Lizzie ostracized.

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:09 pm

Hello,

This is my first post here. I was on the board once before when it was the Dark Rose ones, but since I lost both the name I used and the password, I thought I'd rejoin up again after seeing the Lizzie special on Discovery. Which was good, btw, but didn't really reveal anything new.
My question, why, after the trial did all of Lizzie's friends just seem to abandon her? It seems like no one in town wanted to talk to her at all. I also can't understand why she'd even want to stay in Fall River after the trial and live with people chatting about her behind her back constantly. Which I'm sure they did.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:07 pm

Hi Julie!!!
It's good to see you back.
We mentioned you while on our trip in the context of your local Historical Society! I promise not to ask you overly much if you have stopped in there, again.

We were also talking, in the car, about Providence, RI.
Len showed us where Emma lived at Hope Street and at the Minden Arms which is now a student dorm.
Well, it seems in relation to Tilden-Thurber and the Westminster shopping district which Lizbeth favored, it is not far from Emma's living quarters! So, when we hear these girls never saw each other again, I'd ask, "How do we know they didn't meet in Providence?" Would Lizbeth go there and not see her sister? They still held property in common.

In this case, I think Lizbeth probably had more out-of-town friends she visited than we have read about, maybe even her sister. Just because Fall River didn't know, doesn't mean there weren't friends and good times for Lizbeth, I'm beginning to realize.

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:14 pm

Kat @ Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:07 pm wrote:Hi Julie!!!
It's good to see you back.
We mentioned you while on our trip in the context of your local Historical Society! I promise not to ask you overly much if you have stopped in there, again.

Wow, who knew anyone would remember little me.

We were also talking, in the car, about Providence, RI.
Len showed us where Emma lived at Hope Street and at the Minden Arms which is now a student dorm.
Well, it seems in relation to Tilden-Thurber and the Westminster shopping district which Lizbeth favored, it is not far from Emma's living quarters! So, when we hear these girls never saw each other again, I'd ask, "How do we know they didn't meet in Providence?" Would Lizbeth go there and not see her sister? They still held property in common.

I didn't know Emma had a place in Providence. Just the one in Newmarket, which I still drive by twice a day, when I'm going to work. I do think of Emma sometimes when I'm going by there. One of the books said she died after falling down the stairs in the house. I think it was Spiering's book. The one that everyone says was wrong. It's funny that every book I've read on the subject really leads me to believe their theory is correct.

In this case, I think Lizbeth probably had more out-of-town friends she visited than we have read about, maybe even her sister. Just because Fall River didn't know, doesn't mean there weren't friends and good times for Lizbeth, I'm beginning to realize.

It's possible Lizzie decided not to talk to her former friends because maybe she knew they were all talking trash behind her back. I haven't a clue. It would have been nice to have been there at the time.

Oh I have another question, do I have to post a certain number of notes before I can get into the privy? I can't seem to access that part of the boards at all. I really want to go.

Julie

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:17 pm

Oops, I really goofed on that quoting thing.

Sorry. I'll try to do it better next time. Apparently I should have previewed my reply first. Sigh.

Julie

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:21 pm

I have often wondered if part of Lizzie's behavior was due to shame.

I also think most of her friendships were casual-- not close relationships where a person would forgive anything.

She dropped Alice for telling the truth....

Possibly the murder (or at the very least everyone's reaction to her the first time she went to church) was Lizzie's "Big Ol' Cold Sore". It kept her from appearing in public unless she had to!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:34 pm

Julie, write to Stef and tell her who you are and she can open the Privy door.
You have a "grandfather clause", like another here who also asked!

I read the white quote part just fine to see your answer.

Of course we remember you!

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:48 pm

Audrey @ Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:21 pm wrote:I have often wondered if part of Lizzie's behavior was due to shame.

I also think most of her friendships were casual-- not close relationships where a person would forgive anything.

She dropped Alice for telling the truth....

Possibly the murder (or at the very least everyone's reaction to her the first time she went to church) was Lizzie's "Big Ol' Cold Sore". It kept her from appearing in public unless she had to!

That's entirely possible. I'm sure being acquitted of a crime at any time still makes people wonder if you got away with something, or not. Especially since everything was all circumstantial evidence. I'm sure most of the people in Fall River were left wondering if Lizzie had gotten away with murder. Or maybe they knew for certain she had.
Didn't she go to church and sit way in the back and no one sat next to her or talked to her? I remember, vaguely, reading that in one of the books.

Julie

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:49 pm

Kat @ Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:34 pm wrote:Julie, write to Stef and tell her who you are and she can open the Privy door.
You have a "grandfather clause", like another here who also asked!

I read the white quote part just fine to see your answer.

Of course we remember you!

Hi Kat,

Thanks, I did ask. Hopefully tomorrow I'll be able to get into it. Thank you for helping me out. I think have the quote thing now. It's not exactly like AOL.

Julie

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:21 pm

I just read "Bitter Harvest" by Ann Rule. It reminded me of Lizzie, very chilling. A woman so
depressed and unhappy she didn't know what she
was doing. It gave me nightmares. Horrible Book upsetting but a
good psycho-analagy of this type of mind-set.
The scary thing was that I could understand this, I
lived with a guy for one year who made me feel like
she did. She lived with it for 16 years. Lizzie lived with this kind of situation her whole life too. I wonder if we should think more on Lizzie's mind?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:42 am

I think some of Lizzie's problems were created by herself: such as her staying in Fall River, writing a complaining letter to a Brayton, involving herself in the theatre and theatre folk, and the Tilden-Thurber affair. She also lost friendly neighbors by making pacts with them over parcels of land on French Street and then disregarding her word. She basically did as she pleased. It took a lawyer-neighbor to put a stop to her building her garage where she promised she wouldn't. She also built fences where neighbors complained and added tall hedges which blocked some views.

The friends Lizzie had were new friends who she met after the trial, like Helen Leighton, or Nance O'Neil, or even her servants (whom I believe she treated in a friendly manner).

Then there were those yearly news articles which reminded the populace of Fall River of the dastardly crime, with a strong focus on Lizzie as still the only suspect.
I don't know how she stayed or managed a life in Fall River after 1893. It must have been hard.

I've read or heard tales that the ladies who stood by Lizzie until 1893 drifted away because of public opinion. They faced ostracism if they kept up a friendship with Lizzie, as if she was Typhoid Mary!

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:19 am

I get the feeling that when Lizzie was acquitted, she thought by moving up on the hill, and not leaving Fall River she would show once and for all that she was “Innocent” she did not run away, and probably thought that sooner or later with the passing of time the case would be forgotten, who would imagine back then how this monster would grow? So much so that we are all fascinated and talking about it 112 years later! And I wouldn’t feel to sorry for Lizzie, she was after all a Millionaire (and probably a murderer) thankfully for her she did have a huge amount of money, so she could do has she pleased, we all know money brings great power, this wouldn’t have happened if she was poor, and I think there would have been a lot of snobbery from her old friends, moving to a bigger better house and neighbourhood just down the road would have caused petty jealousies I would imagine, not only did she have the nerve to stay in Fall River she spits in their eye and spends murdered-miser Andrews hard earned cash on luxuries beyond most of their wildest dreams.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:51 am

I agree with Kat.... I think Lizzie just didn't "know how to act". The unspoken set of rules we all follow in our families and communities. ie-- No one ever tells us not to mention Uncle Henri likes his schnapps a little too much or that you do not tell people out loud they have cliff hangers-- You just swipe at your own nose while looking at them until they get the hint. Things you just seem to know. I think Lizzie was just dull enough not to "get it".

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:54 am

jamfaws @ Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:19 am wrote: And I wouldn’t feel to sorry for Lizzie, she was after all a Millionaire (and probably a murderer) thankfully for her she did have a huge amount of money, so she could do has she pleased, we all know money brings great power, this wouldn’t have happened if she was poor

Assuming her guilt-- Do you all feel Lizzie would "do it all over again" if she had known "then what she knew now"

I have often wondered (assuming her guilt) if it was all worth it to her.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:30 am

I am in two minds whether she is guilty or not, but assuming she is, well if she thinks back to the years she spent in prison waiting for the trial she probably wouldn't do it again, but living in the big house afterwards, with a fortune to spend would maybe sway her vote, I wonder how generous Andrew would have been if he had died a natrual death and left a will? (assuming Abby outlived him) would she have had the oppotunity to have the same amount of Luxury? we will never know, also if Lizzie had moved away from Fall River after the trial and changed her name we could be in the situation we are in now with Bridgett, so she did us all a favour by staying put! of course it's much. much worse for her if she is innocent, what a burden (or Borden) to carry around for the rest of your life, knowing everyone thnks you killed someone you loved (as well as someone you hated) so in that respect I say "good on you Lizzie Borden" live where you want to and to hell with everyone else.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:42 am

Again we have nothing in writing from Lizzie herself. The most we know about her thoughts comes from Helen Leighton. This is in Rebello, page 320:

" ... Miss Borden was bitterly unhappy. Tragedy and sorrow ever overshadowed her. ...
Much of the time she was desperately unhappy and she had days of most terrible depression. I know that in later years she questioned the wisdom of having remained in Fall River."

It's interesting that Leighton specifically mentions Lizzie regretting staying FR in "later years". Obviously regretting the murders is different from regretting staying in FR.

If her objective was to achieve acceptance in Fall River society that certainly wasn't accomplished. Would Lizzie have thought that she would be accused? If so, then certainly she would have known that that would have ended all hopes of that goal.

Kat and I have several times discussed whether Lizzie would ever have been accepted in that society, murders or no murders.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:28 pm

Rebello-page 293 (from the Fall River Daily Globe 1894)
Many times she met her old associates in the street and they quietly pass (ed) her without a sign of recognition and since her release, it is alleged that many of the members have cut her dead. Lizzie never attended any meetings after she was acquitted. “It has been known that individual members spoke as if they would ‘ostracize’ her socially if she did.”

(Boston Advertiser 1894)
Miss Lizzie Borden has been heard to say that she has no love in her heart for Fall River

Miss Lizzie is in very poor health. At present a lady friend from Worchester is staying with her. Miss Lizzie is a nervous wreck, and will probably never recover.

of course the above quotes from the long article say Many and not ALL associates, and it is "Alleged", so how much of these news storys from the time do we take as Fact?

diana · Post by **diana** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:04 pm

When I visited the Fall River Historical Society in May, Michael Martins told me the Society is bringing out a book in the near future which will put the Borden case into a social perspective and show that Lizzie should never have entertained expectations that she would ever fit into Fall River 'society'. (It's obvious from my notes that I took this to mean even before the murders --but that was not something he said directly, so it's possible I misconstrued that part of it.)

Apparently the book will be in the form of an illustrated history of the Hill.

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:35 pm

jamfaws @ Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:30 am wrote:I am in two minds whether she is guilty or not, but assuming she is, well if she thinks back to the years she spent in prison waiting for the trial she probably wouldn't do it again, but living in the big house afterwards, with a fortune to spend would maybe sway her vote, I wonder how generous Andrew would have been if he had died a natrual death and left a will? (assuming Abby outlived him) would she have had the oppotunity to have the same amount of Luxury? we will never know, also if Lizzie had moved away from Fall River after the trial and changed her name we could be in the situation we are in now with Bridgett, so she did us all a favour by staying put! of course it's much. much worse for her if she is innocent, what a burden (or Borden) to carry around for the rest of your life, knowing everyone thnks you killed someone you loved (as well as someone you hated) so in that respect I say "good on you Lizzie Borden" live where you want to and to hell with everyone else.

Would Lizzie have been able to move away and change her name? Granted she lived when the press wasn't as blood thirsty as they often seem now, but her face, even if it was a sketch, was all over the country. I often get the feeling that Lizzie moved up on the hill just to spite everyone. Sort of just to rub everyone's nose in the fact that she may or may not have gotten away with murder. There are times when I'm convinced she did, then I'll read something and think she didn't. I have definately come to the conclusion that even if she didn't do it, she knew who did it.
If she didn't do it, the treatment she got from the townspeople was really poor. But if she did do it and I'm sure several of the townspeople probably believed she did, maybe she stayed there as punishment of some sort for doing it. Maybe she felt she had to stay there.

Julie

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:40 pm

[quote=

Assuming her guilt-- Do you all feel Lizzie would "do it all over again" if she had known "then what she knew now"

I have often wondered (assuming her guilt) if it was all worth it to her.[/quote]

This is an interesting question. I wonder if getting all that money and having to suffer from people staring and talking about her was really worth it.
I think just about everyone of us wishes they'd done something differently in their past.
It would really depend on her situation before. If she was a victim of some kind of abuse from her father I would think she probably would do it again. But if she was doing it for the money and nothing else, probably not. At least I would hope not. Like I posted before, I swing back and forth between her really having done it and not. It depends on what I've been reading about the case. Her inquest testimony certainly makes her seem confused, which implies she's guilty of something, but doesn't necessarily make her guilty of murder. I still often wonder why John Morse's alibi was so airtight. Almost like he knew he had to have one. Makes me wonder if he offed Abby and Lizzie offed her father.

Julie

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:49 pm

As far as Lizzie moving....

I personally feel, innocent or guilty that no one could have really expected her to remain in that slaughter house? Who would want to stay in such a house? Berk!

Likewise-- we all tend to live in the nicest accommodations our circumstances allow.

Elisandra · Post by **Elisandra** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:51 pm

diana @ Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:04 pm wrote:When I visited the Fall River Historical Society in May, Michael Martins told me the Society is bringing out a book in the near future which will put the Borden case into a social perspective and show that Lizzie should never have entertained expectations that she would ever fit into Fall River 'society'. (It's obvious from my notes that I took this to mean even before the murders --but that was not something he said directly, so it's possible I misconstrued that part of it.)

Apparently the book will be in the form of an illustrated history of the Hill.

Any new Lizzie book is great for me. It's been awhile since I've found anything new. It almost sounds like that historical look at Fall River, that I think someone here mentioned. I haven't seen that. But I'd like to pick that up too. Just to look at the photos of how the area looked in Lizzie's day.

Julie