Goulds, Vanderbilts and money

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun May 14, 2006 2:06 pm

Vol 3 Number 2 issue of the Hatchet finally arrived at my door yesterday.

Loved your piece on Jay Gould Kat, very informative and a nice twist to the Borden saga. Well done......

Jay Gould's son went on to be active in the yacht racing circles. George J Gould owned and America's Cup winner, VIGILANT. Vigilant was owned by a sydicate which included Cornelius Vanderbilt. Vigilant went on to win the America's Cup in England against the English sailing vessel VALKYRIE II in the same year Edwin Porter published his narrative on the Borden murders.

After the America's Cup win I believe Vigilant was sold to Jay Gould's son George J Gould. George J. did own the boat when the America's Cup boat DEFENDER was competing and Gould raced Vigilant in trials against Defender in Narraganset Bay. Below is a photo taken from my copy of Lawson's History of the America's Cup. Vigilant is on the right. Hard to make out, and I am sure I have better photos in my collection stored away. This one is taken from a famous water color. It's caption reads:

"Near the Finish Line, Oct. 13th 1893 Valkyrie II Loses a Spinnaker"

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun May 14, 2006 3:08 pm

Here is a smaller size, although I do like to see the huge size close-up!

Don't you just wish you could have seen that or participated? It's just fantastic! Thanks for the pic!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun May 14, 2006 5:02 pm

Wowww! Kat that came up real, real nice. Thanks, always appreciate your help.

Yes, watching one of these "True Yachts" sail by is a marvel.

Last year I witnessed SHAMROCK V, Sir Thomas Lipton's (Tea Baron) last America's Cup yacht, sail right by off of Newport R.I. Of course I was sailing the opposite way in my small boat. What a site. The only ture way to witness such a site is on the water. With the trees in the back ground it looked, and I felt, like I was back in the 1930s. What a Majectic site. Pictures just don't do it justice. There was a good breeze and she sat on her ear, it's monster mast pointing in my direction her graceful green bow crashing through the small swell, the crew all hanging on. Cool.

http://www.rnryachts.com/ShamrockV.html

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun May 14, 2006 10:16 pm

The caption under Jay Gould's photo below reads:

He issued fraudulent stock and shamelessly milked the companies he seized. Among the victims of his free-wheeling financial swindels were many memebers of the New York Yacht Club. So Jay Gould was doubtless more angered than surprised when, upon applying for memebership in the prestiguious club in the 1870s he was blackballed.

In 1881, after skimming the cream from yet another of his dubious financial coups, Gould decided to devote more of his leisure time to Yachting. He ordered the most advanced yacht in America--the fast, propeller-driven, 228 foot Atalanta---and outfitted her with expensive tapestries, a dining saloon that seated 32, electric lighting and a machine that could make half a ton of ice.

But Gould made no further effort to become a member of the New York Yacht Club. Instead, in 1883 he gathered a group of financiers and political bosses and put together his own organization, the American Yacht Club, located across the street from the one that had rejected him.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:49 pm

On the same page as the Gould Piece in my post above I found this line. (Discussing, as in Gould's and Vanderbilt's quest for the faster boat.)

"Many an owner was overcome with anguish as another yacht swept pass him down Long Island Sound. When cotton millionaire Matthew C. D. Borden endured this humiliation he told his captain, "Don't stop at the yacht club landing. Continue on to Seabury's Yard so that I can order a faster yacht."

M. C. D. Borden was one of the Richest Bordens. He owned The Fall River Iron Works and The Fall River Print Workers. Borden did not live in Fall River but in New York, with the "Big Boys."

(The Seafares, Time-Life Books "The Luxury Yachts")

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:27 am

In the Photo below are the Vanderbilts aboard the Yacht "ALVA."

It was taken during the Vandferbilt's Mediterranean Cruise in 1887-1888.

Willie Vanderbilt is seated to the left/middle on a deck chair. Also in the photo are the 2 Vanderbilt children. In the Hammock to the right is Alva, Vanderbilt's wife for which the boat was named. Way over on the left, sitting on the floor, is Oliver Belmont, a society bachelor for whom Alva later divorced Willie. (Poor Willie, and all that money)

Love the guy standing on the right with his smoking pipe in hand.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:16 am

That's a cool picture. I only saw newspaper illustrations in my research.
Here is your pic, sized so I can see the whole thing.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue May 23, 2006 11:58 am

Thanks for the fascinating posts, mb & Kat!

That guy on the right looks like he's a suspect in a Clue game.

I did wonder what Jay Gould did to make his money. That was funny!

I was so surprised.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 23, 2006 11:35 pm

It's a bit more complicated than that, Sherry- that's the Time-Life version of Jay Gould's career.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed May 24, 2006 12:17 am

You know Kat, many book people poo-poo the Time-Life series of books. There are many, including one on the Wild West, WWII, Photography, etc, but they are very informative and the photos are great, like little compact encyclopidias on one subject.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed May 24, 2006 9:28 am

We have several of the Time-Life book series. The Civil War. A second Civil War set, that is all books of re-printed originals - some written by soldiers who were in it. The Old West series. One on boats - I wonder if it has 'The Luxury Liners' in the set that mb mentioned. A set on home repairs that Steve never looked at and never will. A WWII set. I think a WWII Luftwaffe set as well.

I read the one on the Lincoln assassination in the Civil War set. It was very good. And I was starting to read my way thru the Old West series - just beautiful books - 'hand tooled leather' I think they used to described them as on the old commercials. But then our basement in our old house flooded and ruined most of the set. Figures - my favorite set. And those are 'spensive, Lucy.

The list of their editors/researchers for each book is impressive. I wouldn't think they got their information on Jay Gould wrong. Do you mean they don't go into a lot of detail on some bios? That they do more of an overview, Kat?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 25, 2006 12:08 am

I would consider that what Michael posted as cursory, at best. Simplified. The books themselves might go into more detail about Gould's life? How many pages devoted to him, Michael?
I would not say they are wrong. I have collected Time-Life books on several subjects. They have great access to pictures. I never pooh-pooh Time Life books.

If one has a whole volume on Robber Barons and their place in history, then that might give a good overview of the way these guys did business.
I know you understand what I mean.
One slight paragraph transcribed here cannot give the story of how Gould made his money. I do have 109 items in my Gould file for my research, including a couple of web sites and photos, but mostly newspaper stories about Vanderbilt, and Gould.
I'm no expert, believe me! But I did read and absorb all these items for content, context and information. Even during the days of The Robber Barons, no one really understood what they were doing. There weren't a lot of rules back then.
The most telling portrait I read on Gould was actually in a book about Vanderbilt, including Gould's own story in his own words: The Vanderbilt Legend, The Story of the Vanderbilt Family 1794- 1940, Wayne Andrews, Harcourt, Brace etc. 1941, pgs. 127-42.
I didn't read the whole Vanderbilt story because I was looking for Gould.
Fascinating.
I'm just glad that something I wrote inspired people to look Gould up for themselves!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu May 25, 2006 2:53 am

Yes Kat: There is very little to nothing about Gould in the Time-life books. The volume that I took the photo from and the narrative that was written below it was just about it, with the exception of a line or two else where. Most of the chapter is devoted to the Vanderbilts. The information is taken from the "Seafares serries" in the volume named, "The Luxury Yachts," and the information I got about Gould"s son and the sailing vessel Vigilant was from the volume named, "The Racing Yachts." I have about 200 volumes of books on sailing but mostly about sailing on small boats under 60 feet. Very little about yachts such as Goulds or Vanderbilts. Can't relate. So as you say, it is just some ready access info I had and only posted as cursory to stimulate conversation on an interesting age.

To tell you the truth, had no Idea who Jay Gould was till I read your article. Your article just hit my curiosity nerve.

(But, not sure what we are discussing. About who being wrong? Did I post some bogus information?

Went back and re-read. What am I missing?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 25, 2006 4:05 am

Michael you did what writers dream their reader will do. You were inspired to find out more. You got out your beautiful books with the beautiful pictures (which I had no access to) and posted further information along the lines of what interested you- what caught your fancy- what else you found that you wanted to share.
And you did it out of curiosity. Thank you for posting all you did and providing more side story.

There's no fault here. My only comment to Augusta was that a caption under a photograph was not fully representative of how Gould made his money, which comment was made in this thread. No one is wrong.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.
It's complicated, Sherry, and if I tried to explain, it would be another article!

I noted that I know she knows what I meant.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu May 25, 2006 7:17 am

Thanks Kat: I understand now..........i think....(?)

Oh yes, I am sure that the caption under the picture of Gould in Time/Life was hand picked by the author to shock. What they said about Gould was probably true about all the excessively rich. He probably earned a reputation by his peers and it stuck.

(ok I'm back. just bid on a Fall River post card. Had to have it. Never seen it before. It's of the boat houses at the Narrows on the Watuppa, all gone now. If you were to leave the Hampton Inn Westport and start for Fall River on RT6, all these boat houses were on the left on the water where LePage Resturant is now.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... otohosting

Sorry

OK, where was I?

Like having a photo of Andrew Borden with the caption about how he made his money by robbing the poor of their property and pinning the rich against each other and playing the middle. Perhaps it happened more than once, but many may think that is how Borden made all his money. I can see your point Kat. Though everything I know about Gould was what I read in your article. If I try to look up any more info, it will probably be about his son owner of the Vigilant. (Though I don't think he owned it when it won the America's Cup.) Hope I didn't demonize the old fellow?