Witness Statements and the Clock

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:17 pm

In The Witness Statements, Lizzie said she was gone a half hour from the house, after Andrew came home, and Bridget went upstairs.
Bridget says she herself went upstairs for 10 minutes, and had left Lizzie ironing in the dining room. Then Bridget adjusted her time upstairs to 10 or 15 minutes.

That is a 15 minute difference in their statements. Meaning, someone is unaccounted for for 15 minutes.
One or the other could be doing anything in that 15 minutes.

Why didn't this discrepancy appear more important to the police?

Also, If Lizzie just dropped what she was ironing to go outside- at this important time in her whole life- she either had to know to leave or was informed to leave or did not leave at all. Any way it looks- she knew what was going on- she had to.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:57 pm

You're right, Kat.

The police probably did think the time discrepancy was important, along with all the other inconsistencies in her stories. They did arrest her after all. Unfortunately, with no testimony of Lizzie's allowed at the trial, there was really no way the prosecution could point out the holes in her story and the way her story evolved over time.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:02 pm

I think their (Lizzie's and Bridget's) times were too vague to be called exact. So if there was a gap there, it was probably pretty much chalked up to well, they didn't have a watch on. And back then, times weren't real exact. Some clocks would say something a bit off from others.

I know I've read something somewhere where Lizzie's talking to a cop. And she starts rattling off her barn story, saying she was only out there like 15 minutes, and the cop cautions her and tells her she'd better be more generous on her time estimates, and then she changes it to a half an hour.

I thought it was Harrington in the Witness Statements, but I don't see it in there. Maybe it's in one of the other source documents. Does anyone recall that?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:10 am

Actually she reduced her time out of the house. Lizzie started at 1/2 an hour and later insisted she had said 20 minutes.

What this means to me, I think, is that Bridget has to be implicated.
15 minutes is half the time allotted. What I mean is it's doubled amount is the time Lizzie says she's away. That can't be a clock. We all have a time sense and can judge the difference between 30 minutes and 15 minutes.

That imaginary 15 minutes added to Bridget's 15 makes a half hour in which, if Lizzie killed Andrew alone, Bridget could help clean up. It's plenty of time to hide a weapon and get things straightened.

Maybe after Andrew's death, Bridget realized Abby was dead. Maybe Lizzie sent her up to put the guest room to rights before sending Bridget out looking for Dr. Bowen.

We wonder why the room is not messed up- like there was no stuggle- maybe that was something decided later-to clean it up?
But why?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:41 pm

You'd think if there was time, a person would mess the place up to try to make it look like an intruder. Especially when Lizzie led people to believe, at first, that Abby died very close in time to Andrew. Bowen even believed it for a bit, telling people she had possibly fainted.

I'm beginning to wonder if Lizzie really knew a time difference could prove inheritence rights.
Why would she say *I thought I heard her come in?*

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:26 pm

You know, Kat, that report by Lizzie, "I thought I heard her come in," struck me immediately as suspect. Now I am wondering, if that were so, how could Abby have come in? Why didn't people aske Lizzie, "What did you hear that made you think Abby was coming in?" "Did you hear someone opening or closing a door? If so, which door? Weren't both of the doors locked during the time Lizzie would have heard Abby come in? And isn't it known that Abby did not carry keys to the house, or did she? Interesting that more was not made of Lizzie's claim, unless they just dismissed it as hogwash.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:40 pm

Kat:

what's your view on the accuracy of the city hall clock? how would it compare to the police one used by allen?

James Mather, Trial:

Q. Now will you tell me what time it was when Mr. Borden went away from that store?
A. About twenty minutes of eleven.
Q. Did you consult any time-piece at or about the time he went away?
A. I looked at the City Hall clock.

at this point borden is quite near his house? so by mather's clock, put borden into house very near 10:45. (i discounted kelly, because of the unreliable clock issue.)

Bridget, Trial:

Q. Have you any idea what time it was when Mr. Borden came into the house?
A. I cannot fix the time, but I think by my time then, the work I did, it must have been around half past ten.
Q. And when you got up; there it was three or four minutes before eleven? (i'm not sure if there is error in this question or if it that was literally said)
A. Yes, sir.

there's a 15-min difference right there -- but is that a "which clock" issue?

bridget said she heard the 11 oclock city hall strike after she was upstairs. (alice acknowledges hearing the city hall hour herself before bridget arrived)

i can't "conclude" -- i'm just chopping at it.

to go by bridget -- the murder must occur right at 11 o'clock or a little after.

by lizzie -- she wants a little more time somehow, by her account bridget lets him in and vanishes, she and father are in sitting room, a few words exchanged, he is on sofa, and right out she goes. in this scenario bridget's window washing is not a factor. so if lizzie has from ten minutes till until ten minutes after -- that is 20 minutes -- and that seems maximum. there should not be that much time available. bridget's 15 seems more accurate.

Officer Allen, Trial:

Q. Where were you between eleven and quarter past eleven?
A. Quarter past eleven the marshall came to me and said there was a row up on Second Street.
Q. How far is it from the station or how many minutes walk up to it?
A. Four minutes it took me, because I have tried it since.

if bridget runs downstairs at 10 after........and on and on, etc.......and Allen knows about it at 15 min after.....?? or is allen's clock very different from city hall clock? (that might explain some of this)

if i understand what you're suggesting......there might be a problem giving lizzie as long as 30 minutes after the murder -- even if it can be done with time, clock, etc.........because that much time is pushing it in terms of the "just killed" condition of the body seen by everyone who comes in.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:48 pm

Oh, Robert, have I gone on and on about THAT! I find it one of Lizzie's most egregious lies, designed to get that body found, now!

It's a pity, almost, that people aren't as cynical as they are now. I can't imagine anyone not quizzing her more closely these days if she made such a vague, odd pronouncement.

"But I don't know but that she is dead, too, for I thought I heard her..." Oh, spare me, Lizzie, you little faux-psychic, you! She is here, and she is dead!

Robert Harry · Post by **Robert Harry** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:05 pm

Which makes me believe, Bob, that they "knew" she was guilty but could not (lack of hard evidence) or would not (propriety) condemn her. When you think of it, it really is an odd and quite suspect thing to say!!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:34 pm

Haulover @ Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:40 pm wrote:Kat, what's your view on the accuracy of the city hall clock? how would it compare to the police one used by allen?

James Mather, Trial:

Q. Now will you tell me what time it was when Mr. Borden went away from that store?
A. About twenty minutes of eleven.
Q. Did you consult any time-piece at or about the time he went away?
A. I looked at the City Hall clock.

It has always been assumed that the City Hall clock was accurate. I'm not all that sure but I have no evidence either way. To complicate it even further there was four city hall clocks not one, one on each side of the steeple. Were they synchronized? Mather would have seen either 1 or 2 faces depending on his angle.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:02 pm

harry:

i hadn't even thought of that. then further, what does that say about the audible striking of the hour?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:10 am

Thanks for all the testimony.
Personally, I don't expect that anyone's clock matched anyone elses. I have a usual idea of an estimated time that Andrew returned. I think it was between 10:40 and 10:45 a.m.- and maybe more like 10:40.
If Lizzie didn't help Andrew in the sitting room or ask for her mail, and Bridget wasn't washing the interior windows at all, but they were lying in wait, or someone was lying in wait- and Andrew had been manuevered onto the couch to relax much earlier (Lizzie said he didn't go upstairs), then the murder could happen by 10:45 or 10:50. It depends on whether we believe what these girls tell us- if we disregard their story, anything could have happened after the front door closed behind Mr. Borden.
???
......
And yes, the front door was supposedly locked when Lizzie says she thought she had heard Abby had come in and Jennings notes say that by Tuesday of that week Mrs. Borden no longer had a key to the front door. Meanwhile, isn't Lizzie at the side door?
I wonder how Jennings reconciled this info with his defense of Lizzie and his personal feelings?

......
By the way- once Andrew was found dead, any estimates as to how long it took to find Abby's body?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:49 am

By the way- once Andrew was found dead, any estimates as to how long it took to find Abby's body?

Thats a really good question, Kat. Kent has the time Lizzie calls Bridget down to be about 11:08.

From Dr. Bowen's Trial testimony, he estimates that he got to the Borden house between 11:15 and 11:30. He has to have conversation, view Andrew's body, have more conversation and see Officer Allen come in before he leaves for the telegraph office. He has to go to the telegraph office, have conversation and then place the telegraph and go back. Somewhere in that time Abby's body was discovered.

From Mrs. Churchill's Trial testimony, she states that she left at about 12:00, she had to go up with Bridget and find Abby and tell Dr. Bowen of it.

So, I'm thinking rough guesstimate to be about 45 to 50 minutes to find Abby's body.

Alice · Post by **Alice** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:03 am

I apologize if this is old news to everyone, but it occurred to me a couple of days ago that Bridget may never have gone upstairs for a nap at all. That would give more time for the murder to take place.
And I looked at the picture of Andrew's body again and it looks to me like his fists are clenched. What, if anything, could that mean?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:27 am

Dr. Bowen's trial testimony (page 305+) is interesting about the note and whether Lizzie said (actually didn't say) whether she heard somebody come in:

"Q. Upon your return from the telegraph station, tell us what was said and done?
A. Up to that time there had been nothing said about Mrs. Borden. Directly after I took the address there was something said.
Q. Before you went to the telegraph office?
A. Before I went, yes, sir.
Q. That is what I intended to get at.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. State what was said before you went to the telegraph office?
A. The question was asked, "Where is Mrs. Borden?" The inquiry was made, "Where is Mrs. Borden." The answer I received was that---
Q. From whom?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden, I think: I am not certain about that.
Q. Tell us the answer, Doctor and speak so the jurymen can hear you without effort.
A. The answer was that Mrs. Borden had received a note that morning to visit a sick friend, and had gone out.
Q. Was anything else said in that connection by the prisoner in reference to Mrs. Borden going out, or in reference to the note?
A. I don't think of anything, no, sir.

So Lizzie must have heard this person come in after Bowen left to send the telegram. According to Rebello (page 82) the telegram is stamped 11:32. I think there was some confusion over exactly what that time meant.

I think the note as well as her hearing somebody come in are two of Lizzie's quite clever ruses. The note to explain Abby's absence and the hearing somebody to get them to find Abby's body.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:59 am

Harry, just a point on the City Hall Clock. It did not have four clocks, it had one clock with four faces. This type of clock, like we have in Fairhaven's Town Hall and in our high school, has a single clock mechanism attached to four shafts which attach to the clock hands on the four faces. So the faces cannot be out of sync with one another.

The trouble with the time issue is that almost nobody's clocks every match anyone elses, even today. (My posting time will be a minute or so off from the time my computer monitor says. My monitor doesn't match my watch. None of them match the clock on the Town Hall across the street.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:33 pm

I understand your point Chris, but these are individual faces and mechanical. They have the same source of power but that does not mean each face mechanism works properly. If a part on one face is worn the result might be a different time.

I did a little search on Google for tower clocks and found this paragraph:

"Toward its later days, the clock evidently developed a mind of its own with regard to what time it actually was. Reliable witnesses recall that each face told a slightly different time, a fact put to good use as an alibi for tardy jurors."

This was an 1889 clock in Oregon. http://www.co.umatilla.or.us/clock.htm

Now, I am not saying the Fall River clock was that way but it cannot be totally ruled out as apparently there was no effort to determine if it was. At least none that we know of.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:43 pm

Alice, if Bridget didn't go upstairs- that might mean she was involved in the clean-up or cover-up, are you agreeing?

..........
Lizzie is supposedly going upstairs and downstairs and we wonder why she didn't see the body of Abby? Well, Lizzie said the door was closed.
Who closed it?
And who opened it- because when Bridget and Adelaide went up there the door was open.
When Lizzie said, *I thought I heard her come in*, maybe that was to explain why that door was open later when the ladies went up?
......

I'm not so sure about 50 minutes being the time between the finding of the bodies. Maybe we can make a short time-line with testimony.
Anyway, tho, the longer it took to find Abby while everyone was messing around with Andrew, couldn't that make Abby look dead much longer- like that 90 minutes, when maybe it wasn't such a long time difference like Masterton theorizes?

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:19 pm

"faux-psychic" chick our Lizzie, I like that Bob!
This is all good research on time-lines which to me
indicates there was someone else in that house that
was kept secret. The Butcher of course! Uncle John's friend or Lizzie's "boyfriend" and his meat packing family? Interesting Alice about Bridget maybe did not go up for a nap!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:37 pm

I'm not so sure about 50 minutes being the time between the finding of the bodies. Maybe we can make a short time-line with testimony.

I'm game, though looking back through testimony, I see I may have been too generous with my guestimate. I'll have to do it in some installments if thats okay?

It is 11:00 o'clock, by Lizzie's Inquest testimony she is still out back in the barn. From Bridget's Preliminary testimony, Bridget states that she is up in her room in the attic, lying on her bed.

Lizzie's Inquest testimony never states that she heard the City Hall clock, we do not know what time she came into the house. From Lizzie's Inquest testimony, pg 69:

Q. How long was your father in the house before you found him killed?
A. I don't know exactly, because I went out to the barn. I don't know what time he came home. I don't think he had been home more than fifteen or twenty minutes; I am not sure.

11:05-Lizzie enters the house. For sake of argument, we will assume that Lizzie came in shortly after the clock struck the hour, say 11:05.

Page 77:

Q. After you came down from the barn, what did you do then?
A. Came into the kitchen.

Q. What did you do then?
A. I went into the dining room and laid down my hat.

Q. What did you do then?
A. Opened the sitting room door, and went into the sitting room, or pushed it open; it was not latched.

Q. What did you do then?
A. I found my father, and rushed to the foot of the stairs.

11:06-Andrew's body is discovered. Lizzie's walk from the side door through the dining room, taking out a hatpin and removing her hat, placing it on the table and then going through the sitting room door would take about a minute or so, which puts us at 11:06.

11:07-Lizzie arrives at foot of back stairs to yell up to Bridget. Perhaps standing in the sitting room in a few moments of shock upon "discovering" her father's dead body and then turning and running back through the dining room, through the kitchen, down the side hall to the back stairs puts us at about 11:07.

Page 78 Inquest:

Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.

11:07-Lizzie "hollos" up the back stairs for Bridget.

To be continued.......

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:16 pm

Harry, I'll accept the fact that the time shown on the clock faces can be different from one another.

I really think that the minute by minute time-lines are only as helpful as the corresponding testimony that's used to create them.

From the time John Morse left the house in the morning (if, in fact he did) to the time Mrs. Churchill came over after eleven, we really have no idea what went on inside that house. There were four people we know of in and out of the house during that time. Of those four, two survived the morning and two did not. Bridget's and Lizzie's testimonies don't match on a number of points and we have, of course, no testimony from Abby and Andrew. . .

I don't think that within the two whole hours between 9 o'clock and 11 o'clock, determining whether Bridget is supposed to have come downstairs at 11:03 or 11:06 is going to make much difference.

Even so, I love reading time-lines, so I'm looking forward to the continuation of Susan's.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:30 pm

Lets say he is dead by 11:05.
We can start our clock ticking from that point until Abby is found. She's found while Bowen is gone to send the telegram.
Is it about 11:35?
It's before 11:45, because Morse shows up soon around that time.

That's 30 minutes- even that's longer than I thought.
There is a possibility that after 15 minutes all pooled blood looks the same.

Does Lizzie want the body found while Bopwen is away? So that is even longer before a medic see's it? After all, Lizzie sent Bowen away before Anybody knew about Abby.

BTW: Just straight info here- Lizzie said she put down her hat in the dining room, but she doesn't say on the table nor anything about a pin. It makes a vivid mental picture tho!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:37 am

Kat, I don't recall where I read that info before, if its fact or from one of the authors that the telegram is clocked in at 11:30 or 11:35? Anyhoo, after Dr. Bowen sends the telegram, he leaves the telegraph office and goes to Baker's drug store and speaks with a Mr. Samuel Flint for a few moments. ( Maybe he also purchased the Bromo-Caffeine for Lizzie at the time? Or, did he carry it on his person? ) And then he went back to the Borden's house.

This is where I really start to wonder about the times of arrivals for people. How many minutes time do we tack onto that 11:30 or 11:35 for Dr. Bowen's additional trip and then the travel time back to the Borden home? My point being that Mrs. Churchill and Bridget had to find Abby before he got back, but, its still a guestimate as to what time he got there exactly.

John Morse said that he thought he arrived at the Borden home at quarter of twelve, he didn't know exactly. And if he got there at 11:45 and went in the back yard and picked up pears and ate one, how many minutes do we tack onto his time before he actually enters the house and sees Dr. Bowen?

Thats where my time dilemma comes from.

I found a site where you have to become a member, but, it looks like they have all the anwers to any blood questions we might have. Might be worth a look?

http://www.forensicnetbase.com/ejournal ... asp?id=553

Yes, Lizzie never said she laid her hat on the table or took out a hatpin, but, I was trying to put myself in her shoes as I was coming in. I don't think she would lay the hat on the lounge as it could be sat on by someone? There may have been a sideboard or buffet in the dining room, that could have been a possible place to set down a hat? I think most of the hats of the time period required a hatpin to hold it on, it may have been so commonplace as not to be mentioned.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:22 pm

Thanks, Susan.
It was suggested that Dr. Bowen go and find the time of the telegram and so he did.
By trial, he had the time as 11:32.

Trial
Bowen
321
Q. Have you subsequently ascertained at what time you sent this telegram?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What time was it?
A. 11.32

Q. 11.32?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you drove immediately back?
A. Yes, sir. Stopping at Mr. Baker's store.

Q. I understand. I didn't mean to assume that you passed by there after you said

Page 322

that you drove back, stopping at Mr. Baker's drug store. In your opinion, it took you how many minutes to drive back?
A. Not more than two minutes.

Q. Not more than two minutes. Then in round numbers it is safe to say you arrived back at the Borden house for your second visit, the visit at which you first saw Mrs. Borden, was about 11.35, isn't it?
A. I should say I spent four or five minutes in Mr. Baker's store.

Q. Then it would be 11.40 perhaps that you got back to the house?
A. Yes, sir.
.....

11:40 sounds about right.
That would mean Andrew had by then been dead about 30 minutes and Abby about 20 minutes if she had just come in while everyone was out?

Lubinsky says he saw a hatless woman outside, in case anyone believes him.

Alice · Post by **Alice** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:30 pm

Maybe that's why Lizzie mentions her hat. She saw Lubinsky and knew he'd seen her-hatless.

Yes, Kat, that is what I was getting at about Bridget. That she could have been, at least, an accessory after the fact.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:50 pm

It's hard to figure out the purpose of the hat.
Some believe Lizzie was ready to leave the premises and dressed accordingly (I think this is a Lincoln-ism?) and that would involve a hat.
But if we think about Lizzie loitering in her own back yard (her first story) would she have taken a hat?
And how would that effect what Lubinsky says he saw?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:25 pm

It was suggested that Dr. Bowen go and find the time of the telegram and so he did.
By trial, he had the time as 11:32.

Thanks so much for finding that, Kat! That really helped me out, gives us more of a timeline to work with.

Hows this for a possibility, Lizzie kills Andrew and runs out back to the privy thats in the barn, throws the hatchet down in there (Really, who would go and dig in there?) and then comes back to the side door and is spotted by Lubinsky. Personally, I've always found that hat story as an added touch by Lizzie. To me, Hat=going out somewhere in public, not just the backyard and barn.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:04 pm

i can't tell where the theory that abby was killed later is going -- or even if that is exactly it, i'm open -- but i recently collected blood evidence testimony on the condition of the bodies by witnesses. NOTE OF EXPLANATION: i did not include the Dr. Dedrick (his time of arrival sounds like it might be a mistake -- 2 pm -- or something may be wrong, it's pg 832 Trial). i also left out Dolan -- his testimony more familiar than some of the others i compiled. and also it was that i scribbled this down at work by way of a search for the word, "blood" -- and i had limited time. but otherwise i think i got the main entries on the partcular question about the condition of the bodies, mainly as relates to blood. ALL of this is from Trial and seems pertinent here. most of us seem to like having topic-related testimony compiled in one place.

_____________________

Wixon, deputy sheriff
Q. How did its thickness and clotting compare with that of Mr. Borden?
A. Well, I say, I didn't see any thick blood on Mr. Borden at all, but this, it seemed -- well, it looked as though it was thick. I didn't test it. It looked as though there was considerable on the floor and it had thickened up. [Mrs. Borden]

Fleet, policeman
Q. What was the color of the blood about Mr. Borden's head?
A. More of a reddish color and much thinner.

Harrington, police patrolman
Q. Do you know what time you got there?
A. Between fifteen minutes and twenty minutes past twelve.
Q. Is that by your judgment or did you consult a timepiece?
A. Judgment. I was led so by the time the car arrived at City Hall.
Q. What time did the car arrive at City Hall?
A. It was what was known as quarter past twelve car.
Q. To arrive there?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. On arriving there you walked, I suppose, from there to the Borden house?
A. I did not go to the City Hall. I stopped at the corner of Second and Rodman Streets and walked down Second to the house.
........
Q. Did you notice anything with reference to the condition of that blood? If you did tell us. [in reference to Mr. Borden]
A. Yes, sir. There was some of it dark as though it was from the veins, and there was more of it very bright, of an artery hue.
[i'm not sure about his use of "vein" vs. "artery" -- unless he's talking about "stains" as opposed to "pools," i don't know]
Q. At that time can you tell us anything with reference to its thickness; did you observe anything?
A. Yes, sir; it was quite fresh, and as I stood there, or just as I got there and took this sheet, there was a small drop trickled down the side of the face.
Q. Did you observe anything with reference to the condition of the blood on or about Mrs. Borden's head?
A. Nothing more, sir, than it was quite dark.
[andrew dead about 1 hr here?]

Doherty, police captain
Q. Do you know the time when the marshal made any communication to you with reference to Second Street? Did you observe the time?
A. I observed the time about seven or eight minutes before he spoke to me.
Q. When had you last observed the time before the talk with the marshal?
A. 11:25.
[he was told about 11:35?]
Q. Where were you then and what did you look at?
A. I was on the corner of Bedford and Second Street, City Hall clock.
[city hall time again........occurs to me it might be interesting to somehow "track" all city hall clock reports]
[he says he walked rapidly and finally ran]
Q. Well, tell us what you observed with reference to it? [Mr. Borden]
A. Well, the blood was fresh, in my estimation. I think it was fresh, what I saw.
[he observes Mr. Borden about 11:40?]
Q. Did you observe anything with reference to the blood? [Mrs. Borden}
A. Yes, sir. It seemed to be hard, seemed as if it had been there some time.

Mullaly, police
Q. As to any difference of appearance; did you make any observation at all in that respect, Mr. Mullaly?
A. It looked rather thick and clotted.
Q. That refers to which body?
A. To Mrs. Borden.

Pettee, former occupant of 92 St. house (lived upstairs)
Q. Did you have any occasion on the fourth of August of last year, in the morning, to pass the Borden house?
A. I did.
Q. About what time?
A. Between 9 and 10.
Q. Did you see anyone, any one of the inmates [quite appropriate word?] of the house, about there?
A. I did not.
Q. Perhaps my word was misleading. Did you see either the servant or anybody who lived in the house?
A. Not when I went down; no, sir.
Q. Did you at any time in the morning see Bridget anywhere?
A. I did.
Q. About what time?
A. I should think about ten o'clock.
Q. What was she then doing?
A. She stood in the front of the house, nearly opposite the front door.
Q. Did she appear to have anything with her, any implements of any kind?
A. Well, I saw the pail and dipper and brush. I thought was had been washing windows.
Q. Was she standing at the time you saw her, or moving?
A. She was stationary.
Q. Talking with anyone, or no?
A. No, sir.
Q. When you got there, who was there, Mr. Pettee?
A. I saw Mrs. Churchill and Bridget, Frank Wixon and Dr. Bowen. I may have seen others; I don't remember of others.
Q. Had a crowd collected at that time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Outside in the yard?
A. No, sir. There was nobody outside at all.
[does something here shed any light on morse's report about absence of a crowd?]
Q. Now will you tell us anything that you observed with reference to Mr. Borden's body, or the blood upon it?
A. Well, I noticed the position that he laid in. He was lying on his right side with the left side exposed. His feet were crossed, and one of them rested on the floor. I noticed the condition of his head -- the condition of the blood that came from it.
Q. Now state carefully, if you please, Mr. Pettee.
A. It seemed to me that the blood was quite fresh. I think that I could detect movement in the blood as it passed from his head down under his collar. I don't know that I could explain it any better than I have.
[this paints a picture of sorts though for me.......i guess this was before morse got there?]
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Then I inquired of Dr. Bowen if Mrs. Borden was dead too, and he said she was.....................As soon as my hand touched her head I noticed that the hair was dry, that it was matted, that it seemed to be very rough on the palm of my hand, and that there was no moisture adhered to my hand when I took it away.

_________________________________

please point out any errors and/or add to it -- i took this down fast.

speaking of which, i questioned myself about "time" today -- i did not plan but "noted" something. coming home from work, i stopped at a store near my house, and while in there ( as i paid at the counter) i noticed their clock said 5:30 exactly. i got home and and adjusted the thermostat, put something in the refrigerator, washed my hands, and got a drink of water. (and i move quickly--i would say more quickly than most people). i took the glass to the living room and sat down and just then noticed my clock said 6:00. it surprised me that as much as 30 minutes had passed. this stopping-by-the-store is a habit of mine, and i've never timed it by the clock -- but i had the "sense" that it was more like 15 minutes as opposed to 30. could be these two clocks are different or i could have forgot some minor thing along the way that held me up. i don't know. "that has always been a mystery."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:07 pm

Thanks for collecting blood evidence as witnessed.

There might be some substance to a theory that Abby was killed more contemorary in time to Andrew, as Bowen espoused it, and authors who have good instincts have tried to put forward such a scenario. I think they like the note and so they try to explain it this way. But I'm thinking of Dr. Masterton specifically. It's a big enough contention to at least kick around, I think.
.........

Again back to the *I thought I heard her come in* statement, de Mille says that if anyone other than Lizzie killed Abby they would have shut that guest room door because the daughter of the house was destined to traipse up and down those front stairs that morning. Lizzie didn't need to shut the door because she was the only one in the house to go up there (or expected to go up there- except Abby- but she was dead).

Lizzie says the door was closed and yet her laughter up the stairs has been attributed to Abby's body being within her sight when Andrew was let in.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:34 pm

Yes, thanks for all your work, Haulover!

So by all counts, Abby's blood was thickened and dry while Andrew's was wet and still running. I'm curious as to how this was explained by the author's who have the idea that Abby was killed closer in time to Andrew?

I always wonder about that statement of Lizzie's about the guest room door being closed earlier. If they didn't want Abby's body discovered, why would they then leave it open later? All we have is Lizzie's word that it was closed ever.

Could it be possible that Lizzie was in the dress closet over the stairs when she laughed? She could hear all and be heard, but not be seen from that angle.

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:55 pm

so if someone is reading deMille or Lincoln or whoever, that is the bent. Or Arnold (remember
Rays)

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:51 pm

could you state the masterton theory (in a nutshell)? i understand there is some explanation as to why people would think abby had been killed earlier--but there is something in the method of the murder that explains how it was she was actually killed later? (i may have this all wrong, i haven't read it myself. i'm open to any theory, because even if it's wrong, it might in its process "let out" a clue. i'm wondering more about "thinking" than "evidence" -- if that makes any sense.)

***Again back to the *I thought I heard her come in* statement, de Mille says that if anyone other than Lizzie killed Abby they would have shut that guest room door because the daughter of the house was destined to traipse up and down those front stairs that morning. Lizzie didn't need to shut the door because she was the only one in the house to go up there (or expected to go up there- except Abby- but she was dead). ***

i've thought about this and imagined if lizzie did go to the barn during abby's murder, as opposed to andrews - -which would explain how it could have escaped her -- and seeing the door closed, thought, "well, she finished and apparently has left the house." then i presume the murderer later opened it. (i say this because that's basically the only way i can see that lizzie might not have known about abby's murder until discovering her father, and then put it together and realized that abby was also probably dead.

but back to the "i thought i heard her come in": the first time i read this, i remember thinking of this in as plausible a context as possible -- and what i thought, what i "provided" lizzie with was a real possibility. notice lizzie did not say WHEN she thought she heard her come in. this could work with the medical evidence if she had meant to say this: "i thought i heard her come in earlier this morning, after i thought she had left, and afterwards i thought nothing of it as i busied myself around the house -- but now that i think of it, i don't remember seeing or hearing her afterwards -- and in light of father's dead body, i'm worried that she might have also been killed. i assumed she went up to her room, but now that i think of it i wonder if the murderer was not already in the house, and she is dead as well." i considered this as being the only plausible explanation for the remark.

if lizzie was saying, "i heard her just then" -- she has created an impossible scenario -- for it is impossible for a murderer upstairs to have passed by her without her seeing. and it is less likely for the murderer to escape the house without being seen since attention is now being focused on the house. unless the murderer vanishes or jumps from a second story window. it is insensible -- YET it is part-in-parcel with her whole attitude in her inquest -- that physical realities don't pertain to her, somehow. this would be just like abby and bridget both conveniently vanishing from her watch.

obviously, the reasoning i had considered giving lizzie credit for would have become complicated and invited more questions.

but it says something about lizzie's thinking in terms of its being oddly limited. it invites discovery (by the women, particularly) that will expose the full extent of the crime but it is ODDLY APATHETIC about all the other questions that will naturally lead questioners back to lizzie herself. it makes no sense that she was this short-sighted. was she being irrational, or did she truly regard these murders as an event that was remote from herself personally? was there a naive presumption on her part that she would never be suspected or seriously questioned? i guess the more important question here is whether it is true that she really is "disconnected" from the reality of the murders -- meaning that someone else did it -- or she is experiencing a "nonreality" in her guilt?

susan, i have a vague memory of one of the witnesses saying something about the position of the door.....did someone mention it was partially open, or it was not all the way back to the wall? i may be wrong. do you remember your noticing that lizzie said she "pushed open" a door? one time i wondered if she pushed open the guest room door. the door from the dining room to the sitting room would not have pushed into it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:43 pm

The pushed-open door was Lizzie describing her finding of Andrew by opening the dining room door into the sitting room. *It was not latched*. It never made sense to me, tho some believe it has been explained.

Here is Lizzie's later statement on the question of whether she even said she thought she heard Abby come in:
Inquest
Lizzie
78
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.

--Diana or Harry can please fill you in on Masterton?
He was the celebrated speaker this past August in Fall River.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:06 am

Witness Statements
Mrs. Churchill, 2nd Interview, Monday, Aug. 8:

"Lizzie requested the Doctor to send a telegram to her sister Emma, but not to tell her the facts, for the lady whom she is staying with, is old and feeble, and may be disturbed.
Lizzie then said I wish somebody would go up stairs and try to find Mrs. Borden. So Bridget and I started. I think she led the way. We went up the front stairs, but I only went far enough to clear my eyes above the second floor. The door to the spare room is on the north side of this hall, and was open. I turned my head to the left, and through this door I could see under the bed of this room. On the north side of the bed, on the floor, I saw what I thought to be a prostrate body."

Earlier in her statement as recorded Mrs. Churchill says Lizzie said she thought Mrs. Borden had come in:

Pg. 11
"O, Lizzie where is your father? In the sitting room. Where were you? I was in the barn looking for a piece of iron. Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of. Dr. Bowen is not at home, and I must have a Doctor. I think I heard Mrs. Borden come in. Will I go and get one or find someone who will? Yes. I did so."

Witness Statements
Bridget Oct. 1st
22
"When I returned from Miss Russell’s, I asked Lizzie if I would go to Mrs. Whitehead’s to see if Mrs. Borden was there. It was then Lizzie said, no, I think I heard her come in."

--Mrs. Churchill has a few things out of order I think.
_______

Inquest
Churchill
132
Q. Have you now told all you know of all that happened in your presence with relation to the affair?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And all that was said in your presence?
A. I cannot tell you when she said it, I am very particular what I tell, she said once she wished somebody would try to find Mrs. Borden because she thought she heard her come in. Whether she sat on the stairs when she said it, I cant tell you. She thought she heard her come in. I cant tell when she told it to me, whether before or after I went after the Doctor; she said it to me.
Q. You are sure you did hear it?
A. O. yes.
Q. Was that the occasion of your going to look for Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir. After that she said again she wished we would go up stairs and see if we could find Mrs. Borden.
Q. When she said she thought she had heard her come in, was said before she said she wished you would go up stairs?
A. Yes, before that.
Q. Have you now told all that was said in your presence, that you have heard?
A. Yes Sir.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:13 am

Mrs. Churchill is very confusing. How can Lizzie say that about looking for Mrs. Borden before Dr. Bowen came? I don't think she could or Bowen would have known to look.
Is she trying to help Lizzie, or cut her some slack?

Preliminary
283
Q. What were you doing, were you fanning her, or was she doing anything but just sitting there?
A. No Sir. I put my hand on her shoulder, or her arm, as I came in.

Q. When you asked her where her mother was, she said she had a note to go see someone that was sick?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Was that all she said at that time?
A. But she did not know but she was killed too.

Q. Did she say anything besides that at that time?
A. She said that she wished someone would try to find her; that she thought she heard her come in.

Q. Did she say that at that time?
A. I think so.

Q. Are you sure she said that then Mrs. Churchill, or afterwards when Miss Russell came?
A. She said it after again.

Q. But you think she said it this time too?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What took place then after that?
A. Then she said Dr. Bowen was not at home, and she must have a Doctor; and I offered to try to get one.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:18 am

Trial
Mrs. Churchill

Page 348

Q. State if you please, anything that was said between Miss Lizzie Borden and yourself as soon as you reached the screen door?
A. I stepped inside the screen door and she was sitting on the second stair, at the right of the door. I put my right hand on her arm and said "Oh, Lizzie." I then said, "Where is your father?" She said, "In the sitting room." And I said, "Where were you when it happened?" and, said she, "I went to the barn to get a piece of iron." I said, "Where is your mother?" She said, "I don't know; she had got a note to go see someone who is sick, but I don't know but she is killed too, for I thought I heard her come in."we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned."

Q. Anything else at that time?
A. She said, "Father must have an enemy, for we have all been sick, and we think the milk has been poisoned."

Q. Anything else said?
A. She said, "Dr. Bowen is not at home and I must have a doctor." I said, "Lizzie, shall I go and try to get some one to get a doctor?" and she said "Yes," and I went out.
......
350
Q. Now proceed in the narrative as it comes to your mind, Mrs. Churchill.
A. Then at some time near that time Lizzie asked him if he would send a telegram to Emma, her sister, and put it as gently as he could, because there was an old person there and it would shock her.

Q. Anything else that you recall?
A. Not then. I think Miss Russell came soon after that.

Q. Was there any further suggestion about Mrs. Borden from anyone?
A. After Miss Russell came Lizzie said she wished some one would try to find Mrs. Borden for she thought she heard her come in.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:23 am

Preliminary
Bridget
28+
Q. Who else was there besides Mrs. Churchill?
A. That is all I remember, Mrs. Churchill and Dr. Bowen.
.........

Q. What is the next thing you remember to have taken place?
A. Dr. Bowen said Mr. Borden was murdered, as I went into the dining room.

Q. Did you see anything of the ironing board when you got back?
A. I did not notice it, but afterwards I saw it on the kitchen table.
..........

Q. Was anything more said then that you remember of?
A. No Sir.

Q. What did you do then?
A. We were talking, I said I would like to know where Mrs. Borden was. I said I would go over to Mrs. Whitehead's. She said she would like us to search for Mrs. Borden, she told us to go and search for her. I said I would go over there, if I knew where the house was. She said she was positive she heard her coming in, and would not we go up stairs and see.

Q. Who said that?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I said I would not go up stairs; and Mrs. Churchill said she was willing to go with me; so me and Mrs. Churchill went up the front stairs. There we found Mrs. Borden.

Q. Did you see her before you got in?
A. I saw her as I went in; but I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.

Q. Was the door open then into the room?
A. Yes Sir.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:48 pm

that's a good question: what did mrs. churchill think upon first hearing that lizzie thought she heard abby come in? perhaps the first thing is that she expected for abby to walk into the room shortly. i don't know how well it registered until lizzie got them to go look for her. THEN i wonder what she thought? i don't think i understand how this was a hush-hush thing among the women OR why bridget and mrs. churchill went up there alone? i'd like to know what they expected to find before they saw. somehow they knew they were to look for a dead body, i would think. they couldn't have thought she was up there sewing. i guess mrs. churchill didn't do much thinking right then and there but had plenty to think about later.

i should thought of alice and the dress-burning and lizzie's behavior about that in the kitchen. did lizzie believe she could trust alice to keep her mouth shut about pretty much anything she saw?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:46 pm

When Dr. Bowen wanted a sheet, Bridget was sent up for it because she knew where to find them and also because it sounds as if Lizzie was already giving her orders (as if she knew in absence of Emma, she was now mistress*)- and Bridget was frightened to go up alone and Mrs. Churchill went with her.
Then knowing Abby was not in her room or dressing room, they couldn't know she wasn't in the attic or cellar or front part of the house, dead or otherwise so again Bridget wanted company to go upstairs and then she found Abby.

Do you think they expected her to be dead? Since it seems so early after the finding of Andrew that Lizzie said she thought she heard Abby come in, is it possible they believed Lizzie literally that Abby was around, not yet knowing the death of Andrew had occurred. They weren't making a whole lot of noise at this point?
It's an interesting conundrum trying to figure out when Lizzie said that and if she meant she heard her in the most recent past.

*Lizzie also ordered Bridget to go find people and she ordered her to show the police around the house and cellars and to show them where to find the hatchets and axes.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:38 pm

that's a good question: what did mrs. churchill think upon first hearing that lizzie thought she heard abby come in?

That is a really good question, I realize Mrs. Churchill may have been shocked at the news about Andrew, but, I think she might have responded to the statement about hearing Abby come in. No, "When did you think you heard Abby come in?, no, "Which door did you think you heard her come in from?, nothing.

Granted, Bridget was out of the house most of the time, but, she didn't hear or see Abby come in while she was cleaning windows inside the house. So, that would leave the small amount of time that Bridget went up to her room and before Lizzie "went to the barn" to the small amount of time after discovering Andrew's body and sending Bridget off on her errands and before Mrs. Churchill came over.

If Abby had been out and had just come in through the front door, wouldn't she have gone first to the back of the house, the kitchen, her room, etc. She would have to come through the sitting room and would have discovered Andrew's body herself. If the killer was still there and gave chase to Abby, 200 lbs running through the house and up the stairs to the guest room with the door to the sitting room still ajar, I don't think Lizzie would have "thought" she heard Abby come in, it would have been more definite.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:48 pm

I thought this might be a good place to put this, couldn't find another thread that this fit well enough. Anyhow, I'm rereading Porter's The Fall River Tragedy and found something interesting written there. According to Porter there was another witness to Bridget's window washing besides Mrs. Churchill.

Page 37:

"Bolles saw Bridget cleaning windows on the north and west side of the house early in the forenoon, but she was not in sight at 11:20. All members of the Buffington household agreed that if there had been any screams from inside the Borden house it would certainly have been heard by them."

So, according to Porter, Mrs. Churchill's hired man, Tom Bolles saw Bridget washing windows the morning of the murders. I don't recall seeing him being questioned on that, can anyone verify Porter's claim?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:50 am

Trial
Thomas Bowles
1191
Q. Now during the time that you were washing carriages there did you see anyone go in or come out of the Borden yard, or go through the yard in which you were?
A. No, sir; I did not.
...........

1193
Q. And so you didn't see anybody?
A. No, sir.

He was on the other side of Churchill's house, in the driveway, near Burt's house. His sight line was to the fence, well and latticework where the properties adjoined near the barn. He doesn't mention Bridget. Maybe Porter got that from a news report?
So far I've only found Churchill and Pettee who claim to have seen Bridget, around 10 a.m. We don't know positively that Mary Doolan saw her because we don't have Mary's statement- not that I disregard that info on Mary.

Good luck with Porter! i hope you have the actual trial document open while you read him!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:27 pm

Good luck with Porter! i hope you have the actual trial document open while you read him!

No, unfortunately I've been reading it at work and haven't had access to any of the source documents. One thing about Porter, even if some of the facts are screwy, is that it was written so cloesly after the murders which makes it so interesting to me.

I did find this in the Witness Statements about Mary:

Page 8

"In the morning, shortly before the murder, Dr. Kelly's girl, Mary, was talking to Bridget over the fence, neither saw anyone in or around the yard."

It sounds like they may have questioned Mary early on to make that statement? Thanks for finding Tom Bolles for me, I reread it myself. From the sounds of it, he was more towards the rear of Mrs. Churchill's house as his view of the Borden's house was right around the barn and well house, not a prime spot for viewing their yard, but, he is quite clear that he saw no one there. So much for Porter's take on that.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:54 am

In that quote about Mary Doolan he doesn't say he spoke to her- he could just as easily be implying that Bridget told him neither saw anyone, or even that Mary told Mrs. Kelly that neither saw anyone- just no qoute from Mary herself- that is the officer talking- just to be clear.
(I am probably splitting hairs, I know...) That's just my take on that "Witness Statement."

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:12 pm

I think you are right to split hairs, Kat. I wish we had some sort of statement that was directly linked to Mary herself.

Found something else interesting in Porter; John Fleet's alleged statement from Lizzie where she had last seen Abby, page 113:

"I asked her when she saw her mother last. She said about 9 o'clock, when she was going down stairs. Her mother was in the room where she was found murdered. Miss Lizzie also said that Mrs. Borden had received a note or letter from someone that morning. She thought it was from somebody of the house."

This is actually in the Witness Statements, page 2:

Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about nine o'clock. She then saw her in the bedroom when she was coming down stairs.

Quite a difference from what Lizzie said at the Inquest:

Q. When did you last see your mother?
A. I did not see her after when I went down in the morning and she was dusting the dining room.

Simple mistake or do you think that Lizzie might have flubbed her story?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:30 pm

Recall, in the Casebook, page 19, Fleet's original notes say:
..."Lizzie said that she had not seen Mrs. Borden since about 9 o'clock She thought _____Bedroom when she was _____."
Someone filled in the blanks...

What I think is interesting is that Porter seems assured, rather than speculating, that the note came from "somebody of the house." I don't recall this inference.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:21 am

Yes, that statement "somebody of the house" didn't make sense to me as I typed it, I had to reread it twice! What do you think that is supposed to mean? Somebody in the Borden house sent it? Strange.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:50 pm

Gee, I don't know. It might mean that someone in the Borden house sent the note to someone else in the Borden house- like Andrew to Abby, or Emma to Lizzie?

Or my first thought was it was implied as a relative of the house- say Abby's 1/2 sister Sarah, someone like that...or Lurana to Lizzie?
You know, Lurana was sick that Thursday according to Hiram Harrington...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:35 pm

That sounds about right to me too now that you mention it. Hmmm, Hiram, if a note did come from Lurana to Abby that day and she couldn't get up and out to tell others of it, or Hiram forbade it, what could be gained by him not coming forward about the note? To get back at Lizzie for cutting him as Andrew did? His newspaper interview sounded like he had it out for Lizzie. This is all just supposing, trying this on for size, a vindictive Hiram Harrington out to reek havoc on Lizzie's life.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:55 pm

Well, at least we found somebody "of the house" who was sick....

I wonder how Abby got along with Andrew's sister?
They lived quite a ways away. Bridget says she was told the note was probably from someone "in town."
Hiram & Lurana used to live on Turner Street "up near the depot." That's the other side of town, I believe?

Prelim
Bridget
33
A. Lizzie Borden asked me that day if I was going out that afternoon. I said I did not know, I might, and I might not. She said "if you go out, be sure and have the doors fastened, I might go out too, and Mrs. Borden may be gone out too. She had a note this morning, a sick call." I said "who is sick?" She said "she had a note, so it must be in town."

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

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