What kind of life?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:12 am

If the murders had never have happened, what kind of Life would Lizzie have had? Just doing what she had been doing before the murders? Or perhaps feeling of having more freedom maybe a business women, being out and about?

Or better yet, someone else was arrested and tried, possibly convicted?

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:44 pm

If Lizzie committed the murders, I'm sure that question was very much on her mind. She probably felt destined to live in frugality under Andrew's tight reign. I wonder if she may have ever expressed interest in helping him conduct business affairs?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:13 pm

Good question, Snokks. I had never thought of this before. If the murders never happened I think Lizzie would have become a business woman of some sort, maybe taking over her father's business dealings.

If the murders happened with someone else convicted I think Lizzie would have gone into some sort of business anyway. I think she had the moxie.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:53 pm

I'm not really sure how much business sense Lizzie had, did someone else handle her business dealings after the murders? She may have been inclined to pursue acceptance by the social circles she aspired to.

The second part of the question makes me wonder if Lizzie ever expressed any indignation that while she was behind bars, the real murderer was not being pursued. I don't recall that sentiment being expressed by anyone closely related to Lizzie or by Lizzie herself. If I had been in Lizzie's position and innocent of the crime, that would have been one of the first things on my mind, especially early on.

Bobbypoz · Post by **Bobbypoz** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:33 am

I would think that an easy way to answer what type of business WOMEN Lizzie and Emma were is to look at their wills and see what their assets were at their deaths. Since they started out with the same amount of money from their father's will- which one was in a better financial shape at the end of their lives- since they died so close to one another it should be a wonderful indicator. I "betcha" Stephanie or Kat has them online somewhere! that way we can see who actually would be the better business person. Did they both retain ownership of the AJ Borden Building? They both died right before the Wall Street crash in 1929- did either buy stocks? What shape was Fall River in during these times? Hadn't the mills started to relocate from Fall River to the south at this time- how did this effect the Borden women?

Answering these questions would indicate to me who was the better business person and allow us to understand what path Lizzie may have decided to take. Thanks for listening to my dribble!!!!!!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 10:31 am

Not dribble at all, Bobbypoz. It's a good question.

In round numbers Emma's estate was about worth about $100,000 more at the time of their deaths in 1927 - $450,000 to $350,000.

This is mainly accountable by their different life styles more than their business acumen. Lizzie, on her own, also purchased many lots on French Street. She also had servants, chauffers, automobiles, etc. which Emma did not.

Was the difference of $100,000 well spent? I should think so.

The A J Borden building was held jointly by the sisters until 1923 when Emma sold her half to a J. Dondis. There was a law suit between the sisters regarding this sale.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:02 am

Some additional info. Lizzie's will lists leaving stock in the Stevens Mfg. Co. worth about $18,000 + $2,000 dividends and interest to the Animal League.

Helen Leighton also was left some stocks and bonds. You can get a detailed listing of their wills at:

Lizzie's Will at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%20fil ... 20will.pdf

And Emma's at:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%20fil ... 7sWill.pdf

I've always had the belief that the bulk of their investments were in rental properties.

Bobbypoz · Post by **Bobbypoz** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:10 am

Thanks Harry!!!

I knew that someone better versed than I am would know the answers! I totally agree that the money that Lizzie invested in her staff and property was better spent.

Is it known if Lizzie did not sell her share of the AJ Borden building because of a sense of loyalty to her father? Did she have the business sense of her dad or was it Emma? Emma surely was the "thriftier" one taking after her father in that way. I seem to always think that Lizzie was the more adventurous of the two butI have to remind myself that it was Emma who actually moved away from Fall River while Lizzie although being shunned by her social class she remained there- ok Emma was a recluse where ever she moved, but she did move...she also could have stayed in Fall River and kept to herself...just thinking out loud I guess...kind of in a Borden Sisters reflective mood on a foggy Saturday morning

...neither one really "won" anything with this whole "situation" both lost their friends AND their best friends- each other...just makes me feel glum this morning.........

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:22 am

I'm mistaken that Helen Leighton was left some stocks and bonds by Lizzie. She did inherit some from another, Ms Gertrude Baker.

I think Lizzie had little business sense. I think she knew the value of a dollar but not the intricacies of the world of business.

She is asked at the Inquest if she knew her father's holdings and she could only list but a few. That's assuming she was telling the truth.

I seem to remember reading (where?) that at the end of her trial she was offered a speaking tour. Another offer was to invest in an invention. Whether any of that is true or not I have no idea. Will have to see if I can relocate it.

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:03 am

If the murders had never happened, I'm afraid poor Lizzie and Emma would have withered on the vine (so to speak) in that gloomy old house. Once their father and step-mother had died (presumably of natural causes!), if they followed the custom of the time, neither of the sisters would have needed to work (thanks to their inheritance), and anyway "work" for women of their rank would have been very much disapproved of.

They might have ended up buying Maplecroft, or a similar house, at some point, but I think their lives would have remained drab and unremarkable. Rich or not, it was an unenviable thing to be a middle-aged (or older) "spinster lady" in those days.

Thinking about this, I can almost sympathize with Lizzie's sense of desperation!