Thank you, Kat, for your riveting cover article in the last Hatchet. It was a subject I had wished someone would write on for a long time but wondered if there was enough info out there to put it together. You made it happen.
That cover photo! It's scary! It's wonderful in black and white. Good choice, Stefani and Mb.
Those rips in the cloth look like they could be hatchet hacks. But then I've never seen the piece in person.
I don't think it was a man's handkerchief, tho. It seems terribly big for that. And, as pointed out in the article, it would be a lousy choice to dust with. It'd be nice and big to be pinned to Abby's head, tho, to do her dusting. Or worn over the killer's head. That piece of material must have been handled a bit after the murders. I wonder if the hair that's on it today, and the pins, are just like they were on August 4, 1892.
Was that piece in any of the murder photos? I've seen a white what looks to be a handkerchief in them. It'd be very interesting to see it in a photo taken that day.
Thanks! I could not find it in any crime scene photo. Only that white crumpled cloth we see by Abbie's waist. But the pictures were taken pretty late in the day.
It is pretty big.
When it was first brought out and unwrapped, I gazed in wonder. This had been at the actual crime scene! This was right under my nose. I'm nearsighted so I looked at it as close to my face as possible. Then I asked if I might smell it!
I sniffed and breathed it in. It didn't smell like anything.
Then Stef came over and the first thing she did when she saw it was smell it too! Must be a *Koorey thing.*
I thought it would smell like old blood or something.
It was described to me as not ever having any pins in it- only the hair piece had pins.
Personally, I think it could have been big evidence, and at the time, might have provided a solution to the case.
Yes that is the white cloth. It almost looks like the pattern in the carpet- like a big blossom.
The darker-colored bloody handkerchief is different from that cloth.
You must be pretty brave, smelling that material. It's interesting to know that it didn't smell like anything. I would have thought a musty smell and yes, old blood.
Do you think they can do a DNA test on it and see whose blood is on it?
Well, I would think it would be a pretty important piece of evidence, too. It's incredible how it was sluffed over so.
Maybe there are other hairs on the piece, if someone else wore it on on their head. I wonder if that would be possible to test.
Two handkerchiefs. I'm really confused. Wish Kat was still posting, and if I have said something terribly ignorant or have made mistakes in remembering the TV show, I apologize here. Looks like there was a white man's handkerchief Bridget identified as something Abby used for dusting. Then there is this other fabric item that has blood on it and is "large". Man's or woman's handkerchief? Or scarf? What are the dimensions? Was Abby wearing it around her neck? Is this the "handkerchief" found between Abby's head and the wall? If Abby was not wearing it, how did it become blood stained? Am I right to remember on the TV show that the hatchet head was matched with cuts or gaps in the fabric? (I do remember thinking the fabric on TV was silk and it is/was my opinion that the silk fabric had partially shredded with age.)
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
You and me both, irina! Are we to take it that there is a large white (silk) cloth that was used for dusting (or less probably worn on Abby's head) that had no pins in it but is blood-stained? This is the one in the care of the FRHS, right? Or is the 'man's hankie' also held by the FRHS? That one has no blood on it but was photographed? I wish Kat could post to explain it, or at least someone who has seen the artefact(s). I've just got home so I have to absorb this for a while!
I have a partially photographic memory (which Twitter is quickly destroying with overload)~which works by turning everything into mental pictures. I do that with everything. Anyway, after watching the TV show I have had a mental picture of Abby having a long(er) silk scarf tied or draped around her neck. Since it was a hot day (yes, not THE hottest, etc., but hot anyway), I just pictured it lightly tucked around her neck as a fashion statement. Personally, I do wear hair pieces, wigs, etc. and I use scarves here and there just for decoration. It would make sense to incorporate the hair piece into the general hair-do with a scarf but I doubt that was done then.
As I remember a big point of the TV show was matching the hatchet blade to a rent in the scarf fabric. Which was supposedly around Abby's neck. If so, why was this scarf saved? Because it was closest to her head/neck? Are we missing something here? I wasted a heck of a lot of time researching "scarf" when I needed the word "handkerchief"~~but I thought the FRHS had a silk "scarf" from Abby's neck.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
irina wrote:... As I remember a big point of the TV show was matching the hatchet blade to a rent in the scarf fabric. Which was supposedly around Abby's neck. If so, why was this scarf saved? Because it was closest to her head/neck? Are we missing something here? I wasted a heck of a lot of time researching "scarf" when I needed the word "handkerchief"~~but I thought the FRHS had a silk "scarf" from Abby's neck.
Irina, you are correct, the FRHS does have a scarf that was wore by Abby at the time of her death. Here is a video from the Discovery Channel documentary "Lizzie Borden Had an Axe." Professor Tom Mauriello and Detective Tom Lange of OJ Simpson fame, look at the handleless hatchet and Abby's scarf.
The question I have is: If this scarf was wore by Abby at the time of her death, why isn't there any visible blood stains on it? Am I missing something here?
Last edited by twinsrwe on Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Yesterday I brought forward three forums on the handkerchief(s) and now we have this video. I'm still confused and I will explain why.
I believe THIS THREAD that I am tacking onto begins with Augusta mentioning Kat's "Hatchet" article Aug/Sept 2008. Kat replies that the handkerchief in question is not seen in the crime scene photos~only the crumpled white one by Abby's body is photographed. On another thread titled 'Blood Stained Handkerchief', Augusta begins again with a clip from the 'Atlanta Constitution' 6/15/1893 which says Bridget was shown a "blood stained" handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body, which Bridget identified as a dust cloth.
Then I double checked with inquest testimony which I have reproduced on another thread before. We can all see the crumpled white handkerchief by Abby's body but was this item EVER accounted for in any statement, testimony, etc? Was this what Bridget identified as a "dust cloth"? It would make more sense that Abby used an old, possibly cotton handkerchief to dust. The inquest testimony I find on the handkerchief specifically deals with a dark colored, tattered and ragged with age, bloody handkerchief found between Abby's head and the wall. Video aside, the officer testifying does not seem to think the fabric was cut with the hatchet.
page 439:
Q: Did you notice any article about the room anywhere near Mrs. Borden?
A: I noticed a handkerchief covered with blood.
Q: (about location of handkerchief)
A: It was lying from Mrs. Borden's feet toward the window.
Q: Could you identify the handkerchief, do you think?
A: Yes, sir; the border is cut. (A ragged handkerchief was shown witness.) Yes, that is the handkerchief.
page 440
More discussion on the position of the handkerchief when found
Q: That is, about as far from the handkerchief to the window as from the handkerchief to the feet?
A: Yes, sir, it was wet with blood and lying in a---just as you have it now.
page 857
Q: Did you find any article of clothing that you took away?
A: Yes, sir; I found a handkerchief. an old silk handkerchief.
page 856
Q: Where did you find the handkerchief, near the head?
A: Almost touching it, nearer the wall than the head.
Q: Was it knotted or loose?
A: Loose.
Q: Describe the handkerchief?
A: It seemed to be an old silk handkerchief, in some places shredded from wear.
Q: Did you notice whether the handkerchief was cut or not?
A: I did not see that it was cut.
Q: It was a dark colored handkerchief?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Was there blood on the handkerchief?
A: Yes, sir.
More concerning where handkerchief was found, describing Abby's hands over her head, the handkerchief on the floor between (from) hands and wall.
Q: Is that the handkerchief? (Showing dark tattered handkerchief.)
A: yes, sir.
Q: Is that the condition so far as the entirety of it is concerned as it was then?
A: Yes, sir, I think so.
Investigation then goes into handkerchief having been buried with the Borden's clothes, and dug up, etc.
That description seems to fairly well describe the handkerchief in the video. But the one in the video seems not to be blood stained. There doesn't seem to be ANY mention of a plain white handkerchief~at least I don't think I found any. IS there a white handkerchief? Could it have been left by a doctor or someone at the scene? The handkerchief in the video appears in size to be the wort of neckerchief a man (or woman) would wrap once around the neck and tuck into the front of a shirt, coat or something. Could have been Andrew's at one time. But if the one the FRHS has is THE one from the crime scene, why isn't it blood stained? Or is it? If it was soaked in a tub with other bloody clothes, buried and dug up, I'd expect it to be in a lot worse condition than it is.
Between the testimony and the newspaper article it looks like all these mentions of "handkerchief" cover one, tattered, dark colored, blood stained, un-cut silk handkerchief.
Maybe the bottom line is to figure out the plain, white handkerchief. Is there anything out there about it? I'll go dig some more.
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
Thanks to you and twinsrwe for bringing this info up! I have to confess I never paid much regard to the item lying near to Abby in the 'death photographs'.
This case certainly takes some weird turns! I have looked again and again this morning (Australian time) at the photo of Abby lying prone with a crumpled piece of cloth near her body. To me it bears no resemblance to the scarf held by the FRHS (clean, made of silk, unbloodstained and seemingly a very pale brown and white pattern.)
Even if it's gone a little brown with age it doesn't look as the object near the photo, and it's pristine. If it had been placed around her neck Ascot fashion, as they did then, it certainly wouldn't have escaped bloodstains. Yet, in the video, the detective placed that very small hatchet head in one of the rents and it fitted perfectly!
Has that scarf undergone some massive dry cleaning operations in the last 122 years, before modern attitudes to preserving historical items came into place? Hope not!
What's worse, from my point of view anyway, is that the object Bridget, in testimony, described as Abby's dusting cloth (which you, Irina, have posted,) was apparently dark-coloured, silk and ragged. (Sounds like a description of the scarf!)
Apart from the interesting thought that Abby WAS engaged in dusting the guest room at some point before she was killed, the item in the photo might be silk, might be ragged, but it certainly doesn't look dark, not to me, anyway. Admittedly Victorian photos often show harsh colourings but that object is light coloured if not white.
Last edited by Curryong on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have you tried to send a PM to Kat for her input regarding the handkerchief(s)?
Have you tried to contact the Fall River Historical Society to see if they may have some information regarding the handkerchief(s)?
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
You're welcome, Curryong. Thanks for sending a PM to Kat, hopefully, she will be able to give us some insight on the handkerchief(s).
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
The white thing by Abby's waist roughly resembles a three dimensional flower to me.(Meaning not a flower pattern on the carpet.) Any chance it could be the feather duster? What else could it be? Judging by what was presented at trial it kind of seems like if it didn't have blood on it, it wasn't presented. I think in an outside article about Agnes de Mille seeing the contents of the hip bath, there was also a pillow sham (case?) with a hand hemmed edge which was tightly ruffled and well ironed with compliments to Bridget. Could this item be that case kind of bunched up under the body with the ruffles exposed?
On the other hand maybe it is crumpled paper. Hey! Maybe I just discovered the note nobody could find!
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
You may very well be right, irina, though it appears to be a bit small for a feather duster, it could be! I've had another look at it and I can discern a slight pattern on it actually, almost as if it's a smaller, lighter-coloured version of the scarf in the video. No bloodstains on that scarf though, which is surprising if she indeed wore it on that day.
If then was now I'd say it was a "silk" flower~peony type. That would have been noted back then because it would have been out of place. Someone who can really enhance and work with photos might be able to figure it out. It might be important in this time when the tiniest thing can be a clue to solving a crime. I vote for the fluted edge of a pillow case/sham. (I prefer the idea it is the missing note. )
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
Abby's clothes are bunched up in a curious way aren't they probably as a result of her falling awkwardly, trapping some of her dress under her, partly I think because of the killer kneeling on her skirts. The FRHS have the pillow shams and bedspread, I believe. My vote is still for a hanky of some kind though it could have been a little feather duster. The police would have leaped on that object if it had been a note like terriers with a rat! I'm afraid your hopes of the note aren't justified! Smile.
I'm sure my hope of the note are not justified but if I had the tenacity of Franz I could attempt to prove it was the note...
Anyway I had a rotten day personally so I spent a lot of time looking at pictures on Pinterest and other places, actually with the idea of identifying the "handkerchief" that came with Abby's hair piece. Unfortunately I don't think anyone knows for sure if this was the handkerchief that was found between Abby's head and the wall and it doesn't seem to be blood stained, let alone soaked in blood.
I found a picture of something similar which was vintage and about the same size. There were other items that were similar. So my thought is the item is a man's muffler to be worn around the neck. I looked up Irish terms for (hand)kerchief to see if Bridget would have made any distinction between a scarf or kerchief when asked. (To me there is a big difference between say a hankie, scarf and bandana and I would respond that way if asked.) Irish slang for handkerchief is "snot rag". Now we know where that one came from. Near as I can figure, to Bridget scarves and handkerchiefs could all have been kerchiefs.
The odd size of the item at FRHS to me implies the muffler size. Longer (not square) than a handkerchief, but not long enough to be a scarf. I know you have special expertise in this area Curryong, so you may have a similar or different opinion?
The paisley print and borders on the handkerchief in question remind me of an East Indian fabric. Wonder if Lizzie could have picked up this item for her father, on her European tour? Just imagining. Imagining its presence in the guest room and its usefulness as a "dust rag", I was thinking today that I have used narrow towels and such to flick cob webs down from the ceiling. I'm real tall so it isn't a huge reach to do this. It might not work as good for a shorter woman. Wonder if Abby spied a cob web in a corner and came back prepared when she finished the room?
Is all we see or seem but a dream within a dream. ~Edgar Allan Poe
The item held by the FRHS is rather pretty, I agree. It reminds me of Indian designs. I don't know whether the colour has changed in the 122 years. I suspect it has. What we need is a Catbooks, who was a textile expert, to give her opinion.
Irina, I know that by the 1890's females sometimes imitated male clothing and wore, with skirts and leg of mutton-sleeved jackets, items like silk cravats/Ascots, waistcoats, high wing collars, etc. (to give them gravitas!.) These tended to be young professional women out in the workforce or academia, however, and the cravats were usually black silk, like men's.
This delicate looking feminine piece may have been tied like an ascot round Abby's neck, or tucked into her neckline, but the complete lack of blood staining (as it is now) troubles me, as do the hatchet-sized slits in the material, as per the video. Coincidence, fraying with time? It is either the heavily bloodstained cloth Bridget identified as a cleaning rag, that has been massively cleaned up since and is seen on the photo, or it isn't.
If it isn't, what was it doing in the room? Kat and Stefani were specifically told that it had never been pinned. The inference there is that it was never pinned as a head covering. Of course, Abby could have just tied it around her head but, again, you would think it would be bloodstained. The mystery remains!
(Haven't heard from Kat, by the way, but she probably doesn't check in at the Forum regularly any more so that's not surprising.)
This Hatchet article link includes items buried, dug up, and buried again etc...
I believe this item could have been a major clue in the case.
BTW: in past discussions, the white cloth was reasonably accounted for as something the doctors may have wiped their hands on after touching the body of Abbie.
The description of the second photo in the essay in the hard copy has a misidentification of the crumpled white cloth as being a "handkerchief."I was not investigating that, just the scarf-like piece that was featured in our Discovery Channel documentary, and held in the FRHS collection.
Thanks for asking questions!
On the Trail of the Bloody Handkerchief
by Kat Koorey
First published in August/September, 2008, Volume 5, Issue 3, The Hatchet: Journal of Lizzie Borden Studies.
I’ve read it and it provokes many thoughts.. the wife of a penny pinching man using a silk handkerchief, even an old one for dusting? There was no mention of what I have read or heard in the numerous articles and video recorded discussions, that Abby was upstairs changing the bed linen in the guest room and what is frequently mentioned as her changing the pillow cases or pillow shams, which makes sense as in that period in time men used pomade and other such things in their hair which would stain, leave a residue behind. There always seems to be so much speculation in those running the investigation and trial that went no where.
“The vow is to the man what the song is to the bird or the bark to the dog; his voice whereby he is known” ~ G.K. Chesterton
