Borden Book Club

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:46 pm

Not sure if this has been done on this forum before, but would anybody be interested in Re-reading (or reading for the first time) some of the Borden case books and discussing them chapter by chapter as we go along? I know i've seen in the archives the dissecting of Browns book, just wondered how many would be up for doing this with other books? we could all vote for a book that we all have or can get and then have a time line for reading and giving our input on the forum! then when we have finished one we could chose another, let me know what you all think. Cheers Aaron

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:17 pm

It would be fun..... Sometimes I think we need something like this to encourage participation and new post ideas...

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:54 pm

So what book would you think would be a good one to start off with? I'm thinking Lincoln or Sullivan as they seem to be the ones easiest to get, also i'm sure many people haven't read them in their intirety for a while

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:22 pm

great idea Aaron, Have you read 40 whacks by Kent?
I haven't re-read that one in a while. I believe
Lincloln's book has already been picked apart on this forum though

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:27 pm

Hi Nancie, yes I have read Forty Whacks, but like yourself haven't re-read it in ages, maybe we should take a vote on it, although not sure if it is still in print for others to get if they have not already read it and would like to take part, so all those in favour of Forty Whacks post away!

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:10 pm

Aaron, there is a way to make a "poll" on here
which I don't know how to do, but maybe you could
list several books and have members vote. Harry
and Audrey are computer savvy ones that might be
able to tell you how to do it.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:49 pm

Thanks Nancie, have tried to do the poll thing but can't grasp it! if anyone can help let me know, I think listing 2 to 5 books to chose from would be best, here are the five I think in advance (admittedly they are 5 I have)

1. Goodbye Lizzie Borden-Robert Sullivan
2. Forty Whacks-David Kent
3. A Private Disgrace-Victoria Lincoln
4. The Untold Story-Edward Radin
5. Lizzie-Frank Spiering

Nancie · Post by **Nancie** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:58 pm

those are excellent picks Aaron, i'm sure someone
will step up and help you do the poll

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:00 pm

to do a poll we would have to make a new topic...

I see you can only create one as the first message!

It doesn't matter to me which one we pick-- but I prefer not to do Brown.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:16 pm

I'm halfway through re-reading "A Private Disgrace", not sure what to think of it now, especially after reading what has been said about it on the forum. When it was first published in 1967 was it looked upon as the gospel truth according to VL? likewise i'm easy about what we read (as long as I have a copy

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:19 am

Actually, I found that if you are the author of the first post, you can edit your way into starting a poll.
Click on edit and go way down to the bottom and see if there is a poll possible. Then follow directions.
Otherwise, Har can probably help you Saturday- and I'm pretty sure you can add it to this topic.

When I spoke last to Dr. Joyce Williams, she wanted it to be made known her decided preference for Victorian Lincoln's book, and that she thought every Bordenite should read it for it's Fall River details.
I thought I should pass that along.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:09 am

I got there in the end! cheers Kat

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:36 am

Tres bon!

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:11 pm

This is a great idea ! May we have some lead time so we can 'get' the book that is chosen...which ever one we decided on ?

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:16 am

jamfaws @ Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:16 pm wrote:I'm halfway through re-reading "A Private Disgrace", not sure what to think of it now, especially after reading what has been said about it on the forum. When it was first published in 1967 was it looked upon as the gospel truth according to VL? likewise i'm easy about what we read (as long as I have a copy

I must admit it has been years since I read Lincoln.
We did look up Lincoln's grandfather's biographical information and found what an upstanding and important citizen he was. But Victoria claims that she learned about these private stories about the crimes and the Bordens from this man. I believe she gives the year, or an idea of about when these conversations took place.
My memory is that we found out it was the year her grandfather died.
So we tried to reconcile the fact that we've been assured that this crime was not discussed within families in Fall River with this claim that the year Leontine Lincoln died he filled Victoria in on these infamous stories? It doesn't seem reasonable. Besides which, I think we figured she was about 18 at that time. Wouldn't she be more interested in cotillions, and teas and clothing and balls? What 18 year-old would spend her time at her elderly grandfather's knee being informed of the scandal which was the Borden murders from the last century?

Please correct me if my approximate dates are wrong.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:23 am

I wish I could see a photo of Victoria.

I usually can get a sense of a person looking at them or a photo of them.

Perhaps she was manly looking and jowly and had peculiar fits and had no one to pay attention to her besides her grandpapa.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:30 am

Well, here's a picture of her grandfather from Phillips History of Fall River.

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:08 am

theebmonique @ Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:11 am wrote:This is a great idea ! May we have some lead time so we can 'get' the book that is chosen...which ever one we decided on ?

Tracy...

Hi Tracy,
Yes I think after we are satisfied that no one else will vote, I think some lead time for those who haven't got the winning book to read would be a good idea, maybe in between the xmas period or just after New Year would be great to start reading, what do you all think?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:22 am

I'm not sure I'm taking full part in this but I have my Kent at the ready beside me right now.
We work on The Hatchet extensively starting around January 20th, thru Feb. 4th publish date.

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:19 am

i Guess I have to say Lincon, becuse thats the only book i have from the list...

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:48 am

Great idea! I'd like to participate. But I have vowed never to read Lincoln's book again. There's too much in there that isn't true, and it messes me up when I'm writing. I'll remember some little gem about the case, and I may or may not remember it came from her. Her book is "historical fiction" in my opinion. I don't care what it teaches me about Fall River. I'll get it from other sources or skip it. It's not worth being filled with all her mis-information. (No disrespect meant to Dr. Joyce Williams. I'm sure she's right. But I am so darned mad at Lincoln's making up so much stuff.)

No Brown. Ugh.

"Goodbye, Lizzie Borden" might be good to do. I have it and have not read it yet. On the other hand, you guys that have read it may not think it's a good one to do.

Radin's would be real good. I haven't read it in years, and I just bought myself a copy. It's a fun read - very interesting.

"Forty Whacks" by Kent would be good. Haven't read that since it came out. I think it was a little boring, tho. At least that's what I'm remembering.

If you do a book I don't care for, I'll just wait till the next book to join in.

I would think it'd be good to wait till after New Year's. Everyone probably has so much to do for the holidays. Like the 2nd or 3rd.

Would it be a good idea to do a chapter a week? Should we have a different thread for each chapter, so that we can always post on a chapter even after we have progressed further into the book?

Maybe Stef could send out emails about this to everyone on the Forum (?). I know if I missed this thread, I'd want to know about it.

Thanks for the great idea! We should really get a lot out of doing this.

Oh - on Victoria Lincoln's photo: I have searched and searched on the web and have not found a photo of her yet. I would love to see one, too. Maybe there's one of her on an old book jacket or something. Maybe the FRHS has a photo of her.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:00 am

I have Lincoln, but I am sure I could either go to the library or Ebay and get "40 Whacks" or one of the others. Maybe we could also consider at some point, going through things like the Inquest testimonies...the witness statements, etc... ?

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:57 am

Trace...

You might be shocked a the lack of Lizzie at the library... I was.

If you are good--which I doubt--I would maybe get you one or two for Christmas....

Jimmy S. Windeskog · Post by **Jimmy S. Windeskog** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:32 am

You shold be lucky Audrey! Here Iam in a country with a population more than 9 miljon persons. One book have i found in a library.

The first book in swedish aboute Lizzie is yet to come...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:33 am

OHHH.......the pressure !

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:33 pm

I got them all via eBay....

Radin
Sullivan
Kent
Spiering
Lincoln
Brown
Hunter

Some of them were a bit on the "out there" side-- but I wanted to have them all!

I think I paid less than $100 for all of the above--including shipping.

I did get Masterton via walmart.com (CHEAP!)

Geary and Douglas came from Borders... Neither was expensive.

I found a Satterthwait at a tag sale for 25 cents.

Rebello has a place of honor on my Lizzie shelf!

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:05 pm

I was lucky I got Rebello for 38 quid from Australia (via airmail) it was signed to a woman named Ruth Russell! (pity it wasn't Alice Russell) the first book I got was the Sullivan, then deMille, Lincoln, Brown, Kent, Masterton, Geary and via internet Spiering, Radin, Rebello (and his nibs as just bought me 6 others from FRHS!) so hopefully i'll get em' by xmas.
But the first time I read about The Borden case was in 1985, I was in the local Woolworths and came across this "Infamous murders" book, took it home and read it, but out of all the crimes within it's pages it was The Borden case that I was hooked on, and I always thought the picture they used of Lizzie by the chair was really scary and haunting, the afternoon I read it I fell asleep and in my waking dream lizzie Borden opened the door and entered the room, she just stood at the end of the bed not saying a word, the moment was brief, but it scared the hell out of me, now nearly 20 years later i'm still hooked on the case, out of all these books there has only come more confusion, so many theories and only one can be the truth, but which one?

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:09 pm

Only 147 votes to go before the final result!

jamfaws · Post by **jamfaws** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:18 pm

Well it looks like Lincoln is the winner

but it'll best be read after xmas if the team of 15 are OK with that? (no one voted Radin-wonder why?)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:02 pm

I already started Kent.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:10 am

I was gonna say please let's not do Kent. I've been looking it over lately, and it's not very entertaining - I never did remember it after I read it when it first came out, and now I see why. I think about the only big thing in it was Knowlton's knowing he might not win the case.

I was just gonna get on here and vote for Radin.

Oh, well. I can't read Lincoln. Too much stuff in it that was disproved. Then I'd remember pieces of it and forget I read it from Lincoln and start thinking some things were true that weren't. I finally got myself de-programmed from reading her book. Y'all go ahead and have fun. I'll join with the next book (unless it's Kent...

)

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:27 pm

I would like to do Lincoln, because I think a lot of what I read in the archive about picking apart her book is interesting, but I do not agree with it.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:32 am

Lincoln would be interesting to do as a group, I agree, Allen. I myself just don't want to read it again and get cluttered with the questionable parts.

Did you read "Miss Lizzie", by Sattherwaite (sp?), Audrey? I got it thru my book club when it first came out. I hate to sound like a grinch on Xmas Eve, but I hated it. He had Lizzie in her older age playing cards all the time and smoking a cigar. And the book was so predictable. I donated it to my church thrift store. I mentioned it on an old Lizzie board, and someone said they'd like the book. So I went back to the thrift store and it was gone. Somebody got it for 50 cents. I know people who really liked this book. I'm curious what you thought of it, Audrey, or anyone else who has read it.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:49 pm

SO...are we going to do the book club thing ? I wonder if we could get a separate 'category', specifically to cover the book club. Maybe right after "Stay to Tea, or 'Links' ? Anyway, should we get going on Lincoln... Chapter 1 ...and report in on say...Tuesday evening ? If any of you have other ideas, please share.

Tracy...

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:56 pm

OK...LINCOLN/CHAPTER ONE/SECTIONS 1-5...Report in Tuesday evening ? That is for those who still wish to do the book club thing. I think once we get going it will be fun. I know I am going to learn a lot. If anyone has objections to staring now...just let me know.

Tracy...

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:05 pm

<<*busy reading*>>

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:03 pm

dang --- is it too late to join in? I read Lincoln years ago and no longer have it...but can find a copy. I remember hating it... thinking she was a pompous, self-rightous biddy... but it was a while back and I have mellowed some.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:19 pm

LOL...

Pompous is right!

Get the book-- you are not too late at all!

terrie · Post by **terrie** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:28 pm

ok......I got the book at the library (ewww...the guy at the circulation desk looked at it and said "sometimes you have to kill your parents to get out of there").... and I have read Parts 1-5. I was right... Lincoln is very full of herself, isn't she?

The first thing that struck me was how tiny Emma's room is...the size of Abby's dressing room, and not much bigger than the clothes closet. The guest romm is twice the size of Emma's room... I wonder why Emma took that room... I remember reading in Lincoln that Emma let Lizzie have the larger room... but that still left another larger room. It just seemed odd to me that she would take such a small one.

I am not quite sure what to think of the epilepsy theory.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:41 pm

By the former Curator of the Borden B&B, Bill Pavao, and Len Rebello, we have a floorplan with measurements.
I don't know what in Lincoln is being referred to but here are the true statistics:

8' 7" x 11' 3" = Abby's dressing room
9' 8" x 11' 3" = Emma's room
6' 3" x 10' 3" = clothes press

Emma's room is the largest of the 3, but not a *big* room after all.

Here are the guest room measurements and Lizzie's newer room:

14' 4" x 15' 6" = guest room
13' 51/2" x 14' 5" = Lizzie's newer room

Just FYI

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:55 pm

Kat, thanks for the measurements !

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 12:09 am

Most people took in boarders, even Mrs. Churchill, the daughter of a Mayor.
The best room seems to be kept for company in the Borden house. If Andrew was such a tightwad, why didn't he let rooms? Even Bowen let a room.
Maybe they periodically *let* the room? Maybe Morse paid?
(Well, maybe the Morse comment is going too far ?

)

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