn't be in business very long!"

I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of in-service. Their initial icy glares had turned to
restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools.

I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the "Best Ice Cream
in America."

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging "knowledge
society".

Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly.

They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement! In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.

As soon as I finished, a woman's hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant -- she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload.

She began quietly, "We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream."

I smugly replied, "Best ice cream in America, Ma'am."

"How nice," she said. "Is it rich and smooth?"
"Sixteen percent butterfat," I crowed. "Premium ingredients?" she inquired.

"Super-premium! Nothing but triple A." I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

"Mr. Vollmer," she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, "when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?">

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap.... I was dead meat, but I wasn't going to lie. "I send them back."

"That's right!" she barked, "and we can never send back our blueberries.

We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We
take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it's not a business. It's school!"

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, "Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!"

And so began that man's long transformation. Since then, he has visited hundreds of schools. He has learned, as will others, that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon
the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night.

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community.

An important thing we all must learn is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.

[Allen]

I know you are a teacher Tracy, and you seem to be a caring individual. Your students are so lucky to have you as their teacher. You take pride in your job, and it really shows. I know you are probably one of the most caring, kind, and encouraging teachers that your students will ever have. Unfortunately, there are teachers out there who should not be in a classroom. They talk down to their students, make remarks about them that are uncalled for, and seem to take a sort of glee in getting them into trouble. I know this because my children have had a couple of them.
My son actually had a math teacher who refused, REFUSED, to explain the subject to him any further if he had problems understanding it when she explained it to the rest of the class. She said that was my job. Yes as a parent it is my job to help my children with their school work. But I think this teacher was downright nasty.

[theebmonique]

Oh, I know there are some teachers who have the 'bedside manner' of a junkyard dog. I know that every 'profession' has it's 'less than cordial' folk. I wouldn't mind if someone wants to talk about a beef they have with one teacher in particular. It was the never trust a teacher comment that I took the most exception to.


Another story:

“ABSOLUTELY” THE BEST DENTISTS
By John Taylor
Former Superintendent of Schools, Lancaster County, SC

My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don’t forget checkups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I’ve got all my teeth, so when I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he’d heard about the new state program. I knew he’d think it was great.

“Did you hear about the new state program to measure the effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?” I said.

‘No,” he said. He didn’t seem too thrilled. “How will they do that?”

“It’s quite simple,” I said. “They will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist’s rating. Dentists will be rated as Excellent, Good, Average, Below Average and Unsatisfactory. That way parents will know which are the best dentists. It will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better,” I said. “Poor dentists who don’t improve could lose their licenses to practice in this state.”

“That’s terrible,” he said.

“ What? That’s not a good attitude,” I said. “Don’t you think we should try to improve children’s dental health in this state?”

“Sure I do,” he said, “but that’s not a fair way to determine who is practicing good dentistry.”

“Why not?” I said. “It makes perfect sense to me.”

“Well, it’s so obvious,” he said. “Don’t you see that dentists don’t all work with the same clientele; so much depends on things we can’t control?

“For example,” he said, “I work in a rural area with a high percentage of patients from deprived homes, while some of my colleagues work in upper-middle class neighborhoods. Many of the parents I work with don’t bring their children to see me until there is some kind of problem and I don’t get to do much preventive work.

“Also,” he said, “many of the parents I serve let their kids eat way too much candy from a young age, unlike more educated parents who understand the relationship between sugar and decay.

“To top it all off,” he added, “so many of my clients have well water which is untreated and has no fluoride in it. Do you have any idea how much difference early use of fluoride can make?”

“It sounds like you’re making excuses,” I said. I couldn’t believe my dentist would be so defensive. He does a great job.

“I am not!” he said. “My best patients are as good as anyone’s, my work is as good as anyone’s, but my average cavity count is going to be higher than a lot of other dentists because I chose to work where I am needed most.”

“Don’t get touchy,” I said.

“Touchy?” he said. His face had turned red, and from the way he was clenching and unclenching his jaws, I was afraid he was going to damage his teeth. “Try furious. In a system like this, I will end up being rated average, below average or worse.

“On top of that, how will I attract good dental hygienists and other excellent dentists to my practice if it is labeled below average?”

“I think you’re over-reacting,” I said. “Complaining, excuse making and stonewalling won’t improve dental health’…I am quoting that from a leading member of the DOC,” I noted.

“What’s the DOC?” he said.

“It’s the Dental Oversight Committee,” I said, “a group made up of mostly lay-persons to make sure dentistry in this state gets improved.”

“Spare me,” he said. “I can’t believe this. Reasonable people won’t buy it.” He said hopefully.

The program sounded reasonable to me, so I asked, “How else would you measure good dentistry?”

“Come watch me work,” he said. “Observe my processes.”

“That’s too complicated and time consuming,” I said. “Cavities are the bottom line, and you can’t argue with the bottom line. It’s an absolute measure.”

“That’s what I’m afraid my patients and prospective patients will think. This can’t be happening,” he said despairingly.

“Now, now,” I said, “don’t despair. The state will help you some.”

“How?” he said.

“If you’re rated poorly, they’ll send a dentist who is rated excellent to help straighten you out,” I said brightly.

“You mean,” he said, “they will send a dentist with a wealthy clientele to show me how to work on severe juvenile dental problems with which I have probably had much more experience? Big help.”

“There you go again,” I said. “You aren’t acting professionally at all.”

“You don’t get it,” he said. “Doing this would be like grading schools and teachers on an average score on a test of children’s progress without regard to influences outside the school—the home, the community served and stuff like that. Why would they do something so unfair to dentists? No one would ever think of doing that to schools.”

I just shook my head sadly, but he had brightened. “I’m going to write my representatives and senator,” he said. “I’ll use the school analogy—surely they’ll see my point.”

He walked off with that look of hope mixed with fear and suppressed anger that I see in the mirror so often lately.

[ghostcat1313]

Didn't mean to slam the teaching profession, most are great and do well, I did, sounds like you do and go well above and beyond your job. I was bothered that someone asked Liz Crothers on this website what her teacher(s) thought of her studying Lizzie Borden and writing her book(in fact , I think it was you), her reply as I recall was that they (her teachers) thought she would grow up to be a serial killer. I have seen many teachers make a great impact on students lives and I have seen the opposite, as in this case. One negative statement to a child/teen can change their whole outlook on life. As a teacher, my greatest gift was to bring out the best in each student and have others see it. I was particularly sensitive to the way Liz's teacher (s) responded to her. Just because Liz has a certain interest in a specific person/event that they are obviously not into, does not justify them to make
a crude/negative comment about Liz. Although you may not agree this happens, it does, as a student and teacher, I have seen many teachers negative words (and it does not take much) really do a number on kids/teenagers.

[theebmonique]

I was bothered that someone asked Liz Crothers on this website what her teacher(s) thought of her studying Lizzie Borden and writing her book,

I was the one who asked that of Liz. I did not ask it to cause grief, but as a general question...because I was truly interested in what she is experiencing in school in her part of the country. I wondered what kind of help she may be getting from her teachers as she writes her book.

Although you may not agree this happens

Let me say it again...I know there are some teachers who have the 'bedside manner' of a junkyard dog. I know that every 'profession' has it's 'less than cordial' folk.

So, I do agree it happens. It was mostly when you said NEVER trust a teacher that I felt I needed to stand up for what I and MANY other teachers do. I know there are days when I can have a bad day and not be as friendly as usual...but if I think I may have said something to a student that they make take very personally (in a negative way), I do my best to make it up to them. At the age of students that I teach, they love us one minute and not so much the next, then back to loving us again by the end of the class period. I would never presume to say I am perfect...I just know I love what I do.


Tracy...

[theebmonique]

Another story (last one)...

The Increasing Burden on America's Public Schools
The following article appears on www.jvollmer.com. The author, Jamie Robert Vollmer, is a former business executive and attorney. He now works as a keynote presenter and consultant who works to increase community support for public schools.
By Jamie Vollmer (THE BUSINESS MAN FROM THE BLUEBERRY STORY)
At the beginning of the 20th century, society began to assign additional responsibilities to the school. Politicians and business leaders saw the schools as the logical site for both the assimilation of immigrants and the social engineering of citizens of the "Industrial Age." The trend of increasing the responsibilities of the public schools has accelerated ever since.

FROM 1900 TO 1910, WE ADDED
· Nutrition
· Immunizations, and
· Health to the list of school responsibilities

FROM 1910 TO 1930, WE ADDED
· Physical Education, including organized activities
· The practical arts
· Vocational education, including home economics and agricultural education, and
· School transportation began to be mandated

IN THE 1940s, WE ADDED
· Business education
· Art and music
· Speech and drama
· Half day kindergarten, and
· School lunch programs appeared. (We take this for granted today. It was, however, a significant step to shift to the schools the job of feeding America's children 1/3 of their daily meals.)

IN THE 1950s, WE ADDED
· Expanded science and math education
· Safety education
· Driver's education
· Expanded music and art education
· Foreign language requirements were strengthened, and
· Sex education was introduced (Topics continue to escalate)
IN THE 1960s, WE ADDED
· Advanced placement programs
· Head Start
· Title I
· Adult education
· Consumer education
· Career education
· Peace, leisure and recreation education

IN THE 1970s, WE ADDED
· Special Education mandated by the Federal government
· Title IX programs (greatly expanded athletic programs for girls)
· Drug and alcohol abuse education
· Parent education
· Behavior adjustment classes
· Character education
· Environmental education
· Women's studies
· African-American heritage education, and
· School breakfast programs appeared (Now, some schools feed America's children 2/3 of their daily meals. Sadly, these are the only decent meals some children receive.)

IN THE 1980s, THE FLOOD GATES OPENED, AND WE ADDED
· Keyboarding and computer education
· Global education
· Ethnic education
· Multicultural/non-sexist education
· English-as-a-second language, and bilingual education
· Teen pregnancy awareness
· Hispanic heritage education
· Early Childhood education
· Jump-Start, Early Start, Even Start, and Prime Start
· Full day kindergarten
· Pre-school programs for children at-risk
· After school programs for children of working parents
· Alternative education in all its forms
· Stranger/danger education
· Anti-smoking education
· Sexual abuse prevention education
· Health and psychological services were expanded, and
· Child abuse monitoring became a legal requirement for all teachers

IN THE 1990s, WE ADDED
· Conflict resolution and peer mediation
· HIV/AIDS education
· CPR training
· Death education
· Expanded computer and Internet education
· Inclusion
· Tech Prep and School to work programs
· Gang education (in urban centers)
· Bus safety, bicycle safety, gun safety, and water safety education

IN THE FIRST YEARS OF THE 21ST CENTURY, WE HAVE SUPERIMPOSED
UPON EVERYTHING ELSE
· A layer of high-stakes, standardized tests.

AND IN MOST STATES WE HAVE NOT ADDED A SINGLE MINUTE TO THE CALENDAR
DAY IN FIVE
DECADES!
All of these added items have merit, and all have their ardent supporters, but they all cannot be assigned to the schools. No generation of teachers in the history of the world has been asked to meet this goal.
Americans in every community must come together to answer two essential questions: What do they want their children to know and be able to do when they graduate, and how can schools and the entire community be organized to ensure that all children reach the stated goals.
THE BOTTOM LINE: SCHOOLS CANNOT DO IT ALONE. SCHOOLS CANNOT RAISE AMERICA'S CHILDREN.

[theebmonique]

Melissa, I hope you were able to get things worked out with your son's teacher, whether you worked with the teacher directly or went through the school administration. PM me and let me know if you want.


Tracy...

[Mark A.]

Why do the "Bad" teachers stick out in our minds? I have one teacher at my daughter's school that I had a problem with but instead of holding a grudge and marking all teachers in that school as "bad", I went directly to her and talked it out. My daughter attends a Charter school where students have the same teacher for a period of 3 years. So my daughter's kindergarten teacher will also be her 1st and 2nd grade teacher. I figured that I had better straighten the issue out early because it was not like we had to deal with one supposed bad teacher for 1 year.
I read Ghostcat1313"s post and the first thing that jumped out at me was the comment "So, please, never believe a teacher". I think that was poor advice. Maybe " don't believe EVERY teacher but by the same token, don't paint ALL teachers with such a broad brush.
I read Liz Crouthers post and I must say that I find them funny. She post a 2 word reply or comment to a post. That's her style. I also see her use in grammer is not as good as some of the other forum members. Then again, neither is mine.
Let's remember that she is also a lot younger then most of us. With age comes experience, with experience comes Wisdom. What I see in reading Theebmonique's (Tracy) replies to Liz's post is a teacher, parent, friend, forum member saying " Hey kid, did you mean to say this, or do you think that this would work better or, I disagree, here is why. " I see Tracy doing what she does best, teaching. A policeman doesn't stop policing when he or she goes home. A teacher does't stop teaching when not in the classroom.

[Liz Crouthers]

Okay I leave for a day or so and I come back with my name as a topic. First off Ghostcat you are really sweet and I wish my mom talked like you.

second I have bad grammer because I'm always in a rush when typing and I look at my hands.

And I plan to graduate College as a Borden case Historian
Most of my teachers are cruel to them they only have to tolerate you till the end of the day.
My teachers (not all) are cruel.
Like everyone else I meet in person

[Kat]

Yes, as to what Mark said about Tracy!
She amazes me here by the way she talks to the young folk, and elicits a response which I never expected.
I have a bit of trouble sometimes understanding Liz and Tracy asks the right question and Voila! The answer is there, and slightly different than I thought.
She's very good at it.

In person, in my neighborhood, I have no trouble talking to the young folk and consider them my friends, but on-line it seems hard.

[theebmonique]

I must say a most humble thank you for all the kind remarks from my friends here in the forum. And actually, all of the comments have been helpful, even the negative ones about teachers. They help to make me more aware of feelings that parents and students may have that I may not see...and to help me hopefully avoid saying or doing things to my students and their parents that may cause the grief some of you have experienced. Thank you.

Liz, you do have the drive and ambition...luckily it comes naturally to you. You can fix the spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. with practice and experience, and with finding someone to mentor you and help you channel your energy along the most positive and productive line.

I know with what you have said about your teachers, that one of them may not be your choice for a mentor, but is there anyone else in your high school, or even back in your middle school who you would feel good about turning to ? If you are serious about writing this book and becoming a Borden historian, you need to have someone who can give you a good writing skills foundation, support you when you get discouraged, and someone to help you stay focused on your goal. No one should go it alone.


Tracy...

[Audrey]

Apparently I am very (too?) strict with my children. We discussed this at length today!

My expectations of them are quite high. Their demeanor, manners and level of respect for others is expected to be quite high-- something I see I failed to follow in my earlier posts. I should not have posted "hog wash"....

They have come over the years with various complaints about teachers.... I never dismissed their complaints-- But I learned quickly to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Liz... If your teachers are truly cruel to you then you should tell your mother. If she doesn't believe you/listen/care then tell the Principal. If he doesn't listen to you then go to a trusted adult.

Have you ever noticed that you can not change another person's reality-- but you can change your reaction to it?

Frankly, if I was your teacher and you acted in class like you do sometimes on here-- I would not feel too kindly toward you myself.

Again, I am happy to do all I can to help you in any way I can... I am always at martins@evertek.net

BTW... Kat gets an XOXOXO for using the word "voila" in her post...

[FairhavenGuy]

As interesting as this topic is, it really should be in the Privy, I think.

Perhaps our Administrator could move it for us.

With the recent influx of new members, I'm finding more and more topics are not being posted in the correct categories. I know it's a pain to try to sort them out now, but it might help non-member readers if we try to post to the correct categories.

As to this particular topic, my wife had a rather poor English teacher (who doubled as a football coach) in high school. She was miserable and got poor grades until she was switched into a different class. Teacher #2 recognized her abilities and nutured her talent. My wife ended up being an English major and became a reporter, then editor of our town's weekly newspaper. Now she and I publish our own monthly magazine. (Teacher #2 retires this year and Lori included a nice editorial about her in our magazine this month. The first teacher eventually became the high school athletic director, much to the relief of anyone taking English. When he retired, we ignored it completely.)

[Liz Crouthers]

something I see I failed to follow in my earlier posts. I should not have posted "hog wash"....

Liz... If your teachers are truly cruel to you then you should tell your mother. If she doesn't believe you/listen/care then tell the Principal. If he doesn't listen to you then go to a trusted adult.



Frankly, if I was your teacher and you acted in class like you do sometimes on here-- I would not feel too kindly toward you myself.

Again, I am happy to do all I can to help you in any way I can... I am always at martins@evertek.net

BTW... Kat gets an XOXOXO for using the word "voila" in her post...

1. The hog wash is fine I wouldn't hold anything against anyone.
2. Okay I told my mom and she went to talk to the principal, but here is the real problem, my principal is racist and doesn't care.
3. I don't act out in class. (in school I'm the sweet little shy blonde in the class that may say one or two words a year) I don't cause trouble, I'm nice to all my teachers whether they like me or not. I do my work and I have a 3.5 GPA :littleangel:

I don't get it.

[ghostcat1313]

Liz, you really sound just like me when I was your age. In school, I was smart, got good grades, was quiet and shy. What bothered me was my teachers and their attitudes. Call it bad luck or what, but when I look back I would say 80% of my junior and senior high teachers should not have been teachers. These individuals who had a great opportunity to be role model, as you said Liz, where just waiting for the day to end, most in my case were older and hanging on for retirement. Don't let their negative attitude effect you. As Tracy said find a mentor, someone supportive (whether a teacher or not) and don't go it alone. Tracy, all teachers should be like you !!!!! Your students are so lucky. ok, enough advice, Fairhaven wants to move this to Privy ( I can't access that room and I am a member ??). One last thing Liz, you stated you think your principal is racist? Can you explain why you feel that way?? Keeping this is line with the forum......as we are talking about teachers and students, what do you think Lizzie was like as a student ? Did she attend public school? Was anything ever mentioned what she was like as a child? Did she have friends?

[theebmonique]

Audrey my dear, Hogwash was fine ! It was a GREAT catalyst in getting this discussion really going. If you han't posted that, we may have never taken this discussion this far. You did the right thing. And as for your children...you have raised them right. I know them to be very well-mannered and respectful...and nothing less. They are great kids...especially the daughter you stole from me.

Liz, if what you say is true about the Principal, and you have hard eveidence, contact an attorney...or even the ACLU. Do not allow this to keep happening. Stop it now.

I agree with what Audrey says:Frankly, if I was your teacher and you acted in class like you do sometimes on here-- I would not feel too kindly toward you myself. I have a few students who really try my patience.

You are almost legally an adult. If you want to to be accepted as an adult, you must act as one. I know it must be hard to be in the 'almost' place. You want to do adult things, yet you still have some childlike ideas and feelings too. The rights and privilages of adults, also have responsibilities. It's a trade off. You will be a grown up soon enough...and for a long time. Enjoy your young years while you can. Someday you will long for their return.

I do agree with Chris that this should probably be in the Privy, or even in Stay to Tea. Better yet using the PM/email feature would probably be OK too. I am enjoying the back and forth banter and discussion...so I hope we can continue it somewhere.


Tracy...

[Kat]

Dr. Phil says 16 year-old brains are not finished forming. I think it takes until about age 21, so that "Legal" age is not so very arbitrary after all.

[theebmonique]

Excellent point Kat. I like Dr Phil. I am glad Oprah 'discovered' him.


Tracy...

[Liz Crouthers]

So are you saying I'm dumb?

[ghostcat1313]

Liz, damn, you are the pure spitting image of me at your age. No... you know and I know and everyone knows, you are not dumb. You said you had a 3.5 gpa. You do like to challenge in a conversation though. Great cross examining question, lol, can't wait for the reply. Sure you don't want to be an attorney?

Still curious though on Lizzie as a child/teen, could explain a lot, I was just told she dropped out of school, and was made fun of while in school?? Anyone know??

[doug65oh]

I don't recall ever reading anywhere that Lizzie was made fun of, but she did apparently leave school...if I recall correctly in about the tenth grade.

The irony is that one of her school contemporaries (he being one year older than she) was none other than Philip Harrington, who in conjunction with Patrick Doherty generated many pages of information contained in the Witness Statements. It's pure conjecture as to whether Harrington knew of Lizzie in her school days. We do know, however that Harrington worked for Andrew Borden as a young boy. (1 Trial, pg. 558.)

[Harry]

From the Boston Herald, August 6, 1892:

"As a child she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances, and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. Her sister, being older, was a constant guide and an idolized companion.
An unusual circumstance is that of her practically having no choice of friends until she attained womanhood. At the usual age she was sent to the Morgan street school, embracing primary and grammar schools. Her school days were perhaps unlike most girls in this lack of affiliation with her fellow pupils. As a scholar she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application always held a good rank in her class.
She entered the high school when about 15 or 16 years old. It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust sts., which was removed when the present mammoth structure was presented to the city.
Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school. She abandoned her piano music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician. If she could not excel in this accomplishment she did not wish to pursue the study, and so her friends heard her play thereafter but little.
-------------
When a young girl, she accompanied her parents to Chicago, and was there a member of the Sunday school class and punctual in attendance.
She was, however, a girl with anything but an enthusiastic idea of her own personal attainments. She thought people were not favorably disposed toward her and that she made a poor impression. This conduced to the acceptance of this very opinion among church people, and consequently the young woman was to some extent avoided by the young women of the church.
There was a remarkable change in her some five years ago and at that time she first began to fraternize with church people. Then, of course, when she was thoroughly understood, when the obnoxiously retiring manner was dissipated and the responsive nature of the girl came to view, she became at once popular and then came the acquisition of the friends who today sound her praises.”

[Haulover]

***As interesting as this topic is, it really should be in the Privy, I think.***


the above from fairhaven -- i agree with it, and that's what i was going to say as i scrolled down -- until i saw he beat me to it. i was kind of startled to see a poster's name as subject in the LAB case study section. it doesn't bother me personally, but it will always be an oddity in what is generally a section for serious input on the case. (yeah, i know, so what? but when, why?)

some do, some may not know -- that these threads are archived and become serious references for students and writers. i'm not trying to cite a major ethical transgression -- justing pointing out a simple fact. i have no authority here, but it bugs me a little in all honesty. i also agree with chris' suggestion to have it moved.

[doug65oh]

I second the sentiments of the gentlemen from Fairhaven and Atlanta respectively, as expressed above.

[Liz Crouthers]

Same here

[Allen]

I second the sentiments of the gentlemen from Fairhaven and Atlanta respectively, as expressed above.

I agree.

[Liz Crouthers]

Are we done here or do people still have more comments

[ghostcat1313]

Why were you not in school today??, lol

[theebmonique]

Because school is out for the summer ?


Tracy...

[Mark A.]

Wow, school is out for the summer already? My daughter has the pleasure of attending until June 29th because they had to make up lost days due to the Blizzard of 2005. I guess that it could be worse. My nieces & nephews in New Bedford had to go to school for the past few Saturdays to make up for snow days.

[ghostcat1313]

School is still going on here in Newburyport MA until the end of June, lots of makeup days from snow but I did not think that many.

[Liz Crouthers]

I have been on summer vacation since the 24th