Quick, somebody loan me $25,000

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:22 pm

so I can bid on this painting which "may" be by our Lizzie.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 06485&rd=1

I think I'll pass on the painting.

For $14.99 you can bid on this framed reproduction of Lizzie's noisy bird letter:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 11821&rd=1

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:53 am

Hmmm, the seller claims that the painting was done on Masonite board, this is what I found out about Masonite:

Masonite® is a registered trademark of the Masonite Corporation. The term is often and incorrectly used to refer to any brand of hardboard, which was invented by William H. Mason in 1924. The Masonite Company, which he founded, uses the name Duron® to refer to its current hardboard products (which are "wet-process" boards).

I don't think Lizzie was teaching any Sunday school at that late point of life.

If that painting is actually on hardboard theres no way Lizzie did it and gave it to someone in 1888. And unless the seller can do some carbon dating on the paint itself, I would save my money if I were you!

Painting on Wood Panels - A Short History
Painting on wooden panels dates back even before the 1400's when the Italian and Flemish masters painted on solid wood panels of oak and poplar prepared with layers of gesso containing calcium carbonate. Today's modern painters have continued this tradition using a variety of available wood substrates. Well-prepared panels will outlast canvas and will not deteriorate due to moisture and temperature changes.

Artists have many choices when painting on a wood substrate, so one must be careful in choosing the right panel and sealing it well. Using wood as a painting surface can create problems for a painter. As it absorbs moisture, it is subject to expansion and contraction. Permanent warping and splitting also may occur due to the grain structure inherent in solid wood panels. Plywood such as Baltic Birch is better than a solid wood panel because the layering process reduces the tendency to warp and split. However, the grain in plywood can create additional work for a painter who wants a smooth surface.

The Use of Hardbord - A Better Alternative

In 1924, William H. Mason solved many of the problems presented by solid wood panels when he invented hardboard, which is now commonly known as Masonite. The manufacture of hardboard consists of breaking down wood into its basic fibers. These wood fibers are then permanently bound together under extreme heat and pressure, using the natural lignin to reconstitute and bind the fibers in their new form The result is an extremely hard, grainless panel of uniform thickness and density, offering a dimensional stability not found in natural wood products.

From this site:

http://www.arttalk.com/archives/artv0908.htm

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:48 pm

Could the wood be wrongly identified? I am leery of the thing, too, but one thing I love about the thought of a painting Lizzie is that it would account for the room switch with Emma: she'd be trading a northern exposure for a southern one!

--Lyddie

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:50 pm

Good heavans the bordens were stabbed to death? It's time to start redoing the history books.

As for the letter of complaint about the bird-I was under the impression that Lizzie always signed her name L.A. Borden. At least she didn't spell her own name wrong. I have seen Lizzie items on EBAY wherein she has spelled her name Bordon.

Gary

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:57 pm

Thats totally possible, Lyddie, its hard to tell as the front and back of the piece are painted. On the back of the piece there seems to be a name stamped into the board: PAUL.JANIC.1070 What thats all about, I don't know, did an internet search and came up with nothing.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:40 am

When I saw this painting on EBay, I laughed so hard I cried... had to go reapply my mascara !

Tracy...

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:33 am

It's not a great painting but it does show some talent, but I'm no art critic. I think if Lizzie could have painted that well there would be more paintings by her and it would be in some of the books. Looks more like an Audubon type of painting to me.

Susan, I make out the first word on the back as "PANTE' or "PAITE", but it's not at all clear.

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:40 am

i can't help but chuckle at the seller's idea.

but i would have it that she painted it on the porch of maplecroft -- and it was stolen by an angry servant.

william · Post by **william** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:56 am

Your observation is correct, Gary. Lizzie signed her name "L. A. Borden" on the noisy bird letter.
The eBay seller was in error.

Lizzie also signed her name Lizbeth A. Borden and Lizzie A. Borden on occasion. Two of the authenticated books in her library bore the initials "L. A. B."

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:02 am

Thanks, Harry. I looked at it again blown up and maybe its something like PAT'D? PATENTED....? Maybe its just the patent for the art board its on? I can tell you that the finish on the back of the piece is Strie-The word strie' is a french word, meaning to comb through the glaze mixture with dry dragging tools such as a brush or comb, in order to create fine lines and to reveal the base coat color underneath.

william · Post by **william** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:16 am

IF the painting was given to someone in 1888, and IF it was painted on Masonite, which was first
manufactured in 1924, it's got to be a fake.

I emailed the seller - awaiting his reply.

william · Post by **william** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:05 pm

Below is the seller's answer to my inquiry:

"You asked:
'I am interested in this item, but I am troubled that the painting in question was done in the 1800s. It is my understanding that Masonite wasn't manufactured untill 1924.

I wish I had more info to give you, the board that it is painted on is stamped 1888 on the back, I tried to take a pic of it, bu t it doesn't come out very well.
I call it masonite, but it might not be. Also. all the information that I have came from the current owner, the granddaughter of the Sunday School student who received it as a gift from Lizzie. If you have any other questions, I am more than happy to pass them on to the owner. Are you in the New England area? If so we can arrange a viewing for you. Thank you for your interest."

. . .and now you know the rest of the story.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:51 pm

Thanks so much, William! Well, I wish I were close enough by to go take a look at it in person at least. So, I guess those stamped letters on the back are the date, with that in mind, it looks like it might be:

DATE. JAN 16. 1?70

I don't see an 1888, but, that just might be my eyes.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:50 pm

The Knowlton papers are filled with many wild letters and notes offering advice and information. In line with the subject of this thread, whether Lizzie could paint, I found this:

Knowlton Papers, page 142, HK141:

"... Miss B. the actual actor in the fearful drama. Motive is plain. Had tried all kinds of things, art, painting, music school - failed in all - record - bad - She was a failure in one & all. Went to Europe against Fathers will - spent a great deal of money. This is bad. Here begins career of crime. Know of a case, exactly like. When child travels & spends money goes in bad company when away from home - would in desperation, commit murder, for money - case - analogous. Quiet town of Fall River did not suit the Miss Borden - had tasted of apple of knowledge. Wanted more money to go abroad with. Knew she could not get it - for her Father refused to honor a draft on him - for ten days - from her, when she was abroad. Hence motive was easily money to gratify her desire for a life of luxury & travel, probably with questionable company, if she went alone. ..."

This same letter also mentions that perhaps Lizzie met a "mash" while in Europe and that he was the deed doer.

The mention of Andrew holding back ten days on sending Lizzie additional funds also ties in with another thread we were discussing.

This letter (undated in 1892) was written by a Wallace L. Folsom. The B Glossary says that in 1893 he was a gardner in New Haven, CT.

One wonders whether people like this start rumors or simply repeat them.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:58 pm

That's a very interesting find, Har!
Thanks.
It does give us more to ponder.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:37 pm

Thanks, Harry, really interesting find! Well, we know that Lizzie played the piano and quit that. Art? Hmmm. We have that platter with the Christmas scene alleged to have been painted by Lizzie. Where she got the information, I don't know, but, Victoria Lincoln states that upon Lizzie's moving into Maplecroft, she painted flowers on the sides of the clawfoot tubs in the house.

It is in keeping with the time period, ladies were expected to be able to do a multitude of crafty things, needlework, sewing, music, etc. as well as dabble in painting, such as on pottery or do watercolors.

Hmmm. Theres that thing about Lizzie requesting money from Andrew again and him saying no. As Kat says, was this just repeated gossip, or was it a known fact? Made me think of something that the CEO of my old company used to tell us; If one person says you have a tail, don't worry about it. If two people tell you that you have a tail, you might want to look over your shoulder and check. If three people tell you that you have a tail, guess what? You have a tail! How many people have stated that Lizzie tried to get Andrew to float a bank draft for her?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:48 pm

I'm readin Scarlet, the sequel to GWTW, by A. Ripley.
In it, Scarlet goes to Ireland by ship and brings a letter of credit, as well as gold sewn into her stays.
I think this is c. 1875.
I can see a *rich* American carrying such a letter to Europe, as it was the way to do things. Europe was always seeming unstable politically and who knew what might happen over there while the American was visiting? A war, a de-throning- whatever. Better to be prepared.

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:43 pm

Many years ago, I came across a brief reference to Lizzie in a book in our library, and it referred to her as "a dandy painter of porcelain," or something like that. I've never been able to find that little passage again. But since she played the piano and tried acting, it would make sense that she tried painting as well. If only she'd tried writing--her memoirs, maybe?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:55 pm

I hadn't read that Lizzie tried acting, but there were rumors she was writing a play. I don't know where the papers got that information. It might even be somewhat true. I wonder if she would be a good writer or actress?

Here is the painted tray Susan mentioned. I think Bob G. found this on E-bay. Correct me if I'm wrong?

It's pretty, isn't it?

Alice · Post by **Alice** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:59 am

Painting on porcelain and china was a common pastime among young women in the late 1800's. Both my grandmothers painted china plates.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:10 pm

It is pretty and very in keeping with popular pastimes of the day. Do my eyes deceive me, or is that inscribe to Mama? Can any of you with better eyes make out the date? Also, note the tree on the left end--looks as if someone's taken a hatchet to it. . .

--Lyddie

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:44 pm

Kat: There was a a copy of a theater program on display at the FRHS yars ago, when I was there, for Shakespeare's "The Tempest", and Lizzie was listed as playing the part of Miranda.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:08 am

OhMyGosh! Really?! That's new!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:29 pm

Thanks for posting that porcelain platter, Kat, haven't seen it in awhile. You know, now that StuartSWA mentions it, I seem to recall reading the same thing somewhere? I think it may have been mentioned in one of the authors I read but don't have. That does open up a whole new facet to Lizzie that I don't think we've ever delved into, Lizzie the actress! And was August 4th her acting tour-de-force?