Lizzie's cup

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:27 am

I had the oppurtunity to go to Len Rebello's house this weekend. Well,
it's more of a museum really LOL . He had amazing stuff in his home including a painting by Robert Spears Dunning, who is buried in Oak GRove. He also has a lamp that was owned by the BOrdens from SEcond street, BUt my absolute favorite was a silver cup that Abbie gave to
Lizzie in 1868. It is inscribed "Lizzie from Abbie 1868". I was abolutely
in awe that I held something that Lizzie owned and drank out of!!

That made my day!!

darthvader · Post by **darthvader** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:33 am

Items like that are fantastic. How wonderful for it to be in the hands of somebody like him.

Bounds · Post by **Bounds** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:20 pm

How did Mr. Rebello get the cup?

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:18 pm

He purchased it from someone . I forget the name of the person who he got it from, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:52 pm

Hello Bounds!
I've been waiting for your first post!

Welcome!

Were you affiliated with the old LBQ?

We can see if Len would like to explain how he acquired the cup. He once told me, but I think I should ask him first.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:09 pm

I think I would love to have something like that. I bet it wasn't cheap, either.

Oh, by the way, I'm trying to get to Lizzie's place in September, my b-day. Kind of a birthday present to myself. Hope I can swing it!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:37 pm

Cool!

Bounds, sorry if I have scared you away.

But if I'm to ask Len, I'd like to know you want the answer.

william · Post by **william** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:25 pm

Why is the cup engraved "Abbie," and not "Abby?"

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:52 pm

I've wondered about the spelling as well, but have found that people tolerated a broader range of spelling in those days.

What I have wondered was whether the cup was Lizzie's communion cup. I had read that "tankards" were frequently used in New England for communion and the grapevine design reminds me of that. There was no set age to take communion as long as the pastor was convinced the communicant understood and accepted the commitment the act implied. Does Len know if this was its use?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:19 am

He believes it is a communion tankard, yes- and is shaped somewhat more like that -not a christening mug. Using "ie"for names ending in "y" was tremendously popular and fadish in this era. hence Sallie, Nellie, Fannie, Hettie, Annie, Nettie, Lucie, Abbie, Vinnie (Lavinia), etc. etc.

william · Post by **william** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:54 am

I find it difficult to believe that Andrew would shell out good Yankee cash for a cup that was improperly engraved. Correcting this mistake would have been a small task for the engraver.

I find no other instance where "Abbie" was accepted by Mrs. Borden for "Abby"

What about the possiblilty that there were two other people? Not beyond the realm of possibility. Rebello doesn't provide the provenance for the cup. Perhaps he had no detailed information when he purchased it

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:40 am

Actually Len does have the provenance, it has been a topic that has been kept private however. Many collectors in the city of Fall River do have many Lizzie items- but do not advertise the fact for reasons of safety, and some do not want to be pestered by people like us!

Abbie is seen in place of Abby in various places, newpapers, and such. I see it often spelled either way.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:55 pm

Personally, I would like to know the silvermark on the cup. There were so many expert silversmiths in the Taunton area (Silver City) that it would be interesting to know if it were locally made.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:40 pm

I will check tomorrow. Yes, silver marks are a particular hobby of mine too- I collect Victorian silver- particularly butter dishes. Not only Taunton, but Gorham , Providence and Meriden Connecticut pumped out masses of silver until fairly recently. Meriden merged with several other CT silver companies to form International Silver. Here is an interesting site about that merger which happened in 1898. http://www.internationalsilver.com/abou ... istory.php

I have finally acquired, piece at a time here and there, Rogers silverplate 1892 pattern called Columbia, named for the Columbian Exposition. It is a fabulous pattern full of symbolism which is interesting to read about if you scroll down a bit here http://www.the-office.com/estatejewelry/columbia.htm

Those Victorians had a piece of silverware for every purpose!

Do I mind polishing it- no- it is my therapy!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:01 am

The physician's certificate signed by Dr. Dolan August 5th, has "Abbie's" name spelled "Abbie."

The Marriage announcement in the Fall River News of June 8, 1865 spells her name "Abbie D. Gray."

Porter, in his book The Fall River Tragedy spells her name "Abbie."

And then so does the cup spell "Abbie."

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I've been spelling her name "Abbie" for about a year now.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:04 am

Shelley that is so cool about your collecting of silverplate with a tie to the Columbian Exposition!
Sounds interesting!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:52 am

It is fun to have an old Victorian pattern which is still fairly easy to find. The thrill comes in finding a piece really cheap somewhere, having friends know the pattern and hunt for it, and stalking a piece on weekend antiquing jaunts. Compared to today's new patterns, the Victorian silverware is very heavy, fun to use, and very glamorous to put on the table. I just got a tomato server in the pattern- the serving pieces are the most difficult to find- and for some reason KNIVES. The easiest things are teaspoons as there were so many of those made. I think people used knives for a multitude of things and the blades broke.

If you type in Rogers silverplate in ebay, you can see all the great old patterns. I also collect Columbian Expo ruby flash glass. I am positive Lizzie must have brought back some of that from her trip to the Expo- toothpick holder, tumbler, pitcher. Everybody did!

stuartwsa · Post by **stuartwsa** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:53 am

I've often wondered which way was the "real" way to spell her first name. "Abby" strikes me as a nickname (or abbreviation) of "Abigail," where "Abbie" does not (though, it is "Abby" on the family monument at Oak Grove).
Was Abbie's signature in that book that was peddled so many times last year on eBay, that had Lizzie's and Emma's signatures in it?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:56 pm

I suppose either spelling is correct, but it would be good to know how she spelled it. What we have are examples of how everyone else spelled it. Sometimes spellings are regional, I've noticed a tendency toward the "ie" ending in the Southern U.S. while the "y" ending is more common in the Northern U.S.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:29 pm

I believe Tilden-Thurber was founded in 1856. Hope the cup didn't come from there...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:03 pm

Yes "Abby" is on the monument, but then the girls had a say in that!

Lil' Abbie (Potter) says she was named after her, and her grave, I believe says "Abbie."

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:22 pm

Yep, it does read Abbie on Abbie Potter gravestone

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:02 pm

Thanks Jeff!

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:00 am

It would be sad if I didn't knowwhat the gravestone said. I have spent so
much time there over the last couple of yearsI should know what
every Borden related tombstone reads LOL

Hence being dubbed " Cemetary" Jeff by Shelley LOL

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:23 pm

The copy of the death certificate from the City of Fall River reads:

Abby D. (Gray) Borden

but this info probably came from "the girls" as well.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:53 am

It seems that years ago people were much more lax in their spelling. I have done extensive genealogy on my family and it drives me crazy sometimes when I see a name spelled several different ways for the same person. Even the individual themselves will change spellings periodically.

Maybe there was no "right" or "wrong" way to spell Abbie/Abby. I also noticed many times what we see as a "nickname" was actually the persons given name.

Bounds · Post by **Bounds** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:22 pm

Kat,

You didn't scare me away. :grin: I just don't check in very often. I wasn't affiliated with the LBQ, I just wrote a couple of letters to the editor. You don't have to get the specifics from Len. I was just curious about the history of the cup - did Lizzie keep it until she died, did she display it at Maplecroft, etc.

Bounds

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:23 pm

Well what do you know! I knew it was you! I used to love your letters!

I consider that affiliated...I mean, Maynard published you after all!
That is so cool!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:42 pm

I will check with Mr. Rebello.
THank you for sticking with Lizzie all this time!

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:56 am

Any updates from Len on this, Kat?

If the item held deep religious or sentimental significance to Lizzie, you would think she would have kept it.

Though I've had the personal experience of parents giving away "my items" as something I had outgrown when they were things I really wanted to keep.

Is there anyone on the forum of a Protestant background who can clarify the use of communion cups (tankards) between Baptists and Congregationalists. Andrew and Abby were originally married in a Baptist church and Swansea was known as an early home to a Baptist community (when they were considered heretics in other areas). As a Catholic, I'm lost at the nuances here. I don't even know the right questions to ask. Would they have been used by Baptists, but considered of no use in a Congregational service?