On page 14 of the Witness statements covering Police Officer Harrington's notes of August 10:
"From the barn we took one willow basket containing two pieces of round lead pipe, and a number of pieces of scrap sheet lead; and one wooden box in which were pieces of round and sheet lead. The basket and contents were found up stairs, and the box and its holdings, down stairs. All were brought to the station house, and locked in the store room by Marshal Hilliard."
From Lizzie's Inquest statement, p69+ :
Q. What made you think there would be lead for a sinker up there?
A. Because there was some there.
Q. Was there not some by the door?
A. Some pieces of lead by the open door, but there was a box full of old things up stairs.
------
Q. Where was that box you say was up stairs, containing lead?
A. There was a kind of a work bench.
-----------------
Then the bottom of page 73 and almost all of 74 are devoted to Lizzie describing the "box" on the workbench. Obviously the police were trying to see if Lizzie really had looked through the box and that if she could describe it.
Since Harringtons notes are dated the 10th, I don't know if Lizzie already had given her barn testimony prior to that on the 9th.
It would seem to me there would be a clear difference between a willow basket and a box. At least as to what I think a willow basket looks like. The police clearly distinguished between them.
Was it a box or a basket?
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Harry
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Kat
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In the hard copy of Lizzie's inquest testimony, page 65, it says that the Hearing is continued on Aug. 10th, 1892- and since the page where Lizzie first talks about the box is on page 69, her testimony seems to be on Wednesday the 10th.
However, I think there is more discrepancy between box and basket- we should keep looking.
However, I think there is more discrepancy between box and basket- we should keep looking.
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Susan
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Kat
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I've been Word-Searching the trial for "Box" and "Basket" and finished pt.1. It's taking a while.
When I finish Pt. 2 of the trial I will have the answer I was looking for, I hope: Because I thought I remembered a cop saying there was a basket downstairs in the barn and a box upstairs. I want to see if that ever happened in testimony.
So far I have Fleet, Edson, Medley, & Harrington all saying the box was downstairs and the basket was upstairs, which contradicts Lizzie.
They actually retrieved the basket and box and brought them to the station, and the courthouse as exhibits!
681
MR. MOODY. I would like to show these two boxes to the jury so they can see what is in them, and the basket found upstairs, containing the nails mixed with a few screws, paper, underneath two pieces of lead pipe, and three pieces of sheet lead.
(Boxes and basket shown to jury.)
MR. MOODY. If your Honors' please, we would like to offer the box and the basket and have them in evidence in the case.
MR. ROBINSON. There is no objection.
............
When I finish Pt. 2 of the trial I will have the answer I was looking for, I hope: Because I thought I remembered a cop saying there was a basket downstairs in the barn and a box upstairs. I want to see if that ever happened in testimony.
So far I have Fleet, Edson, Medley, & Harrington all saying the box was downstairs and the basket was upstairs, which contradicts Lizzie.
They actually retrieved the basket and box and brought them to the station, and the courthouse as exhibits!
681
MR. MOODY. I would like to show these two boxes to the jury so they can see what is in them, and the basket found upstairs, containing the nails mixed with a few screws, paper, underneath two pieces of lead pipe, and three pieces of sheet lead.
(Boxes and basket shown to jury.)
MR. MOODY. If your Honors' please, we would like to offer the box and the basket and have them in evidence in the case.
MR. ROBINSON. There is no objection.
............
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Susan
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Kat, you found something interesting there, 2 boxes and the basket. From whence did this second box come from? I was always under the impression that it was one box and a basket. Were the contents of the basket transfered to a box for display purposes?681
MR. MOODY. I would like to show these two boxes to the jury so they can see what is in them, and the basket found upstairs, containing the nails mixed with a few screws, paper, underneath two pieces of lead pipe, and three pieces of sheet lead.
(Boxes and basket shown to jury.)
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Harry
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Here again we have the clear distinction between a box and basket.
Yes, that is an interesting find, 2 boxes and a basket. The way its worded is as if the two boxes were down stairs and not in the loft.
We know there was one box down stairs that was near the door.
Great photos of the wicker baskets Susan. That last one definitely looks box shaped and that's what may have been up in the loft.
Yes, that is an interesting find, 2 boxes and a basket. The way its worded is as if the two boxes were down stairs and not in the loft.
We know there was one box down stairs that was near the door.
Great photos of the wicker baskets Susan. That last one definitely looks box shaped and that's what may have been up in the loft.
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Haulover
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i don't know how this plays into this -- but yesterday i was reading (Trial) where the officers are talking about the box near the chimney near the ashheap, etc, where the handleless hatchet was found -- anyway, it sounds like exactly the same kind of box/basket as was in the barn. is this one of the "boxes?"
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Kat
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Kat
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I think the more interesting part of this quote is that the basket was foundSusan @ Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:06 pm wrote:681
MR. MOODY. I would like to show these two boxes to the jury so they can see what is in them, and the basket found upstairs, containing the nails mixed with a few screws, paper, underneath two pieces of lead pipe, and three pieces of sheet lead.
(Boxes and basket shown to jury.)
" underneath two pieces of lead pipe, and three pieces of sheet lead."- which implies that no one [Lizzie] got access to that basket after all, unless it was uncovered, examined for sinker-lead, and covered back up again.
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Kat
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Not to confuse anyone: I'm finished looking at the trial for box or basket, but what happened is that Hilliard testified that the basket was on top of stuff in the loft rather than under stuff so I found he did not see the basket and take it away until Monday, the 10th of August.
Harry, the 10th is when you said Harrington put it in his notes and I had remarked that Lizzie testified to the box in the loft on the 10th as well. These things must all be related. It sounds as if the Inquest supplied the officials with more things to look for, does that sound fair to say?
Trial
Hilliard
1121
; I took away from the barn a basket from the loft, containing lead; I also took away a box containing lead from what I termed to be the carriage house in the barn.
........
1122
Q. You know the basket and box that have been in the court house during this trial?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The basket, you say, was found in the loft?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whereabouts in the loft?
A. It sat on top of some boards that lay on top of the bench, wooden bench that was on the south side of the barn.
Q. How was that barn on the Thursday afternoon in its loft, in the upper part, with respect to dust?
A. Well, there was considerable dust there?
Q. Where did you find the box? Describe particularly.
A. The box, as you entered the door on the south side of the barn going to the northward, just inside of that door there was another door to the left or westward that went
Page 1123
into what I termed as the carriage-house, and just at the left after passing through this door, just at the left that stood down there.
Q. Do you know whether the basket and the box were in the positions Thursday, the day of the homicide, that they were in or substantially the positions that they were in on the day that you took them away?
A. That I could not say.
[These things were taken by Hilliard himself on the 10th of August]
.......
I also found something interesting in a set of questions to Mrs. Dr. Bowen:
Box at Trial
Mrs. Bowen
Q. You noticed her hands, you say?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They looked white?
A. They did.
Q. Did you notice that they were clean?
A. Yes.
Q. Clean and white?
A. Clean and white.
Q. The whole of the hands?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nothing on them at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they present to you the appearance of having been out in a
Page 1587
dusty barn?
A. I did not notice anything upon them.
Q. Noticed nothing of that kind whatever?
A. No, sir, I was not thinking of it.
Q. Clean and white, were they?
A. I think they were.
Q. Have you seen that box that has been referred to in the case that came from the barn?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have not looked at that?
A. No, sir.
Harry, the 10th is when you said Harrington put it in his notes and I had remarked that Lizzie testified to the box in the loft on the 10th as well. These things must all be related. It sounds as if the Inquest supplied the officials with more things to look for, does that sound fair to say?
Trial
Hilliard
1121
; I took away from the barn a basket from the loft, containing lead; I also took away a box containing lead from what I termed to be the carriage house in the barn.
........
1122
Q. You know the basket and box that have been in the court house during this trial?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The basket, you say, was found in the loft?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Whereabouts in the loft?
A. It sat on top of some boards that lay on top of the bench, wooden bench that was on the south side of the barn.
Q. How was that barn on the Thursday afternoon in its loft, in the upper part, with respect to dust?
A. Well, there was considerable dust there?
Q. Where did you find the box? Describe particularly.
A. The box, as you entered the door on the south side of the barn going to the northward, just inside of that door there was another door to the left or westward that went
Page 1123
into what I termed as the carriage-house, and just at the left after passing through this door, just at the left that stood down there.
Q. Do you know whether the basket and the box were in the positions Thursday, the day of the homicide, that they were in or substantially the positions that they were in on the day that you took them away?
A. That I could not say.
[These things were taken by Hilliard himself on the 10th of August]
.......
I also found something interesting in a set of questions to Mrs. Dr. Bowen:
Box at Trial
Mrs. Bowen
Q. You noticed her hands, you say?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They looked white?
A. They did.
Q. Did you notice that they were clean?
A. Yes.
Q. Clean and white?
A. Clean and white.
Q. The whole of the hands?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nothing on them at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did they present to you the appearance of having been out in a
Page 1587
dusty barn?
A. I did not notice anything upon them.
Q. Noticed nothing of that kind whatever?
A. No, sir, I was not thinking of it.
Q. Clean and white, were they?
A. I think they were.
Q. Have you seen that box that has been referred to in the case that came from the barn?
A. No, sir.
Q. You have not looked at that?
A. No, sir.
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Susan
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That is an odd question, Kat. Sounds almost like they chose to believe Lizzie over Phebe Bowen. How could Lizzie's hands be clean when she was digging through these dirty and dusty boxes? Have you seen how filthy these boxes were?
It was known that there was a water faucet in the barn, why Lizzie didn't just say, O, I rinsed my hands downstairs when I was done, is beyond me. Did she perhaps think any kind of washing that day was dangerous to mention? Better to have a mystery as to how her hands were so clean?
It was known that there was a water faucet in the barn, why Lizzie didn't just say, O, I rinsed my hands downstairs when I was done, is beyond me. Did she perhaps think any kind of washing that day was dangerous to mention? Better to have a mystery as to how her hands were so clean?
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Kat
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Lizzie's clean hands was something Stef was discussing with me after our hurricane, when we were comparing notes on living with no electricity. You hit the nail on the head.
We talked about the fact that seeminglyLizzie's clothes were clean, she was not sweating and her hair was not disordered and her hands were clean.
We broke into a sweat on our foreheads daily, just being outside for 10 minutes.
Either Lizzie did not go into that barn, or she cleaned up after. There was no time, tho.
We talked about the fact that seeminglyLizzie's clothes were clean, she was not sweating and her hair was not disordered and her hands were clean.
We broke into a sweat on our foreheads daily, just being outside for 10 minutes.
Either Lizzie did not go into that barn, or she cleaned up after. There was no time, tho.
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Susan
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Yes, the timing is always the issue, but, innocent Lizzie out in the barn or guilty Lizzie killing father, she had to have cleaned up somewhat. Maybe Bridget is totally off on the time she went up, its like there just needs to be more time either way.
Yes, all told, the witness' seemed to think that Lizzie's clothing was clean, no dust or dirt on her anywhere. Though there was the issue with Lizzie's blouse looking as though it was pulled out in the front, possibly the style or pulled out from Lizzie reaching up high, say to put a hatchet up on a beam in the barn loft? Its one of the things that Alice had noticed and she began to loosen Lizzie's clothing further to which Lizzie replied,"I am not faint."
I'm thinking that if Lizzie was wearing dress shields, sweat stains in her armpits might not show, and I don't think she lifted her arms at all when there were witness' there? Plus, with all that extra material in those leg-o-mutton sleeves, they may not have noticed anything with that?
Didn't the ladies bathe Lizzie's face and hands? That may account for no shiny, sweaty face if it was to begin with. Or a quick swipe across the face with one of those handy hankies of her's?
Yes, all told, the witness' seemed to think that Lizzie's clothing was clean, no dust or dirt on her anywhere. Though there was the issue with Lizzie's blouse looking as though it was pulled out in the front, possibly the style or pulled out from Lizzie reaching up high, say to put a hatchet up on a beam in the barn loft? Its one of the things that Alice had noticed and she began to loosen Lizzie's clothing further to which Lizzie replied,"I am not faint."
I'm thinking that if Lizzie was wearing dress shields, sweat stains in her armpits might not show, and I don't think she lifted her arms at all when there were witness' there? Plus, with all that extra material in those leg-o-mutton sleeves, they may not have noticed anything with that?
Didn't the ladies bathe Lizzie's face and hands? That may account for no shiny, sweaty face if it was to begin with. Or a quick swipe across the face with one of those handy hankies of her's?
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Kat
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I was wondering if shiny sweaty faces were normal for the times in August and so would not even be remarked upon.
The clothing and hair and hands would be a different matter tho.
When I mentioned there was no time- I meant if Lizzie was out in the barn for 20 minutes there was no time to clean up after that visit.
If she killed Andrew she had plenty of time (within reason) to clean up because she gave the alarm.
She could kill in 2 minutes and have 18 to get clean.
She could not have spent 20 minutes in the loft and then 2 or 3 minutes to get clean and then immediatly call down Bridget and not look like she had just washed, I don't think.
Earlier you said, why didn't she just say she washed out in the barn? But we know Lizzie doesn't like to explain things.
Harry and I had been talking about how dark the barn would have been.
The clothing and hair and hands would be a different matter tho.
When I mentioned there was no time- I meant if Lizzie was out in the barn for 20 minutes there was no time to clean up after that visit.
If she killed Andrew she had plenty of time (within reason) to clean up because she gave the alarm.
She could kill in 2 minutes and have 18 to get clean.
She could not have spent 20 minutes in the loft and then 2 or 3 minutes to get clean and then immediatly call down Bridget and not look like she had just washed, I don't think.
Earlier you said, why didn't she just say she washed out in the barn? But we know Lizzie doesn't like to explain things.
Harry and I had been talking about how dark the barn would have been.
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Kat
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BTW:
Inquest
Bowen:
Q. Has not fainted?
A. No Sir, not fainted. By the way, I might put in, it does not
122 (29)
connect, but I will go back to the time when I came down the second time. I can describe her condition at that time when I came down stairs the second time, after I found the mother was dead. Miss Russell was at her side in a chair, and was working over her at that time; in a minute or two she got her into the dining room on a sofa or lounge, on the end of that. She was lying down, and she was fanning her, and had wet cloths put on her head, and they were working over her in that way.
Q. Was she faint?
A. Not as I know of at that time. As I found two people murdered there, I supposed the rest would take care of themselves pretty well.
........
Inquest
Sawyer
Q. What was Miss Borden’s appearance?
A. Miss Borden sat in a chair in the kitchen; she seemed to be considerable excited I thought, as though she was apparently grief stricken, or something, although I might not be a judge in that respect. She seemed to be considerably excited and very uneasy, and the ladies seemed to be ministering to her, that is bathing her face.
.......
Prelim
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
503 (479)
Q. How near did you go to her?
A. I stood directly in front of her. Miss Russell was fanning her with a newspaper.
Q. Did she appear agitated?
A. She had her eyes closed, and her head on Miss Russell's shoulder I thought perhaps she was faint. She did not speak at first. Miss Russell asked me to wet the end of the towel, as she was bathing Miss Lizzie's face.
Q. Did you see any signs of blood on the towel after Miss Russell had bathed her face?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see any blood on her hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Russell bathe her hands?
A. No Sir. Miss Russell said "rub her hands". Lizzie made the motion, no.
Q. Shook her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her hair; was that disarranged, or not?
A. Not at all.
Q. It seemed as it usually did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about her clothing, any spots of blood on it?
A. I saw none.
.........
And now Alice:
Prelim
266 (293)
Q. Where were you standing?
A. I think I was sitting.
Q. Where were you sitting?
A. Right beside her.
Q. Did you notice whether there was any blood on her or not?
A. I did not see anything.
Q. On her hands?
A. No Sir.
Page 267 (293)
Q. Did you see her hands?
A. Yes Sir, I rubbed them.
Q. Were there any signs of any blood on them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you observe her face?
(294)
A. I bathed her face.
Q. Were there any signs of blood on it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or on her hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was her hair done up, as usual?
A. I think it must have been, or I would have noticed it.
Q. Did you notice any signs of blood on that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you notice any signs of blood on her clothing, or her dress?
A. No Sir.
........
Ok we find her face was bathed , and her hands were rubbed but they were clean. Her clothing was not in disarry, nor her hair. Yet she was out sweating in the barn for 20 minutes, eating pears with sticky juice and pulling over some lumber at the least?
Inquest
Bowen:
Q. Has not fainted?
A. No Sir, not fainted. By the way, I might put in, it does not
122 (29)
connect, but I will go back to the time when I came down the second time. I can describe her condition at that time when I came down stairs the second time, after I found the mother was dead. Miss Russell was at her side in a chair, and was working over her at that time; in a minute or two she got her into the dining room on a sofa or lounge, on the end of that. She was lying down, and she was fanning her, and had wet cloths put on her head, and they were working over her in that way.
Q. Was she faint?
A. Not as I know of at that time. As I found two people murdered there, I supposed the rest would take care of themselves pretty well.
........
Inquest
Sawyer
Q. What was Miss Borden’s appearance?
A. Miss Borden sat in a chair in the kitchen; she seemed to be considerable excited I thought, as though she was apparently grief stricken, or something, although I might not be a judge in that respect. She seemed to be considerably excited and very uneasy, and the ladies seemed to be ministering to her, that is bathing her face.
.......
Prelim
Mrs. Dr. Bowen
503 (479)
Q. How near did you go to her?
A. I stood directly in front of her. Miss Russell was fanning her with a newspaper.
Q. Did she appear agitated?
A. She had her eyes closed, and her head on Miss Russell's shoulder I thought perhaps she was faint. She did not speak at first. Miss Russell asked me to wet the end of the towel, as she was bathing Miss Lizzie's face.
Q. Did you see any signs of blood on the towel after Miss Russell had bathed her face?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see any blood on her hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Russell bathe her hands?
A. No Sir. Miss Russell said "rub her hands". Lizzie made the motion, no.
Q. Shook her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her hair; was that disarranged, or not?
A. Not at all.
Q. It seemed as it usually did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about her clothing, any spots of blood on it?
A. I saw none.
.........
And now Alice:
Prelim
266 (293)
Q. Where were you standing?
A. I think I was sitting.
Q. Where were you sitting?
A. Right beside her.
Q. Did you notice whether there was any blood on her or not?
A. I did not see anything.
Q. On her hands?
A. No Sir.
Page 267 (293)
Q. Did you see her hands?
A. Yes Sir, I rubbed them.
Q. Were there any signs of any blood on them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you observe her face?
(294)
A. I bathed her face.
Q. Were there any signs of blood on it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or on her hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was her hair done up, as usual?
A. I think it must have been, or I would have noticed it.
Q. Did you notice any signs of blood on that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you notice any signs of blood on her clothing, or her dress?
A. No Sir.
........
Ok we find her face was bathed , and her hands were rubbed but they were clean. Her clothing was not in disarry, nor her hair. Yet she was out sweating in the barn for 20 minutes, eating pears with sticky juice and pulling over some lumber at the least?
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Susan
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Yes, I imagine the barn would have been pretty dim inside during the day, as far as I know, there was only the one window downstairs and a small window in the side door. And in the loft there was that one window facing the street and that small door that opened into the hayloft. Lizzie never mentioned the lighting quality at all from her alleged trip to the barn, I don't think anyone else who checked in there later did either?
Knowlton seemed to think that all Lizzie did in the barn could have been done in a shorter amount of time, could that have meant less time searching and eating pears and more time for washing up her hands and possibly face at the barn faucet? Time enough to dry off before Bridget got down to see her face to face? Its just if Lizzie was innocent and did as she said in the barn, her hands would be filthy, she had to have cleaned them for them to appear clean to all witness' thereafter. She never mentioned any washing of any kind. Which makes me suspicious of her and gives me my usual, either she did it, or knew who did and didn't make the trip to the barn and possibly helped.
I just had this vision in my mind of Lizzie killing Andrew, wearing her hat with a veil over it, covering her face and hair from blood. Wearing cotton gloves to protect her hands from bloodstains and also wearing Andrew's Prince Albert to protect her clothing. I also envisioned her with her skirts tucked up in the waistband so they didn't drag in blood and weren't out in the open. When done, the Prince Albert goes where it was found, the veil and gloves come off and go underneath the bloody rags in that pail that Lizzie had brought down. A quick rinse of her hands to clean that off, skirts untucked and smoothed, a quick check of her shoes and a possible wipe off. A fast look in the mirror and shes ready to holler for Bridget.
Thanks for finding and posting all that info. Okay, so we have a bathed face and clean hands that were just rubbed. I think the "I am not faint" part might be from an author, hopefully not Lincoln! I did find this in the Inquest from Mrs. Churchill on Lizzie's blouse:
Q. Belted In?
A. I cannot tell you how it was made. I know it hung loose here, because I know Miss Russell thought she would open it to give Lizzie a better chance to breathe. Lizzie says "my clothes are loose."
So, perhaps it was the way the blouse was made? Or, was it pulled loose in front, coming out of the waistband of her skirt?
Knowlton seemed to think that all Lizzie did in the barn could have been done in a shorter amount of time, could that have meant less time searching and eating pears and more time for washing up her hands and possibly face at the barn faucet? Time enough to dry off before Bridget got down to see her face to face? Its just if Lizzie was innocent and did as she said in the barn, her hands would be filthy, she had to have cleaned them for them to appear clean to all witness' thereafter. She never mentioned any washing of any kind. Which makes me suspicious of her and gives me my usual, either she did it, or knew who did and didn't make the trip to the barn and possibly helped.
I just had this vision in my mind of Lizzie killing Andrew, wearing her hat with a veil over it, covering her face and hair from blood. Wearing cotton gloves to protect her hands from bloodstains and also wearing Andrew's Prince Albert to protect her clothing. I also envisioned her with her skirts tucked up in the waistband so they didn't drag in blood and weren't out in the open. When done, the Prince Albert goes where it was found, the veil and gloves come off and go underneath the bloody rags in that pail that Lizzie had brought down. A quick rinse of her hands to clean that off, skirts untucked and smoothed, a quick check of her shoes and a possible wipe off. A fast look in the mirror and shes ready to holler for Bridget.
Thanks for finding and posting all that info. Okay, so we have a bathed face and clean hands that were just rubbed. I think the "I am not faint" part might be from an author, hopefully not Lincoln! I did find this in the Inquest from Mrs. Churchill on Lizzie's blouse:
Q. Belted In?
A. I cannot tell you how it was made. I know it hung loose here, because I know Miss Russell thought she would open it to give Lizzie a better chance to breathe. Lizzie says "my clothes are loose."
So, perhaps it was the way the blouse was made? Or, was it pulled loose in front, coming out of the waistband of her skirt?
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Kat
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Susan
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Thanks, Kat. It looks as though the side door to the barn was converted into a window at some point in time in the pic where they are dismantling it. Theres a worker to the left that looks like he is poking his head into what used to be the original side window.
The diagram also made me wonder why in the world there was a curtain on the window in the front of the barn? If Andrew ever did work in there on that bench, you would think he would want as much natural light as possible. Odd.
The diagram also made me wonder why in the world there was a curtain on the window in the front of the barn? If Andrew ever did work in there on that bench, you would think he would want as much natural light as possible. Odd.
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Kat
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Maybe the curtain was symptomatic of the household:
A curtain on rthe barn window which faced the street.
Windows washed all around the downstairs except in the back where the kitchen was- where no one could see.
Carpet on the stairs until the servant's stairway to the attics.
It might not be unusual in those days?
A curtain on rthe barn window which faced the street.
Windows washed all around the downstairs except in the back where the kitchen was- where no one could see.
Carpet on the stairs until the servant's stairway to the attics.
It might not be unusual in those days?
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Susan
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You're probably right about that, it was an odd household. Its just it seems such a feminine touch in an otherwise masculine environment for that time period. I don't think there would be much to see from the street through that window? Unless it had something to do with the pigeons that were kept up there? If they were loose in the loft they might try to get through the closed window and crash into the glass? A small touch of Lizzie's love for animals out in the loft?