What if.......

RonRico · Post by **RonRico** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:57 pm

The mystery of the Borden case has always been, for me, that it was impossible to believe that Lizzie, the Sunday school teaching spinster, could have planned and executed the perfect crime. That she could have calmly murdered two people and then somehow gotten rid of all the evidence that would have pointed to her. The inevitable blood on her clothes, the weapon etc.

And yet, it was equally impossible to believe that anybody else could have had the opportunity to have done it.

I had always discounted other theories that exonerated Lizzie: Bridget did it. Bridget had no motive or opportunity. Emma did it. If she was indeed away in Fairhaven Emma certainly had no opportunity.

Lizzie, however, had the means, the motive and the opportunity. But what of the weapon and the bloody clothes?

How could any one person have committed the perfect crime?

Well, maybe it wasn't one person. What if Lizzie conspired with, not just one other person but with two?

What if Lizzie enlisted the aid of both Bridget (with promises of a payoff) and Emma (with promises of a step up in the will) as well.

Lizzie commits the deed(s) and when she calls for Bridget to "come quickly" she passes the bloody clothes and hatchet to who spirits them out of the house on her run for the doctor and deposits them in Emma's waiting buggy who then whisks them out of town to parts unknown.

Is this plausible?

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:22 pm

Could be anybody's buggy. Why Emma's? It would be about a three hour trip from Fairhaven to Fall River by buggy.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:08 pm

For my College Comp class my professor would give us a subject, such as the death penalty, and tell us to write a paper expressing an opinion which was the opposite of our own. Which frustrated me to no end.If you were for it, write a paper as if you were against it. Instead of trying to disprove something, try supporting it with facts and evidence to see if it holds any water.It's actually a pretty handy research technique. I don't believe Bridget was involved. But I've tried arguing that she played a part in the murders.Same for Morse and Emma.There are some things which could possibly be used to support this theory.Like the inconsistancies in Bridgets statements.We can only take Bridget and Lizzie's word that Abby told Bridget to wash the windows. If a window was left open which someone could have used to enter the house, the windows are far enough off the ground that it would be hard getting in without some kind of step ladder. Which Bridget was using at the time, and conveniently walking away from for short periods. Again we only have the word of Lizzie and Bridget as to what happened after Andrew got home. It could be that not one word of it is true. He could've been dead within minutes of entering the house. That would have left plenty of time to clean up and dispose of evidence. The bucket in the basement containing bloody rags could have been used in the clean up, and somehow they forgot to dispose of it. Bridget could have ditched the axe on her way to Alice Russells.If Emma was involved, could explain why Lizzie instructed doctor Bowen to take care with the wording when he sent the telegram for Emma,because the old lady she was staying with might be shocked. Not a word was said about shocking Emma.Lizzie took great pains to say she and Bridget did not see each other after Abby went upstairs.Some of this evidence is kind of flimsy,but it could be used to support this theory. If Bridget had been spiriting the hatchet and bloody clothes to a waiting buggy, how did this go unnoticed? No one reported seeing Bridget carrying anything suspicious, and there were alot of witnesses outside 92nd that day.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:17 am

I think these theories are well-argued.
I like the Bridget and Emma conspiracy.
If Lizzie did it and took the fall, it makes sense it was kept
*in the family*- else why should a not-guilty Lizzie stand trial for some butcher and uncle? She must have had some role in the murders:
A Conspiracy of Women makes more sense to me than any other so far...
Emma gets out from under Abby
Bridget gets a lot of money
Lizzie sticks to an agreement with these ladies, never revealing the story...

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:34 am

There is only one thing that really bothers me about the theory of Lizzie "taking the fall". How did she know she would be aquitted? I don't buy that theory about the mellonhouse gang at all.I think it's absurd.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:51 am

It's been postulated that if Lizzie was convicted she would tell the real story.
Maybe the plan would be to find out the verdict ahead of time and have her plea beforehand.
Or Plea to reveal the real killer.
She was not indicted as a conspirator...tho the state considered it...

I agree about the Mellen House, overall, tho we have looked for Masons among the characters in charge.
However, the state spent, I believe, the equivelant of $2 million on this prosecution so I'd say they were putting their money on the person they believed responsible (tho they did not rule out a conspiracy).

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:54 am

That seems to be taking a real chance. Did she have the evidence to back up her claims if she suddenly decided to come clean if she was convicted?
I mean everybody in prison is innocent, just ask them they will tell you

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:56 am

You're too fast for me!

I was editing and revising...

and sneezing.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:54 am

Kat @ Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:17 am wrote:I think these theories are well-argued.
I like the Bridget and Emma conspiracy.
If Lizzie did it and took the fall, it makes sense it was kept
*in the family*- else why should a not-guilty Lizzie stand trial for some butcher and uncle? She must have had some role in the murders:
A Conspiracy of Women makes more sense to me than any other so far...
Emma gets out from under Abby
Bridget gets a lot of money
Lizzie sticks to an agreement with these ladies, never revealing the story...

From The Knowlton Papers, as the grand jury was called to meet:

Page 99

"HK097
Letter, typewritten.

HOSEA M. KNOWLTON. ARTHUR E. PERRY.
COUNSELLORS AT LAW.
OFFICE:
38 NORTH WATER STREET.
{Dictated.}
NEW BEDFORD, MASS., November 22, 1892.

Hon. A. E. Pillsbury,
Attorney General.
Dear Sir:- I see no need of account for accessory.
If she did not do the killing, but only instigated some one else to, it can
hardly be said that she was not so far present as to make her principal, for
she was certainly in the house, and in hearing of both murders.

It had occurred to me, however, since I saw you, that the jury should
be instructed as to the principles of law relating to principal and accesso-
ry; and, if you see no objection, I propose to state to them the law upon
that subject.

I have already written you about Jennings, and you have probably seen
him before this time.
Yours Truly,

H. M. Knowlton"

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:35 am

I believe Lizzie did do it, and I do not believe Bridget was involved. Bridget had no motive. I don't think Emma participated in the murders, but I am unsure as to how much she knew at this point.I've never been able to find any evidence that pushed me either way about her.There is so little evidence of her that even exists.This is just my personal theory though.I know Emma admits that the relationship between her and Abby
was more strained than that of the one between Abby and Lizzie, but I can not use this as a factor to decide as to whether or not she was involved.I haven't found anything else to base it on.Here is a question I've often pondered, what was the relationship between Emma and Andrew really like?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:32 am

The main thing which prohibits me from thinking Bridget has any hand in the murders or a conspiracy is a bit of a generalization.

My mama had an Irish nurse when she was a baby. My mama adored her and they remained close until her death.

After she had made some money and seen "the world" she returned to Ireland and married.

We used to go visit and stay with her.

She was a wonderful woman. She was very superstitious and believed in "haints" and what I can only describe as unsophisticated karma.

Her name was Violet and she was 17 years older than my mother-- which would make her about 80 if she was alive today. Born in the 1920's.

A generation or two away form Bridget... But uneducated and Irish Catholic.

For some reason I always imagine Bridget being like Violet.

I know this is a stretch-- but we all have ideas and opinions based on our experiences!

Anyways... I digress.

I don't think Bridget had the "nerves" to be involved PRIOR to the crimes and even immediately afterwards.

At some point she may have become part of some sort of conspiracy--but I do not think she went into it from the beginning.

RonRico · Post by **RonRico** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:00 pm

Allen @ Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:05 am wrote:I believe Lizzie did do it, and I do not believe Bridget was involved. Bridget had no motive. I don't think Emma participated in the murders,

You know, I can agrue against my own theory. But I can argue against almost any theory in this case.

Its difficult to imagine drawing someone into a murder plot unless they had an incentive. Of course if Bridget were offered a lot of money........... If the inheritence was half a million which in todays money would be $12 million (is that right?) then $10,000 would be $240,000. Now a quarter of a mill would at least get my attention.

And we don't know what sort of conversations the sisters may have had with Bridget over the years. They may have gained her sympathy.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:00 pm

Yes you can speculate that Bridget may have taken part for the money,
and you can speculate that they may have gained her sympathy, but there isn't any evidence to support it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:21 am

Well, when someone goes to Ireland and finds a Sullivan farm bought and paid for by a Bridget Sullivan we may find out something interesting...

Or if her inquest testimony shows up, closer, in the Robinson file?

RonRico · Post by **RonRico** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:27 am

Allen @ Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:30 am wrote:Yes you can speculate that Bridget may have taken part for the money,
and you can speculate that they may have gained her sympathy, but there isn't any evidence to support it.

Agreed. Speculation is so easy. Proof is harder to come by.

I suppose that is why we are all discussing this case 112 years after the fact.

BTW I think I've learned more about this thing in the short time I've been on this forum than in all the material I've read on the subject. Back and forth banter with a knowledgeable and like minded group like this one is invaluable. Even when we disagree it leads us down the road to enlightenment.

Thanks all,

RonRico · Post by **RonRico** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:33 am

Kat @ Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:51 am wrote:Well, when someone goes to Ireland and finds a Sullivan farm bought and paid for by a Bridget Sullivan we may find out something interesting...
Or if her inquest testimony shows up, closer, in the Robinson file?

Give me five minutes to pack.

But seriously, wouldn't that be the scoop of the century (or three).

It would be interesting to know what the passage back and forth would cost. My Mother and Grandmother came over from Wales about the same time on a ship called the "Cedric." I asked them a lot of questions but I never thought to ask them what it cost and now, alas, it is too late.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:26 pm

RonRico @ Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:27 am wrote: BTW I think I've learned more about this thing in the short time I've been on this forum than in all the material I've read on the subject. Back and forth banter with a knowledgeable and like minded group like this one is invaluable. Even when we disagree it leads us down the road to enlightenment.

Thanks all,

My sentiments also RonRico

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:38 pm

RonRico @ Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:33 am wrote:It would be interesting to know what the passage back and forth would cost. My Mother and Grandmother came over from Wales about the same time on a ship called the "Cedric." I asked them a lot of questions but I never thought to ask them what it cost and now, alas, it is too late.

Rebello, page 18+:

"Advertisement, Boston Daily Globe, October 30, 1890:

"Low Rates to Europe, Red Star Line, direct steamship ... 2nd cabin passage from Boston, splendid accommodations, $35.00; 1st cabin, $45 and up; steamers sail every Wednesday. ...

"Cunard Line - Steamers leave every Saturday for Liverpool via Queenstown ...Cabin passage, $60, $80, $100 ..."

"$16.50 - Steerage Tickets from Liverpool ..."

A quick rule of thumb to estimate the dollars value of 1892 vs the present is to multiply by 20. There is no one accurate figure as inflation does not affect all things equally. A good web site to use for inflation is:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

There's information on an immigrant ship named the Cedric at this site. Don't jnow if it's your Cedric.

http://www.fortunecity.com/littleitaly/ ... /shipc.htm[/i]

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:54 pm

RonRico @ Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:33 am wrote: My Mother and Grandmother came over from Wales about the same time on a ship called the "Cedric." I asked them a lot of questions but I never thought to ask them what it cost and now, alas, it is too late.

Is this the ship,which is named the Cedric , that your Mother and Grandmother booked their passage on? This ship was built by Harland and Wolf and was a White Star liner. I ask because I have an interest in White Star and Cunard liners of this time.

http://www.titanic-whitestarships.com/w ... c_1903.htm

http://www.greatoceanliners.net/cedric.html

RonRico · Post by **RonRico** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:51 pm

"Advertisement, Boston Daily Globe, October 30, 1890:

"Low Rates to Europe, Red Star Line, direct steamship ... 2nd cabin passage from Boston, splendid accommodations, $35.00; 1st cabin, $45 and up; steamers sail every Wednesday. ...

"Cunard Line - Steamers leave every Saturday for Liverpool via Queenstown ...Cabin passage, $60, $80, $100 ..."

"$16.50 - Steerage Tickets from Liverpool ..."

A quick rule of thumb to estimate the dollars value of 1892 vs the present is to multiply by 20. There is no one accurate figure as inflation does not affect all things equally. A good web site to use for inflation is:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

There's information on an immigrant ship named the Cedric at this site. Don't jnow if it's your Cedric.

http://www.fortunecity.com/littleitaly/ ... /shipc.htm[/i][/quote]

Harry, thank you for all the info. Yes, I do believe that's its my "Credric."

RonRico · Post by **RonRico** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:58 pm

Is this the ship,which is named the Cedric , that your Mother and Grandmother booked their passage on? This ship was built by Harland and Wolf and was a White Star liner. I ask because I have an interest in White Star and Cunard liners of this time.

http://www.titanic-whitestarships.com/w ... c_1903.htm

http://www.greatoceanliners.net/cedric.html[/quote]

Yes, that's my Credric. Lots of good info there, thanks.

Kind of breathtaking to see pix of it as you can imagine.

Again, thanks to both you and Harry

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:45 am

"We can only take Bridget and Lizzie's word that Abby told Bridget to wash the windows. If a window was left open which someone could have used to enter the house, the windows are far enough off the ground that it would be hard getting in without some kind of step ladder. Which Bridget was using at the time, and conveniently walking away from for short periods."--Allen

I forgot to mention on this topic that Bridget didn't use a ladder outside, she used it inside. (Go figure).

Prelim
Bridget
21
Q. Was you washing windows in the sitting room when he went up the back stairs?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Were you when he came down?
A. I was just taking the step ladder from the sitting room into the dining room.

Bridget at the Trial (sorry- no page number for Bridget):

Q. When you had completed this rinsing of the windows, if I may call it that, what did you do?
A. I went into the kitchen. I put the handle of the brush away in the barn and brought the pail and dipper in and put the dipper behind and I got the hand basin and went into the sitting- room to wash the sitting-room windows.

Q. Did you go to the barn to put away the handle of the brush before you went in, or after?
A. Before I went in.

Q. Before you went in?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Now I think you said you took the basin in there?
A. Yes sir, a hand dish in the sink.

Q. What else did you take?
A. A step-ladder in the kitchen.

Q. Anything else?
A. No sir, except a cloth I had to wash with.

--Anyway, it seems to me that Bridget would fit the description of someone who had just murdered, more so than Lizzie.
Lizzie was clean and dry, while Bridget was probably hot and damp.
Bridget also changed her dress that day, as well as Lizzie.

Trial
Bridget
Q. I am speaking about your own dress now: you understand me?
A. Yes, sir, I know what you are speaking about.

Q. Did you keep it on all day?
A. Yes, sir: until the afternoon.

Q. Well, that is not all day?
A. Well, I kept it on until I got a chance to change it, after all the fuss was over.

Q. When did you change it?
A. I couldn't tell what time it was.

Q. Well, was it in the afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what dress did you put on then?
A. I put a gingham dress on.

Bridget might be in some disarray from washing windows and throwing water up. (If she did wash windows.)
Those reporters looked for footprints around the outside of the house or any flattening of the long grass and say they saw trampling near the Kelly fence.
Surely there would be wet pavement and wet dirt and footprints all around from Bridget's efforts outside?
Bridget also left the property 4 times Thursday, while Lizzie did not- that we know of:
Trial
Bridget
Q. Do you think you went across the street more than once?
A. Yes sir, I went three times that day across the street.
--[And she left the house for the night]

Trial
Stevens
Q. When you got there to the house where did you say you went to?
A. I met Mr. Manning in front of the house, and at his suggestion we walked through the yard.

Q. What were you doing in the yard?
A. Looking around.

Q. Looking around where in the yard?
A. Well, we looked in the grass as we walked through it, looked to the other side of the fence, looked at the fence.

Q. Which side of the house was that on?
A. On the south side.

Q. Next to Dr. Kelly's?
A. Yes.

Q. Did you see any tracks or traces of a person there?
A. Well, there was a break in the fence, but it wasn't a new one.

Q. An old break?
A. It had been wet, I should judge.

Q. Something that had been out in the rain, you mean?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Besides that did you find any traces?
A. No. The grass was trampled considerably; it was quite long.

Q. That is, a good many people?
A. It might have been.

Q. So that other people might have gone along there before you did?
A. Yes.

Q. Was that next the Kelly fence that you thought that was?
A. Right in that part of the yard.

Q. Well, next to the Kelly fence did you find it so?
A. I don't remember being right next the Kelly fence. It was so

Page 1390

generally in the yard.

Q. The trampling was next that yard?
A. It was in that part of the yard. I don't remember exactly where.

Q. Who was with you when you examined that?
A. Mr. Manning.

Q. Where did you go then?
A. We went to the back of the yard by Chagnon's fence.

Q. What did you do there?
A. Looked over the fence.

Q. What were you looking there for?
A. Tracks of any sort.

Q. What?
A. Anything we could find.

Q. Did you find any tracks there?
A. No.

--He says there were hardly any people there outside in the street or in the yard when they were looking around. Yet he found trampling or tracks basically on the Kelly side by the fence. If Bridget did go over there to talk to Mary Doolan, those could be her tracks. He doesn't mention any near the house itself.
Any tracks in the main yard could be Andrew with his slops and Bridget with her vomiting.