Lizzie and Emma's signature?

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:29 am

There's another Lizzie item on e-bay. This one claims to be an account book that has not only Lizzie's signature four times but also Emma's. There's some other Fall River's notables too. Now hold on to your red hats because this puppy is starting out at $5,500! I have no idea how real this item is or isn't.

Edisto · Post by **Edisto** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:29 pm

This item has been offered several times on eBay and (if I recall correctly) also on another auction site. I believe it to be authentic.

I've been in touch with the seller (or rather with the seller's wife) and was told that the price is based on what the seller paid for the item some time ago. He's trying to recoup his investment. If I remember correctly, the "Buy It Now" price was more the last time it was offered.

I would love to own this item and would be glad to pay a reasonable amount for it. However, it does have some problems. About five years ago, the "book" value for a Lizzie Borden signature was around $1,000. However, all signatures aren't created equal. The best ones provide some context, such as a brief note also in the signer's hand, or even an important typed document. This book really doesn't provide such a context. One of the best signatures would undoubtedly bring more than $1,000, while a lesser type of signature wouldn't be worth that much. The other signatures in the book (even Emma's) don't have much monetary value.

Even though there are four Lizzie Borden signatures in the book, it would be difficult to separate them so that they could be sold off to recoup one's investment. Dismantling the book would be a great shame, and the results probably wouldn't sell for enough to make it pay. Since they can't (or shouldn't) be separated, they pretty much count as one signature.

A wonderful, mouth-watering item, but hardly a bargain, IMHO.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:27 am

Counting as one signature makes sense!
I hadn't thought of it that way!

Anyone have a link?
I recall this book.
If it has an "Andrew J. Borden" signature it might be more rare than a "Lizzie."

diana · Post by **diana** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:41 pm

The seller of these signatures is a forum member and here is a link to a fairly lengthy forum discussion we had with him in August 2004.

There is also a bit in there where I put forward (again) my pet theory that the Andrew J. Borden signature is 'our Andrew' and that he added the note "atty" after his signature simply to indicate he was exercising power of attorney for Mary Ann Borden (the daughter of Andrew's uncle Thomas).

The Andrew J. Borden signature in the account book is not at all similar to the Andrew Borden signature on the exchange draft cheque presently offered on eBay BTW.

viewtopic.php?p=3191&highlight=#3191

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:29 am

Thanks Diana!
I put your scenario to the folks in Fall River in the past and was told that Andrew could sign as atty if he was POA for Mary Ann.
I have also been informed and read during genealogy research that the initials ESQ. could be appended in certain circumstances by gentlemen back then as well.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:56 am

LIZZIE LETTER?

If real, a truly rare find. Already one bid. Hmmmmm?

Trouble cutting/pasting. Item Number: ebay 6636313677[/img]

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:17 am

Verrry interesting. Thanks Michael.

Here's the URL for the item: http://tinyurl.com/fhreo

Lot of Lizzie signatures turning up lately. Now for some more photos.

diana · Post by **diana** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:10 pm

Note:
"Accompanied by LOA signed by the curator of The Fall River Historical Society."

Does this mean Michael Martins has authenticated it?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:45 pm

Yes, Thanks much Harry. Yes, Diana very interesting. Must investigate........

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:48 pm

That's a good question Diana. It's odd how the seller doesn't show the LOA. Maybe the wording is not what they would like.

Like the page torn from the autograph book this specimen, if authentic, loses much of its value. Where's the first part of the letter? To whom was it addressed? What year is it dated? And of course, it's provenence?

The closing lines are vaguely familiar- "but shall hope to see you before long", but I have no idea why.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:57 pm

Yes Harry: Tried calling The FRHS but kept getting their voice mail. When I go out for my soup and cheese cake shortly I will try and stop by the FRHS and ask them about it.

william · Post by **william** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:07 pm

The seller relates the history of the murders, with which we are familiar, but tells nothing of the provenance. If Martins says the letter was written by Lizzie he must have given some background to the seller.

If the letter was not written by Lizzie it is the best forgery I have ever seen. I'm inclined to believe it is legitimate but I still want to know more of its history.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:57 pm

I agree it looks very much like Lizzie's known signatures. It's just so out of context however so we need to know a lot more.

Somehow I can't see the FRHS issueing a LOA.

One thing I would not want to get involved in is collecting autographs. There are too many forgeries floating around. A few years ago there was quite a scandal with forged baseball player signatures.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:12 pm

Right you are William, it is Lizzie's signature. I just spoke to Michael and Dennis at the FRHS. As you made clear Harry, only half a letter which takes much away. But, Michael remembers the letter and claims that it is in fact Lizzie's hand.

The letter originally came out of a Private Collection in Fall River about 10 years ago and ended up with an Autograph dealer in Tiverton, R.I. Where the other half went is a mystery and how it ended up in W.V., who knows.

But Michael did not issue a letter of Authenticity for this specific auction and was unaware that the letter was going to auction.

Off course all info added here is greatly appreciated and all Thanks to Michael Martin of the FRHS.

Thanks.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:30 pm

Wow, good job Michael!

We now have another authentic Lizzie signature to compare with. As Kat would say, YAY!

As much as I love ya Lizzie, I'm not prepared to offer what they are asking plus a 22.5% buyer premium.

diana · Post by **diana** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:35 pm

Now, with that confirmation from the FRHS, we have another authentic Lizzie signature to use for comparison purposes!

It's so great to have forum members on-site who can do the legwork for us. Thank you, Michael!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:42 pm

Finally...a REAL one. This is good news. ANd yes...THANK YOU Michael for all your work in letting us know !

Tracy...

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:02 pm

It's kinda nice to see one of Lizzie's signatures in ink, instead of pencil lead, for a change!

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:21 am

william · Post by **william** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:01 am

Thank you Michael. You provided more background about the letter than the seller.

The next question to be answered: How did the seller have the hutzpah to say he had a Letter of Authenticity when Martins denies it? Where is his professional integrity?

diana · Post by **diana** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:57 am

I was wondering about that, too.

But I noticed the post says Michael Martins "did not issue a letter of Authenticity for this specific auction" -- so perhaps there is a previous LOA from him which accompanies the letter?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:30 am

Yes diana, Michael could have signed a LOA in the past that has accompanied the letter as it changed hands over the years, but he did not sign one for this specific dealer or auction. Once you attain a Letter of Authenticity for such an item, it becomes integral part of that item and should follow or be sold along with it. Many times they become separated from collector to dealer to collector.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:00 pm

That was well done Michael, finding that and investigating it so quickly! Thank you!

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:05 pm

Thanks Kat, but no big deal. FRHS is just 3 blocks or so from my apartment.

RWN · Post by **RWN** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:08 pm

Hi, I'm new to this forum. Thought you all might like to know that the original power of attorney form from Lizzie to Emma three days after her arrest will be sold by Heritage Auctions on October 19, 2017 with online bidding starting September 29, 2017. I think the starting bid will be $7000. Also, the power of attorney from Emma to her lawyer at a later date is being sold. Wonder how much interest there will be.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Lizzie and Emma's signature?

Lizzie and Emma's signature?

Re: Lizzie and Emma's signature?