I have had this topic up before, but I will try my luck once more (I just cant get this out of my head).
- What paper did Morse read that morning? An old or an new one?
- If it was new, to wich door did it came? And who got it?
The reson for this is that i just HAVE to know how many times the front door got opend and closed before Andrew came home. I need to know that before i write my fist version of my Essay.
That damn paper
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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That damn paper
"I did it for Rome"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
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FairhavenGuy
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Jimmy,
In her inquest testimony Lizzie says that when she came downstairs, her father was reading the Providence Journal.
Uncle John had already left by that time, but that would have been the newspaper there that morning.
I have no idea when or where it would have been delivered. All I know is the milk came to the back door.
In her inquest testimony Lizzie says that when she came downstairs, her father was reading the Providence Journal.
Uncle John had already left by that time, but that would have been the newspaper there that morning.
I have no idea when or where it would have been delivered. All I know is the milk came to the back door.
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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Thanks FairhavenGuy!
But dose that really tell us if that was todays newspaper or an old one?
If it was todays i would like to belive that it was delivered to the front door (it must take a lot of time if the paper boy must go in to every back door). But if it was so, why did not Bridget say that she got the paper in the trial? Bridget seams to remember everyting else
So this is a pussle...
If it was todays paper....then who got it and why hasent someone said that he or she got it (unless it was Abby or Andrew).
If it was an old paper....then why do (at least) two people sit and read something the should have read earlier.
Why i am so obessed with that is becouse i think the anser of the quest is in the front door. The bolt was on then the police came and i should not have been. But if the whole house had FORGOTTEN to unlock the bolt (and the nigth lock) on the front door that would get us an anser. Licons mystery wittnes that saw the door open and close during the morning is not to be found (strange...).
So, if we knew that the door had been open and closed (to get the paper or anything else) we can guess that the bolt was locked by someone who did not know that the bolt was not suposed to be looked during the day. That wolud prove that there was Mr/Mrs X in the house that morning. And that person may be the murder (or at least have something to do with it).
So close and still so far away...
But dose that really tell us if that was todays newspaper or an old one?
If it was todays i would like to belive that it was delivered to the front door (it must take a lot of time if the paper boy must go in to every back door). But if it was so, why did not Bridget say that she got the paper in the trial? Bridget seams to remember everyting else
So this is a pussle...
If it was todays paper....then who got it and why hasent someone said that he or she got it (unless it was Abby or Andrew).
If it was an old paper....then why do (at least) two people sit and read something the should have read earlier.
Why i am so obessed with that is becouse i think the anser of the quest is in the front door. The bolt was on then the police came and i should not have been. But if the whole house had FORGOTTEN to unlock the bolt (and the nigth lock) on the front door that would get us an anser. Licons mystery wittnes that saw the door open and close during the morning is not to be found (strange...).
So, if we knew that the door had been open and closed (to get the paper or anything else) we can guess that the bolt was locked by someone who did not know that the bolt was not suposed to be looked during the day. That wolud prove that there was Mr/Mrs X in the house that morning. And that person may be the murder (or at least have something to do with it).
So close and still so far away...
"I did it for Rome"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
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Harry
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Hi Jimmy. Victoria Lincoln's book has something on the newspaper.
"The family subscribed to the Providence Journal, a solid, conservative, well-written sheet, to which my own family also subscribed. To insure its proper delivery, it came in a wrapper bearing the subscriber's address. This wrapping, if done by the dealer, cost extra. The thrifty method was to supply the newsdealer with wrappers that one had preaddressed."
Assuming this to be true, I would guess that the paper came in the mail. There is no record that I know of that the Borden's had home delivery of their mail or that of a newspaper.
Andrew, as far as we know, stopped at the Post Office that morning to pick up the mail and send Lizzie's mail. Did he pick up a newspaper in his mail? We don't know. He was seen carrying a white parcel upon his return home. Was that a folded newspaper?
The paragraph above is from Lincoln and I don't know of this information appearing anywhere else. Lincoln states that Lizzie was the one who addressed the mailing wrappers. Lincoln even goes so far as to say that she addressed them on the deak in her own room. How Lincoln knows all these details is beyond me.
"The family subscribed to the Providence Journal, a solid, conservative, well-written sheet, to which my own family also subscribed. To insure its proper delivery, it came in a wrapper bearing the subscriber's address. This wrapping, if done by the dealer, cost extra. The thrifty method was to supply the newsdealer with wrappers that one had preaddressed."
Assuming this to be true, I would guess that the paper came in the mail. There is no record that I know of that the Borden's had home delivery of their mail or that of a newspaper.
Andrew, as far as we know, stopped at the Post Office that morning to pick up the mail and send Lizzie's mail. Did he pick up a newspaper in his mail? We don't know. He was seen carrying a white parcel upon his return home. Was that a folded newspaper?
The paragraph above is from Lincoln and I don't know of this information appearing anywhere else. Lincoln states that Lizzie was the one who addressed the mailing wrappers. Lincoln even goes so far as to say that she addressed them on the deak in her own room. How Lincoln knows all these details is beyond me.
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Nancie
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diana
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We've gone over the newspaper wrapper question a number of times as anyone who wants to wade through the pile of "pink" ones in the archives can see. But not enough to come to a definite conclusion about them, I guess. Certainly we can't be as definite as Victoria.
Lizzie does testify at the inquest about some wrappers.
"Q. After your father went out, you remained there either in the kitchen or dining room all the time?
A. I went in the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers."
But can we safely use Lincoln's interpretation and say these wrappers were for the Providence Journal -- especially when Lincoln artistically removes Lizzie from the sitting room and places Lizzie in her bedroom when addressing them?
As far as the lock on the door -- we guessed about that at one point, too.
Apparently the Providence Journal was an evening paper and the Providence News was a morning paper. (Source: www.historybuff.com) So, if Andrew's paper of choice really was the Journal, (again relying on Lincoln) he was probably reading the previous day's newspaper and would not have had to open the door that morning to take it in.
Speculation based on speculation -- never a solid jumping-off place.
Lizzie does testify at the inquest about some wrappers.
"Q. After your father went out, you remained there either in the kitchen or dining room all the time?
A. I went in the sitting room long enough to direct some paper wrappers."
But can we safely use Lincoln's interpretation and say these wrappers were for the Providence Journal -- especially when Lincoln artistically removes Lizzie from the sitting room and places Lizzie in her bedroom when addressing them?
As far as the lock on the door -- we guessed about that at one point, too.
Apparently the Providence Journal was an evening paper and the Providence News was a morning paper. (Source: www.historybuff.com) So, if Andrew's paper of choice really was the Journal, (again relying on Lincoln) he was probably reading the previous day's newspaper and would not have had to open the door that morning to take it in.
Speculation based on speculation -- never a solid jumping-off place.
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Harry
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diana
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Oh, I see I got mixed up there. Jimmy, I misread your original post and somehow got the idea you were asking about what Andrew was reading. But you actually asked about John reading a newspaper. And you mean before Andrew left, right?
But how do we know John read the paper that morning? I didn't see that mentioned in a very quick search of his testimony and of Bridget's. Is it in there? -- or is there another source?
If one or both of them did read the paper that morning -- and Lizzie claims that Andrew did before he left -- it is not inconceivable that it was the paper from the previous evening. Perhaps the daylight was gone before Andrew finished reading on Wednesday night -- and then John came and they were talking. In that case, possibly John read last night's paper in the morning and after he was gone Andrew took the opportunity to finish the part he hadn't read yet?
But how do we know John read the paper that morning? I didn't see that mentioned in a very quick search of his testimony and of Bridget's. Is it in there? -- or is there another source?
If one or both of them did read the paper that morning -- and Lizzie claims that Andrew did before he left -- it is not inconceivable that it was the paper from the previous evening. Perhaps the daylight was gone before Andrew finished reading on Wednesday night -- and then John came and they were talking. In that case, possibly John read last night's paper in the morning and after he was gone Andrew took the opportunity to finish the part he hadn't read yet?
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Kat
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It might be easier if you did not rely on the newspaper, but did take note of what Fleet says Lizzie said about a man coming there that morning. At least this is in a statement form:
"A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”
--Witness Statements, pg. 2
Also there is Lizzie's story that someone brought a note, or a note was received, told by a harried Mrs. Churchill, in Doherty/Harrington's notes in the Witness Statements, pg. 11 (However, notice the man at the door is now contradicted):
"Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of."
--If Lizzie neglected to unlock the front door that morning, maybe it was because she thought Andrew had already used that door to meet a business acquaintance?
"A man came here this morning about nine o’clock, I think he wanted to hire a store, talked English. I did not see him; heard father shut the door, and think the man went away.”
--Witness Statements, pg. 2
Also there is Lizzie's story that someone brought a note, or a note was received, told by a harried Mrs. Churchill, in Doherty/Harrington's notes in the Witness Statements, pg. 11 (However, notice the man at the door is now contradicted):
"Where is your mother? She had a note to go and see someone who is sick. I dont know but they killed her too. Has any man been to see your father this morning? Not that I know of."
--If Lizzie neglected to unlock the front door that morning, maybe it was because she thought Andrew had already used that door to meet a business acquaintance?
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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I write this at school (have not internet at home yet) so i call it a misstake that i did not have what Lincon said about the paper in my head.
But i thinks the problem with Lincon is that she has a few orginal facts that no one else seams to have. I cant really say i trust everything she writes (a shame that she is dead, i wolud have had a lot of qutstions for here).
But i guess that we, with the information we have, can say that the front door was not opend to get a paper. Feels good to have that out of my head...
Fleets version of what Lizzie said to him is very intresting. But correct me if iam wrong, she never did mention this again? So why dident she (if she really did inte he fist place)? And why did not the police asked hard about this at the inquest?
That damn door still pusselse me. At a time I was wondering if a Mr/Mrs X was letting Mr/Mrs Y out of the door. But why wolud Mr/Mrs Y then stay? To wait for Andrew?
Is this making any sence?
But i thinks the problem with Lincon is that she has a few orginal facts that no one else seams to have. I cant really say i trust everything she writes (a shame that she is dead, i wolud have had a lot of qutstions for here).
But i guess that we, with the information we have, can say that the front door was not opend to get a paper. Feels good to have that out of my head...
Fleets version of what Lizzie said to him is very intresting. But correct me if iam wrong, she never did mention this again? So why dident she (if she really did inte he fist place)? And why did not the police asked hard about this at the inquest?
That damn door still pusselse me. At a time I was wondering if a Mr/Mrs X was letting Mr/Mrs Y out of the door. But why wolud Mr/Mrs Y then stay? To wait for Andrew?
Is this making any sence?
"I did it for Rome"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
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Kat
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Trial
Fleet
["A man Came", quoting Lizzie]
Page 464
Q. Anything else?
A. I then asked her if she had any idea who could have killed her father and mother. Then she said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child." I then asked her if there had been any one around this morning whom she would suspect of having done the killing of these people, and she said that she had not seen any one, but about nine o'clock that morning a man came to the door and was talking with her father. I asked her what they were talking about, and she said she thought they were talking about a store, and he spoke like an Englishman. I think about all the conversation I had with her at that time--- Oh, no. Miss Russell was in the room, and she says to Lizzie, "Tell him all; tell him what you was telling me." And she looked at Miss Russell, and then she says, "About two weeks ago a man came to the house, to the front door, and had some talk with father, and talked as though he was angry." And I asked her what he was talking about. She said, "He was talking about a store, and father said to him, 'I cannot let you have the store for that purpose;’ "---The man seemed to be angry. I then came down stairs.
Q. Is that all that you recall at that first interview with her?
A. I think it is.
Q. I am not quite sure, but was anything said about a note at that time?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. If you will state it, Mr. Fleet, if it comes to your mind?
A. She asked---oh no, it was not at that time. I
Page 465
don't think it was. I think it was the second interview.
--Here is the man -And the note. Sounds like you can work in an opened front door if you need one.
Fleet
["A man Came", quoting Lizzie]
Page 464
Q. Anything else?
A. I then asked her if she had any idea who could have killed her father and mother. Then she said, "She is not my mother, sir; she is my stepmother; my mother died when I was a child." I then asked her if there had been any one around this morning whom she would suspect of having done the killing of these people, and she said that she had not seen any one, but about nine o'clock that morning a man came to the door and was talking with her father. I asked her what they were talking about, and she said she thought they were talking about a store, and he spoke like an Englishman. I think about all the conversation I had with her at that time--- Oh, no. Miss Russell was in the room, and she says to Lizzie, "Tell him all; tell him what you was telling me." And she looked at Miss Russell, and then she says, "About two weeks ago a man came to the house, to the front door, and had some talk with father, and talked as though he was angry." And I asked her what he was talking about. She said, "He was talking about a store, and father said to him, 'I cannot let you have the store for that purpose;’ "---The man seemed to be angry. I then came down stairs.
Q. Is that all that you recall at that first interview with her?
A. I think it is.
Q. I am not quite sure, but was anything said about a note at that time?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. If you will state it, Mr. Fleet, if it comes to your mind?
A. She asked---oh no, it was not at that time. I
Page 465
don't think it was. I think it was the second interview.
--Here is the man -And the note. Sounds like you can work in an opened front door if you need one.
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Jimmy S. Windeskog
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If Lizzie lied about this man, then why did she not stick to the story? If the was the killer it makes no sence that she first would lie about this man and then never speak of him again. At least she should sais something at the inquest.
Then again, why would she not talk about this man if she dient do it?
The only way this make sence is if she knew this man and one way or the other feel that she had tp protect him, or her self from him.
Then again, why would she not talk about this man if she dient do it?
The only way this make sence is if she knew this man and one way or the other feel that she had tp protect him, or her self from him.
"I did it for Rome"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
Livia, the play "I, Cladius"
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Kat
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Masterton thinks this man was Clegg, he of the new store.
I haven't refreshed my memory of Masterton lately, but he is correct that Clegg was dealing with Andrew that week, and Clegg himself says he was on the lookout for Andrew Thursday morning, at his store.
Apparently Clegg came to the house Tuesday AND Wednesday of the murder week. In fact, Andrew saw Clegg twice on Tuesday, according to Clegg.
Fleet said Lizzie thought it was an Englishman who came on Thursday, which Clegg was, but she may be using his previous visits to confuse them with Thursday's "A Man Came." Fleet's memory of Lizzie's *original* version was that the man who came "talked English", rather than outright saying it was an "Englishman.".
I think Clegg was Masterton's real suspect, but without much to go on- no proof- he left it up to his readers.
Preliminary Hearing
Clegg
Q. Did you see him that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. I first saw him opposite my store in front of Shove and Fisher’s. I had occasion to see him that morning, I wanted to see him. I called him across the street into my store to make arrangements for the store that I had taken of him. I had considerable talk with him. It would
Page 213
be 20 minutes past ten when I called him in; it would be nine minutes; I know he left my store, 6 No. Main street at exactly 29 minutes past.
Q. Is that store in the Borden Block?
A. No Sir, Richardson Block.
Q. Opposite Borden Block?
A. No Sir, next to Bennett’s Drug store.
Q. Which way did he go when he left your store?
A. He went south.
Q. It was just 29 minutes past when he left your store?
A. Just.
Q. That is the last time you saw him?
A. Yes Sir.
.....
214
Q. Was Mr. Borden ever in your store before, at this No. Main street store?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. On the Tuesday when I first made arrangements to take the store.
Q. Tuesday before he was killed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time was he there then?
A. After dinner I think. I would not be positive.
______
Trial
Clegg
Q. Had you gone to Mr. Borden's house to visit him with reference to this store?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When and how many times did you go there?
A. Twice.
Q. Do you remember what days you went there?
A. Yes, Tuesday the first day.
Q. Tuesday of this same week?
A. Tuesday, on the second.
Q. Tuesday, the 2d of August, 1892. What day did you next go there?
A. Wednesday.
Q. The following day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that you were there the two days preceding the homicide?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who let you in either of those times?
A. The servant Bridget, as I afterwards learned.
Q. Both times?
A. No. I think he let me in the first time. Bridget let me in the second time.
Q. How long did you remain in the house with him?
A. Well, about ten minutes.
Q. Did you go in the front or rear door?
A. Front door.
Q. What was the subject of your conversation?
A. Hiring the store.
Page 175
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) Let me see if we understand it right. Were you in a store that is nearer the City Hall than the one where you are now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you wanted to meet him at the store where you now are that morning?
A. What is that?
Q. Did you want to see him at No. 92 Main street that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you see him there?
A. I saw him in 6 North Main street, but I didn't see him at 92.
_____
BTW: Dr. Bowen also came by Wednesday morning- and he noted who he thought was Lizzie scrambling up the front stairs. He saw Andrew (about his health) but did not see Abby or Lizzie that visit. That's 2 callers on Wednesday, one we know of in the morning, probably both at the front door.
Morse came to visit on Wednesday as well.
Wednesday after supper, Mrs. Dr. Bowen came over, right after Lizzie went off to see Alice Russell.
Just counting visitors, to see how much activity there was around the Second Street house of a day...
I haven't refreshed my memory of Masterton lately, but he is correct that Clegg was dealing with Andrew that week, and Clegg himself says he was on the lookout for Andrew Thursday morning, at his store.
Apparently Clegg came to the house Tuesday AND Wednesday of the murder week. In fact, Andrew saw Clegg twice on Tuesday, according to Clegg.
Fleet said Lizzie thought it was an Englishman who came on Thursday, which Clegg was, but she may be using his previous visits to confuse them with Thursday's "A Man Came." Fleet's memory of Lizzie's *original* version was that the man who came "talked English", rather than outright saying it was an "Englishman.".
I think Clegg was Masterton's real suspect, but without much to go on- no proof- he left it up to his readers.
Preliminary Hearing
Clegg
Q. Did you see him that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. I first saw him opposite my store in front of Shove and Fisher’s. I had occasion to see him that morning, I wanted to see him. I called him across the street into my store to make arrangements for the store that I had taken of him. I had considerable talk with him. It would
Page 213
be 20 minutes past ten when I called him in; it would be nine minutes; I know he left my store, 6 No. Main street at exactly 29 minutes past.
Q. Is that store in the Borden Block?
A. No Sir, Richardson Block.
Q. Opposite Borden Block?
A. No Sir, next to Bennett’s Drug store.
Q. Which way did he go when he left your store?
A. He went south.
Q. It was just 29 minutes past when he left your store?
A. Just.
Q. That is the last time you saw him?
A. Yes Sir.
.....
214
Q. Was Mr. Borden ever in your store before, at this No. Main street store?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. On the Tuesday when I first made arrangements to take the store.
Q. Tuesday before he was killed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time was he there then?
A. After dinner I think. I would not be positive.
______
Trial
Clegg
Q. Had you gone to Mr. Borden's house to visit him with reference to this store?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When and how many times did you go there?
A. Twice.
Q. Do you remember what days you went there?
A. Yes, Tuesday the first day.
Q. Tuesday of this same week?
A. Tuesday, on the second.
Q. Tuesday, the 2d of August, 1892. What day did you next go there?
A. Wednesday.
Q. The following day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that you were there the two days preceding the homicide?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who let you in either of those times?
A. The servant Bridget, as I afterwards learned.
Q. Both times?
A. No. I think he let me in the first time. Bridget let me in the second time.
Q. How long did you remain in the house with him?
A. Well, about ten minutes.
Q. Did you go in the front or rear door?
A. Front door.
Q. What was the subject of your conversation?
A. Hiring the store.
Page 175
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) Let me see if we understand it right. Were you in a store that is nearer the City Hall than the one where you are now?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you wanted to meet him at the store where you now are that morning?
A. What is that?
Q. Did you want to see him at No. 92 Main street that morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you see him there?
A. I saw him in 6 North Main street, but I didn't see him at 92.
_____
BTW: Dr. Bowen also came by Wednesday morning- and he noted who he thought was Lizzie scrambling up the front stairs. He saw Andrew (about his health) but did not see Abby or Lizzie that visit. That's 2 callers on Wednesday, one we know of in the morning, probably both at the front door.
Morse came to visit on Wednesday as well.
Wednesday after supper, Mrs. Dr. Bowen came over, right after Lizzie went off to see Alice Russell.
Just counting visitors, to see how much activity there was around the Second Street house of a day...
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augusta
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I always wondered where Andrew's newspaper went when he was murdered. He sat by a window in another room other than the sitting room to read by natural light, but I think Bridget does not say it was a newspaper, which led me to believe maybe the white parcel was a small book and that's what he was reading.
I think sources do say Andrew took the Providence Journal.
I wouldn't think the witnesses that saw him walking home would mistake the white parcel as a newspaper.
Good question: Did they get home delivery in Fall River in 1892? Or was the paper mailed to them? I imagine the Providence paper had to have been mailed. Good question for the FRHS.
Andrew was quite the businessman. He probably took at least one of the Fall River papers, too, to see what was going on. He never belonged to any fraternal organizations, where he could sit around and chat about the latest happenings. I'd think he would rely on newspapers for his news, perhaps more so than the average businessman in FR.
In the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, there's a part toward the beginning that says Morse was reading the paper, and came upon a yacht for sale. And Morse made a joke to Andrew about buying it. And Andrew I think thought it was funny and said something like, "Now, whatever would I do with that?"
I think sources do say Andrew took the Providence Journal.
I wouldn't think the witnesses that saw him walking home would mistake the white parcel as a newspaper.
Good question: Did they get home delivery in Fall River in 1892? Or was the paper mailed to them? I imagine the Providence paper had to have been mailed. Good question for the FRHS.
Andrew was quite the businessman. He probably took at least one of the Fall River papers, too, to see what was going on. He never belonged to any fraternal organizations, where he could sit around and chat about the latest happenings. I'd think he would rely on newspapers for his news, perhaps more so than the average businessman in FR.
In the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, there's a part toward the beginning that says Morse was reading the paper, and came upon a yacht for sale. And Morse made a joke to Andrew about buying it. And Andrew I think thought it was funny and said something like, "Now, whatever would I do with that?"
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lydiapinkham
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Maybe the newspaper was the charred rolled up something found in the stove. Could it have been used during crime or cleanup?
I always imagine it being a delivered paper. Out of town papers are frequently delivered today--especially in smaller towns. Surely there were enterprising young paper carriers then?
--Lyddie
I always imagine it being a delivered paper. Out of town papers are frequently delivered today--especially in smaller towns. Surely there were enterprising young paper carriers then?
--Lyddie