So, who thinks Radin was right?...........

[KT72]

I was going to post this as a poll but I have no idea how to do that

I just finished Radin's book (first time I read it thoroughly, all the way through) and I think he makes quite a case against Bridget. For some reason I had never seriously thought of Bridget as a suspect, but since reading Radin I'm not so sure anymore. I'm not so great at understanding all the time discrepancies, but it does seem that Bridget had a half-hour of unaccounted time; and her testimonies were quite inconsistent.

Bridget's alibi is every bit as flimsy as Lizzie's. Who on earth vomits for 15 straight minutes, unless they're hospital-worthy? And lying down in her room - well, we have only her word on that, don't we?

As for motive - I can totally agree with Radin that it could have very simply been an emotional boil-over. He quotes a case where a young woman told a window-washer to use ammonia on the windows and he killed her because he "resented being told what to do". Then there is the case from Le Mans, France, which I've seen referred to on this forum, of the two sisters who killed their employer and her daughter simply because they felt oppressed.

Morse testified that Abby asked Bridget to wash the windows before he left. Then Bridget testified that she was asked to wash the windows at a later time. According to Radin, both may be correct. Abby might have asked Bridget to wash the windows; then later, Bridget may have asked for a reprieve due to her illness, and Abby refused.

It's true that Bridget testified that she liked her job and "got along all right"; but there's every chance she was lying about this. I heard or read somewhere that it was common for people to call their Irish female servants "Maggie", as a kind of nationalistic slur. As a servant, Bridget couldn't really do anything about this except allow her ill feelings about it to fester. This could certainly lead to some kind of blow-up.

I think Radin brings up a valid point when he questions the presence of Bridget's attorney. I always thought this odd myself. First of all, that a servant in that time period would even have an attorney; and second, that she would summon him when it was clear she was not a suspect.

When Lizzie wished someone would go look for Abby, Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went to do that. Mrs. Churchill stated that Bridget led the way - straight up the front stairs. Why not look in the cellar, where the privy and laundry were? Why head right for the front stairs? According to Radin - because Bridget already knew where Abby's body was.

Then there is the question of her leaving the house with an unsearched bundle - supposedly of her own belongings.

My only reservation is this - I can see a motive in Abby's case - but why kill Andrew as well? And why not take out your rage on the whole family? I mean, if someone continually insisted on calling Bridget by a wrong name, she'd probably want to take them out as well while she was at it..........And really, if she was so oppressed by Abby, why not just leave and get a new job? There were plently of them available, and Bridget had worked elsewhere in the past.

Also - it is a fact that Bridget came down from the attic when Lizzie called her, so we know she definitely was up there. However...could she, as Radin believes, have gone up there after killing Andrew and hid the weapon in the old water tank (for smuggling out later)? Would she have had enough time to do this?

Anyone have any thoughts on all this?

[RayS]

If all you know about the case is Radin's book, yes he does make a good argument. "Disgruntled Worker Kills Employer" is very common.
BUT we have Lizzie's word right after the murder: "It wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father". That is not in the book.

I think Radin took another look, found that Lizzie was not the Murdering Witch of legend, and provided another viewpoint. Lizzie was found 'not guilty' by those who were on the jury. It is a correction to the legend.

James Neff points out that those in Cleveland (and fooled by the press) believe that Dr. Sam was 1000% guilty. But those who had a more reasonable look at the case decided otherwise. F Lee Bailey filed his appeal and established Constitutional law (Sheppard v. Ohio).

[diana]

I wonder why Radin says: "It was Bridget, and Bridget alone, who said Mrs. Borden was still alive about 9:30, and then placed herself outside the house." (Radin, 217)

He stresses this sentence with italics and reiterates 9:30 as the last time she [Bridget] sees Mrs. Borden alive (again emphasized by Radin) in his time-chart shown on the next few pages.

But Bridget consistently testifies in court that the last time she saw Abby alive was around 9 -- not 9:30. (Prelim. 8, 13, 68, 69)

So where does Bridget indicate Abby was alive about 9:30?

[Smudgeman]

If all you know about the case is Radin's book, yes he does make a good argument. "Disgruntled Worker Kills Employer" is very common.
BUT we have Lizzie's word right after the murder: "It wasn't Bridget or anyone who worked for Father". That is not in the book.

I think Radin took another look, found that Lizzie was not the Murdering Witch of legend, and provided another viewpoint. Lizzie was found 'not guilty' by those who were on the jury. It is a correction to the legend.

James Neff points out that those in Cleveland (and fooled by the press) believe that Dr. Sam was 1000% guilty. But those who had a more reasonable look at the case decided otherwise. F Lee Bailey filed his appeal and established Constitutional law (Sheppard v. Ohio).

We have Lizzie's word right after the murders, and she was lying. Why would we believe Lizzie's word right after the murders? She doesn't even know where she was when Father came home , and had a hard time accounting for her wherabouts during the murdering hours. I believe Bridget probably helped her with her timeline, and neither one of their alibis are quite accurate. There were some lies and half-truths told.........

[sguthmann]

Yes, but what was the motive behind Bridget killing the Bordens?? what could it possibly be? The theory "she snapped" is noice and easy because she didn't necessarily have to have a motive beyond removing that which annoyed her. But for a young woman who appears to have never shown any documented signs of psyhosis or "snapping" either before or after the murders, I find it hard to believe it would happen just this once. Such a person isn't going to fly into a murderous rage one day and never show signs either before or after. I just can't buy it the way Radin puts it.

Now a conspiracy involving Bridget either implicitly or explicitly...well, that I could swallow much more easily.

[mbhenty]

Though I always recommend Radin to the first time reader on the murders, I disagree with his ultimate outcome.

My partiality towards Radin's book is probably because I find it easy to read, and in addition, was the first book I read on the murders.

But that said, I think his book was a truning point on how we viewed Lizzie. That possibly it was someone in the house, and that sparked a controversy of opinion that led to many other narratives on the killings.

Also, the fact that he "DARED" take on Pearson, the father of Lizzie studies up untill that time, if not admirable then bold. To bad Pearson was not around to respond.

But, I do think that his was an honest study, and that his conclusion was sincerely what he believed.

Or perhaps, I am not much of a skeptic, and he a very good business man, who saw the time was right to open old wounds and make some easy cash. (?)

All-in-all, I like, "The Untold Story".

[1bigsteve]

I enjoyed Radin's book for a few reasons but I just don't buy into his Bridget did it theory. It is possible she did the killing but I don't think so. It doesn't ring for me. For one I can't see Bridget running across the street to the Dr.'s house with a hatchet hidden under her dress. Where was she going to take it? "Here Dr., be a dear and hide this hatchet for me please. I just wacked out the old folks?" Shove it down a gopher hole?

He did present Lizzie in a better light than other authors and I liked that. I think it just boils down to Bridget knowing what really happend and did not want to stay in that house any longer. Whether Lizzie, Emma or some other person did the killing I don't know.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

Bridget does seem to have missing time- my look at my own timeline shows about 20 minutes.
Radin's is expanded (thru bias?) to 1/2 an hour?
(His is hard for me to make out so I had done my own).
Bridget helping out after-the-fact seems to make some sense to me. She must have known something sooner or later. BTW: Her lawyer was the mayor's brother- that's the big time!
BTW2: I was introduced to her lawyer's greatgrandnephew in Fall River after Stefani's first lecture there, by Len Rebello.

[Kat]

How many jobs did Bridget have in the time she was in America?

[mbhenty]

Maggie had 4 jobs, one in Newport, one in Penn., two in Fall River.

(Five Jobs if you count the one at my house, after she was fired for stealing bottles of cleaner I use to clean my seal skin trench coat.)

[Susan]

Hmmm, Bridget worked first at the Perry House hotel for about 12 months, then she worked for Matthew Smiley for 12 months. Next was Mrs. Reed for 15 months, then Mrs. Remington for 7 months. The Bordens came next as Bridget's employers. Thats about all I could find in the Prelim Volume 1, page 45.


Oops, sorry Michael, I was still searching while you had posted your answer.

[Kat]

I made a mistake in my post. Bridget's lawyer WAS the mayor's brother, but not Coughlin's brother- the future mayor's brother, Cummings. I hope I haven't confused anyone!

Do you guys think that 5 jobs in 6 years might seem a bit excessive?
Thanks for looking that stuff up!!

[KT72]

5 jobs in 6 years does seem quite the turnover........

I was always surprised that Bridget was never a real suspect. Back then it would have been soooooo easy to make a foreigner the scapegoat - especially an Irish one, since the Irish weren't trusted and thought to be violent by nature. (Which is one thing that, IMO, helps point to Lizzie's innocence. If she were guilty, she could have easily pointed the finger at some poor immigrant and gotten off scot-free without even going to trial. But she didn't.)

I don't buy the "hatchet under the dress" theory either; but the idea that she may have hidden the weapon in the water tank for later smuggling out of the house is very plausible. Could this have been the extent of her involvement?......Could that have been her intended "deathbed" confession that was never actually made, I wonder.

Also - it was never proven that the weapon was a hatchet or an axe. It was an edged instrument - that's all. It could have been a meat cleaver. And being responsible for the kitchen duties, Bridget would have been more cleaver-savvy than anyone else in the house

But who really believes that Bridget was innocently upstairs napping? Like I said, that "alibi" is just as slippery as Lizzie's, if not more so.

And - why would Bridget be the "nice and easy" suspect? Isn't it Lizzie who's really the "nice and easy" suspect? People are much more prone to believe that people kill for money rather than rage and hatred; and that's pretty much universally the motive I hear quoted so often - Lizzie killed them for money. Supposedly no one else had a motive, because no one else would profit financially; and in the vast majority of opinions that's the primary motive in any case.

But it's a fact that if a person feels oppressed enough (whether or not they actually are), they are going to lash out in violence. Maybe Bridget was sick of being called "Maggie" - which really was an extremely insulting ethnic slur - and told to do laborious work while ill. Maybe this wasn't the first time that happened. It's more than enough of a motive, IMHO.

And no, there was no prior or future evidence of violence in Bridget's life - but neither was there in Lizzie's. (I don't for one instant buy that thing about the cat.) A murderer doesn't have to be a serial killer; it is possible (and perhaps common?) to have only one murderous episode.

I'm not married to this theory; it's just something I'd never given much thought to before and am having fun exploring

[Harry]

Keep in mind that it was only Lizzie and Emma who called Bridget "Maggie" so if that was the reason they would be more logical targets.

Her work duties do not appear to very hard compared to what most maids had to do in those days.

IMHO, Bridget should have been looked into far more closely than she was because I think she knew more than what she told.

[william]

Harry,

I agree. Bridget should have been investigated more thoroughly. Though I have no evdence I have always believed she was involved after the fact - she was too close to the murder, not to be involved.

. . . and then, of course, there is the unconfirmed story that Bridget returned to Ireland loaded with cash given to her by Lizzie, and purchased a new home for her mum. If I were thirty years younger, I'd purchase a ticket to the Emerald Isle and attempt to verify, or discount, if this event ever occurred . . .wouldn't that be exciting!

[RayS]

I made a mistake in my post. Bridget's lawyer WAS the mayor's brother, but not Coughlin's brother- the future mayor's brother, Cummings. I hope I haven't confused anyone!

Do you guys think that 5 jobs in 6 years might seem a bit excessive?
Thanks for looking that stuff up!!

Absolutely NOT. The proof is that no one then ever commented on it.
It could have been usual in that era. WHAT was the turnover at the Borden home before Bridget came there? Wasn't Abby a friend of Bridget?

I've never worked on a local AM radio station. But decades ago the local full-time radio station had a policy: everyone hired as an announcer would be let go after one year. There was one exception, and after 2-3 years he left for a bigger job in Central NY. The manager did not want anyone whose popularity could mean his replacement by someone he hired.

[RayS]

Harry,

I agree. Bridget should have been investigated more thoroughly. Though I have no evdence I have always believed she was involved after the fact - she was too close to the murder, not to be involved.

. . . and then, of course, there is the unconfirmed story that Bridget returned to Ireland loaded with cash given to her by Lizzie, and purchased a new home for her mum. If I were thirty years younger, I'd purchase a ticket to the Emerald Isle and attempt to verify, or discount, if this event ever occurred . . .wouldn't that be exciting!

Bridget WAS investigated thoroughly (as thoroughly as Kato Kaelin after that murder). There being no evidence against her (or Lizzie) she then became a material witness. Her job w/ the Sheriff was her bond for appearance at the trial. Did she gain by her new job? Some might think so (her appearance at the trial).

The "rumor" of a pay-off to Bridget was true (my surmise). I suggest that there is a paper hidden in Jennings file, that documents a "loan" to Bridget for her return to Ireland. When Bridget returned to America, she would have to pay it back with interest. In effect, Bridget was paid to go away and never return.
But I have no proof for this at this time.

[RayS]

...
Her work duties do not appear to very hard compared to what most maids had to do in those days.
...

And just WHAT work duties did other maids have at that time? What references do you have.
(I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.)

[KT72]

Keep in mind that it was only Lizzie and Emma who called Bridget "Maggie" so if that was the reason they would be more logical targets.

Exactly - like I said in my first post above, I can understand her being enraged with Abby but why not off Lizzie at the same time? Maybe it was just the window-washing thing that made her murderous

And just WHAT work duties did other maids have at that time?

As far as I know, Bridget was responsible for cooking and for cleaning the downstairs areas of the house. The upstairs was taken care of by the family; and Abby also did some things downstairs, i.e. dusting on the murder morning. Lizzie (and presumably Emma) also did their own laundry and ironing. Not sure if Bridget did the marketing; but it's certain Abby did at least some because she mentioned to Lizzie that she was going out to buy something for supper that night.

However, a good many servants in that time were responsible for all of the above duties, while the family did little if any household tasks. I don't know what Bridget's schedule was, but in many places it was the norm to only give your servants Sunday mornings off and that was it.

So yes, in fact it does appear that Bridget had it pretty good - comparatively - at the Bordens'.

[Harry]

Thanks KT72, that's precisely what I meant.

As for washing the windows that day I think Mrs. Churchill said that was a regular routine job that Bridget performed. Nothing unusual. I've always wondered why the kitchen windows were not included.

I guess the Bordens themselves did their own windows upstairs.

[KT72]

As for washing the windows that day I think Mrs. Churchill said that was a regular routine job that Bridget performed. Nothing unusual. I've always wondered why the kitchen windows were not included.

I guess the Bordens themselves did their own windows upstairs.

Right; but even though it was a routine thing, it's not something Bridget would be up to doing after vomiting for 10-15 minutes (if indeed that's what she was doing....).

And, just as an aside: Would they even wash the upstairs windows at all? I don't know what the practice was back then. Maybe only the downstairs windows were habitually washed because of dust from the streets, vehicles going by, etc, which would have primarily affected the street level of the house?

[mbhenty]

Keep in mind that it was only Lizzie and Emma who called Bridget "Maggie" so if that was the reason they would be more logical targets.

Her work duties do not appear to very hard compared to what most maids had to do in those days.

IMHO, Bridget should have been looked into far more closely than she was because I think she knew more than what she told.

Sorry Harry: I'm still sutpid about proceeding here and hit "Report" instead of "Quote". Have no idea what that does. Hope I have not Zapped you? Still trying to figure out how to place a quote in my post with the white background. Dahhh? (What happens when you press "Report"?)

But I just wanted to elaborate a little on your comments.

I always did find Bridget's duties as light. With Abbey running around the house with a dust rag all the time, and considering she did not do any of the bedrooms, I can surmise that her job much easier than most.

I think being called "Maggie" was trivial. It was a slight insult which just verified her place in the household, and I could only imagine that Bridget would accept it and dismiss it, at the most. (Now call me Maggie, and those fighting words. )

Now, I don't totaly dismiss Radins theory. As in many cases, I don't think the police did a very good investigation. They probably became very focused on Lizzie right from the start, ignoring any other possibilities, especially the possibility of a total third party, an unrelated individual, either friend of, or someone such as Brown suggested. The truth, if it could be discovered, would probably shock us all. Like a good, "Who Dun-it."

Oh yes, one more thing. I think Bridget knew a lot, if not the entire truth.

[Audrey]

I wonder if Bridget was just a bit lazy and the Borden household suited her better than previous ones?

[Harry]

Mike, I have no idea what "Report" does. Probably turns me in to Stefani. Forgive me Stef for whatever. Don't beat me.

I noticed that the "Report" button is only on messages posted by others not on your own messages. So I guess it to report the message to the Moderator.

When you hit the quote button it brings up the entire message and inserts it into your message. You can then erase the part you don't want to quote. Make sure you don't erase the beginning {Quote} and ending {/Quote} tags.

Note: In the above example I used the "{ }" symbols instead of the square bracket symbols "[ and ]".

[Kat]

Michael "Reported" Harry!

~~~

Maybe Bridget was sick of being called "Maggie" - which really was an extremely insulting ethnic slur.

--KT72

How do we know this? Is this in Radin?

Someone should really check out that *Bridget thought she was dying and started to make a deathbed confession* story. That whole Library story needs to be investigated- Minnie Green et all, in Montana.
(Is that in Radin?)

Len wants to go to Ireland when he retires, William- to check out Bridget. We should go with him!

Let's see- Lizbeth had a clause in her will that to benefit from her estate her servants named had to have been with her 5 years. Now I don't know why, or why that number of years, but maybe Bridget really didn't stick to jobs as much as most servants, considering this?

[mbhenty]

Thanks Harry, Greatly appreciate the help. You know as I get older my brain, which I call my closet, gets full; and everytime I open the door to place something there, lots of other things fall out and I have trouble retrieving them.
Thanks again Harry.

[Harry]

Bridget's schedule seems to be somewhat flexible and to some degree set by herself. She's asked in the Preliminary (p10)"

"Q. When you saw Mrs. Borden, where did you see her?
A. In the dining room, dusting. She wanted to know if I had anything particular to do that day. I told her no. Did she want anything? Yes, she said she wanted the windows washed. I asked her how. She said on both sides, inside and outside; they were very dirty."

Then on page 25+:

"Q. Why was you not at work getting your dinner at that time?
A. I thought I had time enough to start to get dinner at half past eleven, with the dinner I had to get.
Q. Was it your habit to go up stairs that way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. When I got through with my work down stairs, if I had not anythingelse to do, I always went up stairs, before I started to get dinner, if I had time."

Sounds like the Bordens, at least Abby, were lenient with her. As far as I can see her duties were the cooking, the washing, ironing and folding, occasionally sweeping the front foyer and once or twice a month "washing" the windows.

They apparently liked her as Bridget said they left a lamp on in the kitchen for her when she was out that night. This coming from an Andrew who sat in the dark talking with his wife and Morse that same night before the murders.

[Kat]

Good points, Harry and thanks for the testimony.

That reminds me - Lizzie and Emma did not do their own wash as KT72 said, I don't think.
Lizzie did her own handkerchiefs, and ironed them.
Since I haven't read Radin in a very long time, I don't know if he claims the Borden girls did their own wash...

[Bob Gutowski]

Umm, I'm thinking about the first post, and I have to say that I'VE vomited for 15 minutes. Not continually, but there's the waiting, and the...well, you know what I mean. My point is that there's no way to claim that 15 minutes is excessive for a sick stomach.

The problem I have with Radin is the second murder. Let's go all the way and say that, yes, Bridget/Maggie snapped and let Abby have it. Why wouldn't she have high-tailed it out of there? What possible good would killing Mr. Borden do? She could have disappeared into "the Irish Underground" quite easily. Or did the following happen, a very Sherry Chapmanesque exchange:

Maggie: Oh, drat, Miss Lizzie...I flew into a tizzy, and I've killed poor Mrs. B!

Lizzie: Whoopee! I mean, BAD Maggie! BAD!

Maggie: What am I gonna do?

Lizzie: Well (She smiles at the camera), I've got an idea!

[KT72]

How do we know this? Is this in Radin?

No, but I learned it somewhere and am going to dig up some references and post them here.

[KT72]

Hmm, perhaps I confused my terms. This is from the article on Bridget on Wikipedia.com:

"While in the family's employment, Bridget was addressed by Andrew Borden's daughter Lizzie as "Maggie". Borden authority Victoria Lincoln was quoted by essayist Florence King that the use of Maggie may have been forgetfulness; the Borden's previous maid had been named Maggie, or it could have been a courtesy; the name "Bridget" having taken on an "off" stereotype of the typical Irish maid of the era."

I knew I'd read something about one of those names being an insult; I thought it was "Maggie", but according to this it was "Bridget". Forgive me, and no offense intended when I say this - I imagine the intention of an employer insulting an Irish servant in this way was much akin to that of an antebellum Southern planter calling an African slave "boy".

The Wikipedia article continues with Bridget's employment resume:

"Prior to moving to the Bordens' home, Sullivan worked as a scullery maid in Newport, R.I. She then moved to South Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, where she likely joined relatives. In 1888 she returned to Fall River and worked as a cook for Charles Reed, a lawyer who lived in the exclusive "Highlands" neighborhood of the city. In 1889 she moved on to the home of another Highlands resident, Clinton V. S. Remington. Her next job, with the Borden family of 92 Second St., was a step down, as the Bordens had far less money and lived in a less wealthy setting than her two previous employers. The Borden's home, however, was two blocks from the Irish neighborhood, Fourth Street's Corcaigh (Corky) Row, which may have influenced her decision. In her testimony Sullivan denied having connections to the Irish neighborhood, although many of the Irish in that section of the city also originated from the Allihies region of Cork."

Interesting stuff, eh?.................

[william]

Victoria Lincoln was in error. The Borden's previous maid was not named Maggie.

Some years back I had occasion to investigate the name "Maggie." Several sources claimed that this was a common reference to any female Irish menial in their house hold. I contacted several ethnic societies, here and abroad in Ireland and England. According to what I learned there was no foundation to this supposition. Most of my contacts expressed amusement that such a belief existed.

[doug65oh]

Just to interject here: The underlying sources for the Wikipedia article referenced above appear to be these:

Binette, Dennis and Michael Martins, eds. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie Borden: The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893 (Fall River, Mass.: The Fall River Historical Society, 1994), 464.
Burns, Catherine M., "The Irish of Fall River, Massachusetts, 1843-1894: Variations of Irish Ethnicity in an Industrial City," (Unpublished B.A. thesis, University of Massachusetts--Amherst, 1999).
King, Florence. WASP, Where is Thy Sting? Chapter 15, "One WASP's Family, or the Ties That Bind." Stein & Day, 1977. ISBN 0552993778 (1990 Reprint Edition)
O'Dwyer, Riobard, "Who Were My Ancestors? Geneaology (Family Trees) of the Allihies (Copper Mines) Parish, County Cork, Ireland," n.d., n.p.
Located at the Fall River Historical Society.

[Kat]

Diana: You read that *Servants Diary* didn't you? Can you tell us what was her normal workload and if she states how long she stayed with her employer?

[Kat]

BTW: The story of Bridget hating to be called Maggie, I believe, was included in a few of the videos- even the latest one has that as a motive. But I don't recall it being a slur ever.
Harry's right too- it was the girls who used the name so if that was a sore spot, Andrew & Abby could be happily considering their retirement whilst Emma and Lizzie had been slain by the maid.
So maybe the *Maggie* thing was not an issue.

[Audrey]

The authenticity of information found on Wikipedia has been called in to question numerous times.

http://mediachannel.org/blog/node/3121

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles ... 111798.txt

Wikipedia is not an approved source of reference for my children to use in their school work. In fact.. It is on the list of unapproved resources.

[doug65oh]

It has indeed Auds - that's exactly why I went back and dug out the sources referenced in the article.

[KT72]

Sorry, I'm clearly an idiot

[diana]

Diana: You read that *Servants Diary* didn't you? Can you tell us what was her normal workload and if she states how long she stayed with her employer?

Delia Goble stayed with the Dickson family from December 22, 1901 until June 14, 1905 -- so 3 1/2 years. Mr. Dickson was a minister and Delia was 23 when she started working at the manse.

Here are some excerpts from the introduction to the diaries:
"She worked very hard and, although there was some free time during the day, her days were long. An "afternoon off" frequently consisted of one to two hours after three o'clock. She often rose at 6:30 or 7:00 o'clock in the morning and didn't finish her work until 9:00 o'clock in the evening."
"Delia was never invited to join Mrs. D. for a meal in the dining room, even if they were the only two at home. Delia's room was in the attic."

"Running through all of the diaries like something woven into the fabric of each day is the evermore strained relationship existing between the lady of the house and her maid." (But I should point out that Delia's employer was only three years older than she was -- so the relationship between them was probably quite different than that of Abby and Bridget.)

And this next part is how I imagine Bridget functioned in the Borden house.
"Delia's antennae were always in good working condition so every word, movement, glance, sound or suspicion were noted by Delia. She credited her "instinct" (though intuition might have been a better work) for being able to sense when company was coming."



The following is a portion of Delia's diary entry for Sunday 13, July 1902.

"... they did not all get down to breakfast till half past 8 & through till after 9. So that it was 10 1/2 before I got my work done & therefore I could not go to church ... I wish company would have a little consideration for the girl in the kitchen & not poke & fuss & primp before the glass in their own room & keep the meals waiting so that the work-girl can never get to church, or else offer to help with the dishes which I thing they could do without degrading themselves a particle ... I'm sure I should offer to do it if I were in their place, they ought to know that their being there makes the work all the harder for me & I do not get any extra wages for it either. ... I never can get to sleep before all the rest go to bed as they either sing or laugh & carry on enough to raise the dead & they do not go to bed till 11 & 12. They they can lie abed till 8 the next morning while I get up at 6 1/2 & begin breakfast. I guess anyone reading this would think I am a perfect crank but I get spells of being very blue sometimes & having no one to tell my troubles to. I have to put it down on paper to relieve my feelings. I hope no one will ever see this but perhaps when they do I shall be only a memory. (A thing of the past.)"

Source: The Diaries of Adelia Goble: A Maid's View of Point Pleasant, NJ 1902-1905. (Published by the Ocean County Historical Society 2000)

[Harry]

Sorry, I'm clearly an idiot

Heavens NO, KT72, you are not. Thanks for starting the thread in the first place.

After all, this is a discussion forum and we all learn from each other.

[Kat]

Thank you Diana! That was extremely helpful!
I guess Bridget was lucky to have employers who were early to bed and didn't entertain often. But that 2 separate meal situation in the Borden household where the girls ate apart from the elder folk might have been a bone of contention. I hadn't really thought about that. I doubt Lizzie ate much breakfast, and wonder what Emma had. Maybe they were considerate enough to keep breakfast at least to cookies and coffee.
Very interesting!

KT72- it's a good topic.
Can you provide the link to the Wikipedia source so I can take a look at it and report back? Thanks!

[theebmonique]

KT you are not an idiot. Auds and Doug are right though about Wiki not always being reliable for their information. As a teacher, I know many students at the school where I teach like to use Wikipedia as a resource...but they are beginning to realize it does not always contain the most accurate information. Some people really like using it, but I probably wouldn't use it much without verifying the information it provides, like what Doug did (Thanks Doug !)...but then that kind of defeats the purpose of using it to begin with doesn't it ?


Tracy...

[Kat]

Was this a look-up of the name *Bridget Sullivan* or was it a look-up on the Borden case?
Because members here worked on that site to fix it up and edit it after it was first submitted by someone- I don't know who first submitted it.
It may be pretty good after all- that's why I would like the exact URL please?

[theebmonique]

Mike, I have no idea what "Report" does. Probably turns me in to Stefani. Forgive me Stef for whatever. Don't beat me.

I noticed that the "Report" button is only on messages posted by others not on your own messages. So I guess it to report the message to the Moderator.

When you hit the quote button it brings up the entire message and inserts it into your message. You can then erase the part you don't want to quote. Make sure you don't erase the beginning {Quote} and ending {/Quote} tags.

Note: In the above example I used the "{ }" symbols instead of the square bracket symbols "[ and ]".

I doubt you're in trouble Harry...but if need be...I will post your bail. OR, I can have the finest of meals delivered to you every day if the bail thing doesn't work.


Tracy...

[doug65oh]

The url - which corresponds to the original Wikipedia reference above is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridget_Sullivan.

[Kat]

Thanks! No, we didn't work on that page after all.
It's not too bad tho.

I do quick lookups on Wikipedia but I usually check whatever I might want to use with another source or 2.
It is good for that.
I'd be doing that anyway.

[mbhenty]

Sorry again Harry.

I just seen "Report" and thought, "wonder what this does," and I pressed it. dah!

I remember working in this old folks home in New Bedford one day. I was lost in the building and came to this door which said "not an exit" in big red words. So, what did I do?"

Once again, " I wounder where this goes?"

I opened the door and the fire alarm went off in this huge building. Talk about loud. There was old people everywhere. Some even chased me down the hallway, screaming like I was robbing a bank.

I didn't know what to do, suddenly I found myself running down the hallway, tools falling from my tool belt and all over the floor, old people screaming, "Fire, fire, others still, stop that man, Stop him.! I ran into my truck and drove a block away, got a coffee, then returned to the scene of the crime, and waved to the 7 to 10 fire engines. I felt so small, I could just about see over the steering wheel.

[Harry]

"theebmonique @ Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:24 am

I doubt you're in trouble Harry...but if need be...I will post your bail. OR, I can have the finest of meals delivered to you every day if the bail thing doesn't work.

Tracy...

How kind. I'd like Tripe with Orange Sherbert for dessert. Definitely no mutton.

[KT72]

*deep breath* Okay, this whole thing has been discussed by all you knowledgeable folks in The Hatchet online; here's the link:

http://www.hatchetonline.com/Archive040 ... dunnit.htm

The "Maggie" debate starts at #26 and goes for quite a stretch.

I do know this first-hand - Irish girls (not maids necessarily, but just young girls) are still called "Colleens" as a generic term. I used to be a tour guide, and one day I heard a co-worker say, "There were two very nice Irish colleens on my tour." I'm sure this comes from the Irish Gaelic word "cailin" which literally does mean "girl".

I'm just wondering if perhaps a similar practice was followed, if on a small scale, among certain American classes/families in the 19th century........

[Angel]

Bridget's schedule seems to be somewhat flexible and to some degree set by herself. She's asked in the Preliminary (p10)"
Sounds like the Bordens, at least Abby, were lenient with her. As far as I can see her duties were the cooking, the washing, ironing and folding, occasionally sweeping the front foyer and once or twice a month "washing" the windows.

They apparently liked her as Bridget said they left a lamp on in the kitchen for her when she was out that night. This coming from an Andrew who sat in the dark talking with his wife and Morse that same night before the murders.

Did people like the Bordens routinely employ maids? They had a modestly sized house with three grown women living there who probably would have have been able to do the work themselves, and a miserly guy who was looking for any way to save a buck, so having a maid may have been unnecessary, unless she was there for some other purpose. Do you think she was given the title "maid" to cover up family secrets and was really there to be a companion to Lizzie just to keep an eye on an emotionally labile daughter? If Lizzie was more unstable than we knew about they may have needed extra help with her. It does look as though Bridget's duties were very light when compared to other maids in that day. And after having been there for a while she may have bonded enough with Lizzie to want to protect her when she was accused of the crime. Just a thought.