Was Lizzie's Mother A Suffragette?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:46 am

Was Lizzie’s mother an early Suffragette?
Maybe Sarah Morse Borden was ahead of her time? If she knew or was friends with Mary Rice Livermore, Sarah might have been a radical for her day. Possibly this might be why she was portrayed later as having a temper, or being odd. In those early days, that kind of free thinking would have been more cruelly looked upon by those of the old school, and censored.

There is a citation which claims Sarah was good friends with one of these famous suffragettes, pre-1863- does anyone recall? Is that from an author or a newspaper?

Rebello, Len, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, Al-Zach Press, 1999
Page 186

"’A Talk with Lizzie Borden,’ Woman's Journal, Wednesday, May 24, 1893: 162-163.

Mrs. Mary Ashton (Rice) Livermore who knew Lizzie as a child, visited Lizzie in jail and recalled her visit to a reporter. Boston Post, Saturday, May 27, 1893.”

Page 256

"’Surprised and Indignant / This is How Fall River People Feel Says Reporter Who Testified for the Defense / Miss Livermore Talks / Lizzie Borden's Friend Says She Expected the Verdict,’ Boston Post, Wednesday, June 21, 1893: 2.

Sketch: The Masculine Looking Female Who Sat Inside the Rail”

Page 259

“Feminists Respond to the Verdict”

"’Mrs. Lucy Stone,’ New Bedford Evening Journal, Wednesday, June 21, 1893: 3.

Mrs. Stone was a firm believer in Miss Borden's innocence. ‘To my mind there is no point that has not been satisfactorily cleared away, although I have not much idea about the real perpetrator of the deed, for that is as dark a mystery as ever. It is certain, however, that every testimony brought against her by the government has been refuted; I hope that Lizzie will stay in Fall River, for the best thing she can do, of course, is to live it down; but that, too, is the hardest thing I know. Nevertheless, I should walk the earth as before, and should not allow this to disturb me, as far as that was concerned.’"

"Mrs. Mary A. Livermore sent the following telegram: 'Thank God, dear Lizzie, that you are acquitted. Everybody is rejoicing and the wires are freighted with the good news. I kiss you in my heart.' She also replied to reporters: 'I expected a verdict of acquittal ... Lizzie knows nothing at all about the murders ...' "

"’Mrs. Livermore and Miss Borden,’ New Bedford Daily Mercury, July 3, 1893: 5.

"Mrs. Livermore received a visit from several newspaper men to determine if Lizzie would pay a visit to Mrs. Livermore in Melrose [Massachusetts]. Mrs. Livermore was not aware of any visit but would welcome the visit."

Phillips History of Fall River, page 39-40, Fascicle II, 1941, 1945:

"This first Universalist Society was incorporated March 7, 1840 and we have a list of its pastors as follows:
Daniel P. Livermore, settled in 1845
William W. Dean settled in 1847
B.H. Davis settled in 1850.

The above appears in the Fall River Directory of 1855, but the next directory (1857) makes no reference to the Universalist Church. Investigation shows that the society had meanwhile been discontinued. Fowler says (1862) 'The Universalist Society has no meeting house and no pastor.' Further record shows that when this society was discontinued a considerable number of its members joined the Unitarian Society. Among them were the families of Chester W. Greene and John E. Grouard.

While Pastor Livermore was settled in Fall River he was married. His wife Mary A. Livermore became a famous lecturer during the Civil War period. For four years, she was on the Sanitary Commission of the federal government and was a very famous lecturer, made many friends in Fall River while her husband was pastor here. These friendships lasted during her entire life. She took great interest in the Borden murder: was accounted a friend of Lizzie Borden, and made a special trip to Fall River to see her. She was also an intimate of Mrs. Robert Adams, and on her last trip to Fall River made a special effort to meet Edward S. Adams with whom she had a lengthy and confidential conference.

'Mary Ashton Livermore, the American reformer, was born in Boston in 1821 and died in 1905. Her father was Timothy Rice. She became the wife of Daniel P. Livermore, a Universalist minister, who settled in Fall River, in 1845. She labored with much ability in behalf of the United States Sanitary Commission during the Civil War and took a prominent position as a writer and a public speaker on Woman Suffrage and various social and religious questions. She was editor of the Woman's Journal of Boston, and author of several books, including 'My Story of the War' which narrates her four years personal experience as a nurse in the Union Army.' "

--I don't know who these 2 "Adams" are, referred to above. Notice how Lizzie is described as "The Masculine Looking Female Who Sat Inside the Rail." Sarah's possible influence on Emma may have been passed on to Lizzie as her birthright? Maybe Andrew allowed his wife this freedom? Lots of questions here.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 8:58 am

Kat said:

"There is a citation which claims Sarah was good friends with one of these famous suffragettes, pre-1863- does anyone recall? Is that from an author or a newspaper? "

I remember reading the same thing Kat. But where? I will keep looking for it. For some reason I think it was Lucy Stone but you have already cited her.

If Livermore knew Lizzie when she was young she undoubtedly knew Sarah.

Then there is Mrs. Fessenden the head of the W.C.T.U. While not technically a women's movement group it had many feminist affiliations.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:16 am

Eureka, I found it.

It's Mrs. Livermore and is in Glossary A in the Knowlton Papers, page 448:

"... She took an active interest in the Borden case, having been an intimate friend of the first Mrs. Andrew J. Borden."

What is also interesting about this is that, according to the Knowlton Papers, Livermore was living in Chicago prior to 1869:

"She married Daniel Parker Livermore, a minister there, in 1845. She traveled to various Universalist church pastorates with her husband, including Fall River, Massachusetts, circa 1845. They settled in Chicago, Illinois, where she served on the Chicago Sanitary Commission. A popular lecturer during the Civil War, she was also a noted writer and speaker for woman's suffrage. She returned to the Boston area in 1869, employed as editor of the Women's Journal."

We know that Lizzie, as a young girl, attended Sunday School in Chicago. Could she have been in the temporary care of Mrs. Livermore while there?
More speculation.

And yes, I know "Eureka" means "I found it"

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 9:05 pm

You mean, as in redundant? That's funny, Har!

Well thanks for finding that. How do we equate Andrew's reputation with Sarah's ability to have such a friend? It's possible that Sarah was a future-thinker and raised her girls in the same way. If Emma and Lizzie were stunted by Abby's possible traditionalism, going against Sarah's more liberal views, then I can see some room for friction here. It might even be why Emma called Abby, "Abby" from the beginning, and why the girls expected *more.*

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:17 pm

Interesting find, Kat! I did find another link between Lizzie and Mrs. Livermore:

Meanwhile, in 1873, Mary was chosen as the first president of the Association for Advancement of Women. In 1875 she became president of the American Woman Suffrage Association and began her twenty-year presidency of the Massachusetts Woman's Christian Temperance Union.

From this site:
http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/l ... amily.html

We know that Lizzie was a member of the WCTU.

Heres a photo of Mary, circa 1901:

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:31 pm

Great info, here. And thanks for the picture, Susan.

She sure looks like she could round up some windmill workers for a church supper of (dreadful) goulash, doesn't she?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:39 pm

LOL, FHG!

Thanks Susan for the extra info.
Maybe Lizzie joined because of Sarah? That might be why Lizzie seemed committed to the WCTU early on in her association with them, but dropped them later after the trial.
Talk about Emancipation of women! Parricide would be the Ultimate in that Victorian Age!

Let's imagine that as Andrew got older and more obsessed with his fortune, he lost that bit of indulgence which he gave Sarah in their youth- where she could freely associate with a rabble-rouser. Then, upon marriage to frumpy spinster Abby, her conventional views rubbed off on him because his nature really was to be close-fisted and prejudiced. So Abby finds that her hold over Andrew is strengthened whenever she bad-mouths the girl's supposed extravagances, and their modern ways of thinking- that they should *go and do and have* in their own right. This causes the divide between father and daughters who in their early years were taught to be liberal and expect more of themselves, undaunted by their sex. Meanwhile, Abby establishes solidarity with Andrew over the girl's supposed emancipation- their outright asking for that Ferry St. property in order to be fair and equal, for example- forcing his hand. He might resent that in his old age, fueled by Abby. Lizzie once told a friend, Augusta Tripp, that she thought Mrs. Borden had more influence over the father than she seemed to or claimed to. (Inq. 144).

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:14 am

I'm a little lost here - probably due to old age on my part!

If Sarah was involved in Women's suffrage or other such causes - how can we presume that Lizzie got involved because of Sarah?? Lizzie was something on the order of two and one-half years old when Sarah died - so that anything she did "because of" Sarah in her later life would have had to be based on second-hand stories related by Emma or others.

Or are we speculating here about Andrew and Sarah earlier, when Emma was small, before Lizzie was born?

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:40 am

I guess I base my opinion that Sarah was not a Suffragette based in part on the mundane unimaginative names she gave her daughters.

On her death bed her concern is to tell Emma to watch out for Lizzie.....

Emma who was old enough to remember her mother and be affected by her teachings and personality was by all accounts as dull as dishwater and happily tethered to non feminist pursuits.

One would think that Emma, who seemed to adore her mother would have wanted to emulate her more-- and maybe she did just that.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:47 am

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread ... =300030588

VERY interesting time line here... Many of ties to Massachusetts!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 3:00 am

doug65oh @ Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:14 am wrote:I'm a little lost here - probably due to old age on my part!

If Sarah was involved in Women's suffrage or other such causes - how can we presume that Lizzie got involved because of Sarah?? Lizzie was something on the order of two and one-half years old when Sarah died - so that anything she did "because of" Sarah in her later life would have had to be based on second-hand stories related by Emma or others.

Or are we speculating here about Andrew and Sarah earlier, when Emma was small, before Lizzie was born?

Sarah died in 1863, and Emma was already fully 12 years old. If Emma was used to helping her mother through pregnancies and helped out in her last illness, she was old enough to absorb Sarah's views. (Yes, second-hand somewhat for Lizzie). The fact that Sarah was friends with Livermore seems to point to some common bond in thought or deed. Then, Emma is charged with raising Lizzie, and does imbue her with the only female views she holds dear- her mother, Sarah's and her friends.
What if what we know of Emma is so little, that she could be all kinds of things we never imagined? I was thinking I bet Emma even traveled a bit visiting around the area and we don't know this because we have not much of Emma speaking to us directly. She does say she is more on bad terms with Abby than Lizzie was. This could be because though Emma may have resisted Abby's influence because she so remembered her mother, Lizzie did not have that advantage of real memory- and only had what Emma taught her to go on- combined with Abby's influence because Lizzie was so young.
The real conflict is between Emma and Abby, with this interpretation.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:05 am

I was wondering that if Sarah and Mary were good friends during her time in Fall River and from what the article Kat posted that said she kept those friendships her lifetime, would she not have kept up a correspondance with Andrew, Lizzie and Emma? Could Mary, once appointed presidency of the WCTU, have actively sought Emma and Lizzie as members?

What if what we know of Emma is so little, that she could be all kinds of things we never imagined? I was thinking I bet Emma even traveled a bit visiting around the area and we don't know this because we have not much of Emma speaking to us directly.

Exactly, Emma as a Pisces, still waters run deep. I think there was alot more going on with that woman than we ever saw or heard about, it was all going on under that calm, placid, dull exterior. I think her passions ran deep. If Sarah did indeed pick up anything from Mary, I think you are right, Emma carried it on in her life. Emma didn't sound like she was the Victorian ideal of a female child, calling Abby by her first name, fighting with her, contesting for her rights, she sounds like she thought for herself and wasn't the meek and mild Victorian Miss that she was supposed to be.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:20 am

Yes, precisely. I think that may be our error- we discount Emma so readily. She was the driving force in that dysfunctional relationship with Abby.
If we have two budding suffragettes, squashed down by a traditional Abby, we need to speculate on the behaviours of these girls out of the context of Victorian America, and look more towrads the modern (at that time) idea of a woman and her role. That could be very stifling to Emma if she held liberal views.

Audrey · Post by **Audrey** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:07 am

But once Abby was out of the picture Emma remained as retiring as ever. Perhaps it was the publicity and notoriety of the trial-- I don't know. I agree we do not know much about Emma and maybe we do discount her to readily-- but that is where the evidence leads us. That is where the total lack of information about her leads us. I cant help but think that some reporter or journalist would have come up with something provocative about her. If there was indeed something to come up with.

lydiapinkham · Post by **lydiapinkham** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:34 pm

The connection between Sarah and Mary Livermore is fascinating. The meeting between the girls and Mary in Chicago sounds highly likely. As for Emma, being a suffragette would not have to have made the girl fascinating or sociable. She may have held strong opinions while leading a retired life. Emma has always struck me as a passive-aggressive type--one who would get things done invisibly and behind the scenes, often through other people. I imagine her attending meetings but never holding office, for instance. Lizzie, I think, liked to be in the middle of things. Emma seems to have preferred the outskirts (but maybe she wore bloomers underneath).

--Lyddie

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:38 pm

Mrs. Mary Ashton (Rice) Livermore who knew Lizzie as a child, visited Lizzie in jail and recalled her visit to a reporter. Boston Post, Saturday, May 27, 1893.”

I found this in Porter, don't know if the reporter's name was ever mentioned or if Porter is correct?

Page 143:

"About this time Mrs. Mary A. Livermore paid the accused a visit and was accorded an interview at Taunton Jail. The next day New England people were treated to a very pathetic story over the name of Amy Robsart, which was contrary to the report of Miss Borden's mental condition. Mrs. Livermore had told Miss Robsart and the latter had painted the picture."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:40 am

Here are the headlines surrounding the quote you picked out which I posted previouly from Rebello. These are from Rebello, pg. 186, in context:

"Lizzie Borden Ill"

"Lizzie Borden Ill / Suffering from Bronchitis / Will Probably Recover in Time for Her Trial," Fall River Evening News, Monday, May 15, 1893: 1.

"Lizzie Borden Ill / No Serious Results Anticipated from Her Sickness / Only Limited Space for Press Representatives at the Trial / Testimony of Medical Experts to be Introduced in the Case," New Bedford Evening Standard, Monday, May 15, 1893: 1.

"May Not Be Tried / Lizzie Borden Breaking Down Under Strain / Her Strength Rapidly Falling as Trial Approaches / Recovered from Tonsillitis But is Not Herself / Condition at Present Considered to be Serious / Fears That Her Mental Capacity May Be Impaired / Burden Resting on the Prisoner Weighs Heavily Upon Her / Acknowledged Herself That She May Not Hold Out / The Woman of Eight Months Ago and Today Two Different Persons," New Bedford Evening Standard, Monday, May 22, 1893: 1.

"Miss Borden's Health / Dr. Paige Says Her Mind is Clear and Strong / He Is Taking Precaution to Prevent a Relapse / Mrs. Livermore Makes Another Statement About the Prisoner / Avoid the Absurd / Judge Dewey's Picture," New Bedford Evening Standard, Tuesday, May 23, 1893: 3.

"Mrs. Mary Ashton (Rice) Livermore's Interview With Lizzie Borden."

"It Is An Outrage! / Mrs. Livermore Does Not Believe that Lizzie Committed the Crime / A Talk With Mr. Jennings," Fall River Daily Globe, Monday, May 1, 1893: 8.

"In Taunton Jail / Lizzie Borden Talked Freely with Mrs. Livermore About the Awful Crime / What a Fool She Would Have Been to Commit Such a Deed in Broad Daylight in Her Home / Anxious for Emma," Fall River Daily Herald, Thursday, May 18, 1893: 8.

"Lizzie Borden Speaks / Talks Freely of Horrible Crimes Charged Against Her / Tells of Discovery of Her Father's Mutilated Body / How She Might Have Murdered Her Parents if She Had Desired," New Bedford Evening Standard, Thursday, May 18, 1893: 3.
.....

"A Talk with Lizzie Borden," Woman's Journal, Wednesday, May 24, 1893: 162-163.

"Mrs. Mary Ashton (Rice) Livermore who knew Lizzie as a child, visited Lizzie in jail and recalled her visit to a reporter. Boston Post, Saturday, May 27, 1893."

"Robinson - No Visitors for Lizzie Borden."

"Lizzie Borden / No Visitors This Week Is Ex-Gov. Robinson's Edict / He Believes In Her Innocence / Borden Case Jurors Drawn from Seekonk, Raynham and Norton," Fall River Evening News, Thursday, June 1, 1893: 8.

"To See No One / Lizzie Borden Will Receive No Visitors This Week," New Bedford Evening Journal, Thursday, June 1, 1893: 3.

--One merely needs to read the headlines to know the whole story, eh? Seems like they packed it into the headlines. Note how after the Livermore brou-ha-ha blew up Lizzie was accorded no more visitors?
I bet she got a lot of attention during that 10 months of jail time. Heck, even Uncle Morse brought her dinner pail. Do you think she loved it?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:32 am

Thanks, Kat, yeah, those headlines seem to say it all, though I would still love to read the actual article that they mention. Yes, I'm am totally sure that Lizzie loved all that attention payed to her! But when I think of the hell of being in prison for a year, guilty or not, she must have been greedy for visitors of any ilk just to have someone to talk to. That must have been hard on Lizzie to have her lawyers bar further visits from outsiders so that there wasn't more "news" leaks about her mental health and such. I imagine she was still allowed visits from family members and Rev. Buck and probably Mrs. Holmes.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:19 am

Kat @ Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:46 am wrote: --I don't know who these 2 "Adams" are, referred to above. Notice how Lizzie is described as "The Masculine Looking Female Who Sat Inside the Rail." Sarah's possible influence on Emma may have been passed on to Lizzie as her birthright? Maybe Andrew allowed his wife this freedom? Lots of questions here.

This is fascinating. Livermore was probably the "masculine-looking female" -- she had quite a strong face., as you can see if you scroll about halfway down this page: http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/l ... amily.html

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:34 pm

Thanks. Yes, Livermore and Carrie Nation had strong faces. Lizzie was considered thus by some as well.
I was under the impression that "Sat Inside The Rail" was the term for a prisoner- where the defendent sat?
Isn't that the area of the court reserved for the court officials and defendent?
Maybe I'm wrong in this interpretation?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:26 am

Charlie Crowell donated to Stefani a mass of *unknown* newspaper items concerning Lizzie. Harry has transcribed them and we haven't decided what to do with them. They are sometimes bizarre.
In one, I "found" the suppposed Mary Livermore interview with Lizzie in jail. It may be condensed by the paper, which is unknown. The date is probably May 21, 1893 and is headlined:
"Lizzie Borden's Ordeal"

Here is the Livermore part:

"Mrs. Mary Livermore is one of the eminent clear-sighted women who have by personal investigation satisfied themselves of Miss Borden's innocence. She reports an interview she held with the accused in her prison, in the course of which the latter said:--

'How can they think me guilty? What a fool I must have been if I committed a crime like that in broad daylight, with the certainty of detection, with people going to and fro on the street, with Bridget washing windows and likely to come in for water at any minute, with my uncle visiting us and likely to be back at anytime, with the curtains up and the neighbors astir? I knew every foot of that house. I could have walked all over it in the dark sure of my way. Why, if I contemplated that crime should I not have done it at night? Two blows as they lay asleep, no noise, no stir; I could have opened wide the street door, made evidence of a struggle in the room, and then with plenty of time to remove from myself all traces of the blood, gone quietly to bed. But they say that I committed both crimes at noonday and removed from myself all evidences of the horrible work. How can they believe that?'

It is hard to entertain the thought that this young woman may be guilty after all. Until the proof is in and her guilt has been demonstrated beyond peradventure most people who have informed themselves in regard to the case will be inclined in one form or another to re-echo Mrs. Livermore's judgment that: 'In spite of the network of circumstantial evidence woven about her, in spite of the ninety hatchets in New Bedford--see the farce of it--Lizzie Borden asserts her innocence and I believe her.'"

Thanks Harry!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 9:59 am

Your welcome Kat. And thanks to Stef and Charlie Crowel as well.

The articles cover from May 21, 1893 to the end of the trial. Surprisingly, though written almost a year after the tragedy, they sometimes contain factual errors. It's as if they just pulled the original coverage of the events and didn't update those things later found to be untrue.

They appear to be all from the same newspaper but I have not been able to determine which one. There are hints here and there and it is certain it is not a Massachusetts paper. Most likely a New York paper as in some articles they refer to differences in court proceedings in the two states.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:39 pm

Thanks, Kat, Harry and Stefani, and Charlie Cromwell! Interesting reading. Though I have to wonder how much of it is Lizzie and how much is the reporter's take on the situation? It lines like these "with the curtains up and the neighbors astir?" that sound far too poetic for Lizzie and there were no curtains in either of the murder rooms.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:16 am

Yes, agreed. And Hiram Harrington also didn't sound like a blacksmith in his *Interview* either!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:02 am

I spent this evening indexing by hand the Charlie Crowell Lizzie collection. There's over 40 printed pages. Some of it is rot.

Anyway, Harry transcribed it all, tho I just read the printed out copy and made notes. I did find another reference to Mrs. Livermore...she was at the Columbia Exhibition whilst Lizzie was baking in jail!
Special Dispatch to The Press, dated June 18th, probably published June 19, 1893:

"HOW THE LAWYERS FEEL.

Lawyers for the prosecution and defense returned to New Bedford to-night and are now burning midnight oil, preparing for the final contest. Mr. Robinson was asked to-night what he thought of the case, did he feel confident as to the outcome? 'I do not,' he replied. 'I always view with apprehension any case in which I am concerned, while it is before a jury; we never know what to expect.'

Mr. Jennings came down from Fall River this afternoon, but he did not have any opinion to offer, beyond the declaration that he did not see how any man could hold forth that the prosecution has proved beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of Lizzie A. Borden. Lizzie is said to share the opinion of her counsel that she will be acquitted.

Mrs. Mary A. Livermore is still a strong friend to Lizzie Borden. Here is something she said to a reporter to-day, which expresses her views of the case: 'I have been to the World's Fair and have only just got back. I see I was expected to come here, and did intend to come. But Lizzie tells me that I cannot sit beside her, and that she doesn't desire me to remain, because I could not be near her. If I thought any good purpose would be subserved, I would like to stay.'

'And what do you think, Mrs. Livermore, about this case thus far presented?' was asked. 'Oh, I know it is out coming triumphantly,' was the reply. 'Why it doesn't appear to me that the prosecution has the slightest positive fact to rest upon. I do not now fear that there will be a disagreement. We shall look for an acquittal.' "

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Dec 30, 2004 8:52 pm

Wow, sounds like you and Harry have been busy and we all benefit from it here, thanks! Boy, Mrs. Livermore sure sounds confident even though one of Lizzie's own defence team wasn't so, and especially since she wasn't in the courtroom during the last days of the trial. I wonder what the reason was why she couldn't sit next to Lizzie? Did the court not want Mrs. Livermore there or was it simply something like there not being enough room (seats) in the courtroom?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:19 am

I read in there that Lizzie, during jury picking and maybe the first day of trial (after the jury's trip to Fall River), sat in the defendent's spot, like in the *dock.* But they didn't call it that. Then a bit later, by June 6th (reported June 7th) she moved and sat inside the rail ("within the bar") with her attorneys, or nearby them:

"Bridget then went on to give the details of her work early on the day of the murder, and a recess for luncheon was ordered by the Court. At this point Lizzie Borden had a new seat at the opening of the afternoon session, advancing beyond the dock rail and taking a chair within the bar inclosure, her guard, Deputy Sheriff Kirby sitting behind her."

Inside the rail was where court personnnel sat. Visitors wre not allowed usually inside the rail.
However, near closing argument time, special visitors were granted room in the sacrosanct middle area:

"Unknown newspaper, June 20, 1893"

"FOR AND AGAINST
LIZZIE BORDEN.

Defense and Commonwealth Present
Their Opposed Arguments.

RECITAL OF THE TRAGEDY.

Ex-Governor Robinson Holds it Impossible
for His Client to Have Done the Deed.

NO PROOF OF HER GUILT.

Mr. Knowlton's Reply - Malice Against the
Step-Mother Claimed - The Prosecution's
Theory of the Murders.

Special Despatch to The Press.
New Bedford, Mass., June 19. --

..."Inside the lower corridor was filled with impatient, petulant, perspiring femininity, the favored few who had secured so much of a pull as to get at least a foothold in the building. Sheriff Wright was, however, monarch of all he surveyed, and his fiat ruled both Court and bar. Nobody got upstairs except by his gracious diction, and the privilege was very sparingly extended after the regular seats were filled. Before 9 o'clock everyone of those had been taken and camp chairs were at a premium.

Within the bar was an august assemblage of eminent jurists, notable among whom was the striking face beneath his crown of white hair of Hon. John Winslow, for many years District Attorney of Kings County, N.Y., and president of the New England Association of Brooklyn, N.Y.; William E. Stearns and Mr. Butler of Stearn's and Butler, of Boston; Charles M. Stetson and E. L. Barney, of New Bedford; Drs. Bowen and Dwelly, of Fall River; Rev. Mr. Calley, of Cambridge, and many interested members of the medical and ministerial professions.

When Lizzie was brought in a hush fell upon the crowd. She carried a big bouquet of pinks, which ex-Governor Robinson sniffed as he spoke to her. She seemed in cheerful spirits."

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:08 am

Thanks for that, Kat. Yes, I kind of figured that casual visitors wouldn't be allowed to sit in the rail with Lizzie, but, wasn't there court seating behind that? I'm not quite sure how the courtroom was figured and I think I have the image from the Legend movie too fresh in my mind of how they had the courtroom laid out.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:01 pm

Prior to these gentlemen being allowed this seating for the closing arguments:

"Lizzie Borden was promptly in her seat this morning a full five minutes before the coming of the court and the ringing of the bell announced the opening of the second day of the great trial. The jurors followed immediately upon her advent. The ladies put in an appearance this morning quite early, among them the little veiled lady of Fall River police court room's cherished memory. Mrs. Charles E. Barnes was the only lady within the bar, the remaining fair ones filling the left witness box as the forenoon progressed with a maze of bright contrasting colors in the pretty array of smart Summer gowns.
The formality of calling the jury was gone through with at once. Clerk Simeon Borden then read to them the indictments charging the prisoner with the murder of Andrew J. and Abbie Durfee Borden, at Fall River, August 4, with an axe. During the reading Miss Borden assumed that favored position which characterized her during the hearing at Fall River last Fall, her head thrown forward and her eyes partly closed."--reported June 6th, 1893

Do I recall that Lizzie's pastors were allowed to sit with her?
Maybe the court was capricious in their decision as to who to allow in the center area? Maybe they wanted no Suffragette?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:05 pm

Thanks, it looks like there is another one of those railings behind Lizzie that is in front of those two ladies in the foreground. Perhaps there was more seating behind there also? Yes, wasn't Reverend Buck seated with Lizzie often? I don't think its in any of the source documents, just the newspaper reports. And there is that drawing of Lizzie and Emma seated together on a bench in court, so she sat with Lizzie at least once. Maybe it was up to the whim of the court as to who got in and who didn't, I think you're right, a Suffragette wouldn't be high on their list of esteemed guests.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:32 pm

Yes I think you're right. And just behind Lizzie's new seat is a very tight row of seats. It is like a long, very narrow corridor for seating. I think that's where she used to sit, the "dock" area.

Here is a recent photo. See in the foreground where those two rails are, very close together? Between them was seating, very narrow. I think that was supposed to be the defendent's area to sit.

Hi Harry! Hi Stefani!

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:23 am

Cool, thanks! That makes it clearer for me. So, Lizzie sat in that space by herself when the trial first started? Doesn't look very comfortable if you're claustrophobic.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:14 pm

Please excuse the "giantness", but here are 2 pictures of me in THE seat where Lizzie sat (according to the court officer). It was narrow, but I didn't feel uncomfortable. Both pictures are the same..but one is a close up (my avatar).

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:17 pm

Thanks, Tracy! Please, giantess, I don't think so. That made me recall seeing an illustration of Lizzie, Emma, Rev. Buck, I assume Lizzie's other Reverand friend and possibly Mrs. Holmes all seated on a bench that looked like one of those long benchs in the courtroom. Wish I could remember where I saw it, but, Lizzie was seated all the way to the left of the bench.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:20 am

Thanks Tracy!
You're so cute!!

Susan, is this the pic you recall? It is from The Sourcebook. It is of the Preliminary Hearing in Fall River.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:38 am

Next time I go to Lizzie's, I hope to be able to get more pictures in the courtroom. Plus, I want to sit in the jury box. I think there would be some very interesting vibes there. What would be REALLY great is to have a copy of the trial transcripts in hand...and read through them while in THE courtroom.

Tracy...

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:10 am

Kat, the one I'm thinking of is just a pen and ink drawing of all of them on that bench, trying to do a search and see if I can find it online somewhere.

I did find this little tidbit though so far, speaking of courtrooms:

Bronze Plaque Lizzie Borden, Courtroom Rail, Engraved, C.1892, 6 X 4 1/2 In. 2002 price

From this site: http://pages.kovels.com/55/InventoryPage/1403/14.html

And an article written on Julian Ralph, one of the reporters who covered Lizzie's trial for the Sun:

http://www.geocities.com/~roggenkamp/borden.html

Sorry, can't find it, must be in a book then.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:30 pm

Well, this looks like a drawing of all of them seated together...to me.
If you can remember more detail, I might find it in my cache of drawings from the newspapers.

Tracy, the courtroom now is reversed and the jury box is on the other side and so have they switched the location of the witness stand. So if you go again, stand in the opposite places to absorb the vibe.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:21 am

Kat, in the illustration I'm thinking of there are 5 people total seated on the bench, the inscription beneath was something like Miss Lizzie Borden, Miss Emma Borden and Friends. From left to right there was Lizzie, Emma, Rev. Buck, another man and a woman. If I recall correctly the drawing only showed them from the heads down to their waists. Sorry, don't mean to make you go on a mad goose chase.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

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