I am almost done with Book 2...with the reading part anyway. I still need to type up my thoughts. It has been interesting reading. I should have something ready by later tonight or first thing in the morning. How are the rest of you coming along ?
Tracy...
BORDEN BOOK CLUB (Lincoln / Book 2)
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theebmonique
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BORDEN BOOK CLUB (Lincoln / Book 2)
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theebmonique
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Nancie,
I mentioned in a past post that maybe we should have a new thread for each section that we read. It was just an idea so that if someone wanted to read back through our posts...that it would be more organized if we did one thread for each section. Book 2 refers to A Private Disgrace (Book 2 - Why Lizzie Was Suspected). Sorry if I confused you. Would you rather have all the chapters all together in one thread ?
Tracy...
I mentioned in a past post that maybe we should have a new thread for each section that we read. It was just an idea so that if someone wanted to read back through our posts...that it would be more organized if we did one thread for each section. Book 2 refers to A Private Disgrace (Book 2 - Why Lizzie Was Suspected). Sorry if I confused you. Would you rather have all the chapters all together in one thread ?
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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theebmonique
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Allen
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32. (Lizzie) “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron. Then I heard a distressing noise.” (Not the yard, now: it would take only a few seconds to realize that in such a crowd, busy neighborhood one might have been seen coming back from the barn.) I just can’t see Lizzie making up this plan, to be seen coming from the barn, ahead of time. First of all she was lazy, second how could she KNOW for SURE that someone would notice her in the few steps from the barn to the house ?
I don't think she made up the story ahead of time. I don't think Lincoln did either.It can be seen from how her story evolves, which Lincoln comments on, that I don't think she had anything made up ahead of time.First she was in the yard. Then in the barn getting iron to fix a screen, then lead and so on. I think if she had planned it ahead of time it wouldn't have gone through so many changes.Lizzie may have been a little on the lazy side, but I am one who does not believe she was any kind of dullard.As for how could she know for sure? Well when you commit a murder, I would think you would want to cover your back side any way you knew how, and cover your bases.If Lizzie did go to the barn, to break off the hatchet handle or whatever, she would want to explain why in CASE she had been seen. Better to be safe then sorry later.
40. (Incidentally, when you read Lizzie’s own description of her morning, you will observe that it was just as odd for the bengaline produced in court to have been spic-and-span from a morning’s wearing as it was that hovering friends saw no blood on the Bedford cord. The bengaline should have been creased, sweaty. And streaked with thick dust from the hayloft.) OK, now I have to wonder if when Lizzie said she was in the loft, that she didn’t just mean
on her way to the loft....stopping on the ladder once she say how dusty it was up there ?
She spent 20 minutes on a ladder eating pears and looking out a window?
Chapter 15 -
41. Dust lay think on the floor, on everything; five minutes in that place would leave you streaked with sweat and grime. Medley stared at the floor. He bent forward and laid his hands, palms down, in the dust. He backed down the ladder until his eyes were at the level of the floor, and looked. His hand-prints showed plainly, but elsewhere the dust lay
undisturbed; neither feet nor trailing skirt had crossed that floor for a long time. Exactly, if she never actually sat down up IN the loft, it could explain the undisturbed dust which Officer Medley describes.
Lizzie's own words firmly state she was up IN the loft. In her inquest testimony, and in the witness statements.Lizzie's inquest testimony, the copy of which I am using from the Lizzie Borden SourceBook.
Q. You were searching in a box of old stuff in the loft of the barn?
A. Yes sir, upstairs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. Where did you look upstairs?
A. On a work- bench like.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. When you got through looking at the lead did you come down?
A. No sir. I went to the west window over the hay, to the west window, and the curtain
was slanted a little. I pulled it down.
Q. What else?
A. Nothing.
Q. That is all you did?
A. Yes sir.
Q.That is the second story of the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q.Was the window open?
A. I think not.
Q.Hot?
A. Very hot.
Q.How long do you think you were up there?
A.Not more than 15 or 20 minutes, I should think.
Q. Should you think what you have told me would occupy four minutes?
A.Yes, because I ate some pears up there.
Q.I asked you to tell me all you did.
A.I told you all I did.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42. Dr. Bowen stood apart from the rest, in the door of the kitchen entry at the head of the cellar stairs.He was busy at an odd task, which caught Officer Harrington’s eye. The scraps of a penciled note, torn very fine, were in his hand, and he was trying to fit them together like a jigsaw puzzle and read them.Officer Harrington asked what he had found.Dr. Bowen said, “Oh, I guess it’s nothing.”He crossed the room hurriedly and stood by the stove, which stood against the further wall. He went on trying to read. Harrington, bending over, saw the penciled word Emma on a scrap torn from an upper corner.Emma, Harrington knew, was the elder daughter; his curiosity was heightened and he asked again.Dr, Bowen’s reply was of a remarkable vagueness. “Oh, it is nothing, it is something I think, about my daughter going through somewhere.He lifted the stove lid and dropped the scraps upon the burning coals. Dr. Bowen seems to be showing some real signs of stress here.I think he felt so close to the Borden girls, the family in general that he was as nearly in shock as they were.
I have always found this VERY suspicious. He happened to destroy a note, when they had been looking for a note? And how did the police let him destroy it without first confirming who it was from, and what its contents were??
Chapter 16 -
43. A bundled-up blanket lay on the floor of Emma’s closet. They had tp push hard on the door to close it again, but they did not examine the bundle.(Alice mentioned this at the trial, as she mentioned the fact that Lizzie was just coming out of Emma’s room when she first brought Dr. Bowen back to her...) Now this BUNDLE is something I wish we had more on.
Me also. I cannot believe, again, that the police did not investigate the closet further.
45. Well, as I suggested at the start, people have always tended to become emotionally involved with Lizzie. Her defenders that is; her accusers have usually preferred to smirk. Both, I suppose, are natural reactions, if you are writing about a legend an not a real woman who lived up the street. OUCH...another reminder about being from the hill...or being below the hill. How you could not study or write about this woman, this case, this bit of history and not have some emotion about it, it beyond me. (Hmmm, isn’t it interesting that where Lincoln lived, was technically ‘below’ the hill ??? - per Kat, from her posts about Lincoln’s family addresses in Fall River)
Lizzie has become so much of a legend that most people have a hard time remembering she was once flesh and blood just like the rest of us. That she was human, and had pretty much with the same human needs, emotions, wants, and lived day to day just as we do. She has become the stuff of myth, and as such is hard to relate into an everyday person.Some people tend to almost romanticize her, which is how I took what Lincoln said.
46. I think poor Dr. Bowen was “super-stressed”. In his state of shock, he seems to lose his senses. His medical background alone should have told him Abby did not die first.
Abby did die first. Was that a typo?
A few things I wanted to comment on.
Page 106 " His long legs sprawled off the sofa sideways to the floor. He had changed into his customary short house jacket, but not to the slippers that he always wore with it; his feet were still in their elastic sided Congress boots."
Where does this information about the slippers come from? And that picture of Andrew has always bothered me. That always looked like an uncomfortable place to take a nap to me. That looks like a very uncomfortable position to nap in also. I know it has been stated that the body sunk down a little but, to me that still looks like a rather odd position to me, uncomfortable even. And look at his hands.If he wanted to nap, wouldn't he have been more comfortable on his bed Why nap on a couch that was too small for him?
page 107." And when in response he only asked where her mother was, she told him about the note,but not, as she had told Addie, that she thought she had heard her come back in the house."
Lizzie did tell Mrs. Churchill she thought she heard Abby come in. Why then had she not made Bowen aware of this? She did not mention the fact that she thought she heard Abby come in again until Bowen had gone to send the wire.
page 110.
This has always lead me to believe Miss Russell was unsure if Mr. Morse may or may not have been in the house. She did not ask "Have you found her?" Or mention Mrs. Borden specifically.
page 115" Dr. Bowen asked,"Did you look in her pocket?" ( Her hand-bag, he meant; he was antebellum in his speech, and he used the word as in "Lucky Locket lost her pocket, Kitty Fisher found it").
This, you observe, was an odd question. When a woman goes out, she takes her handbag with her. Moreover, one curious enough to search that small house of many rooms to find and read a letter sent to another could scarcely, in the course of the search, have avoided finding a large dead body as well".
Does Lincoln have a point here? Is this why Lizzie decided not to tell that story again? Is this more evidence of how her story kept evolving as she
had more time to think?
I don't think she made up the story ahead of time. I don't think Lincoln did either.It can be seen from how her story evolves, which Lincoln comments on, that I don't think she had anything made up ahead of time.First she was in the yard. Then in the barn getting iron to fix a screen, then lead and so on. I think if she had planned it ahead of time it wouldn't have gone through so many changes.Lizzie may have been a little on the lazy side, but I am one who does not believe she was any kind of dullard.As for how could she know for sure? Well when you commit a murder, I would think you would want to cover your back side any way you knew how, and cover your bases.If Lizzie did go to the barn, to break off the hatchet handle or whatever, she would want to explain why in CASE she had been seen. Better to be safe then sorry later.
40. (Incidentally, when you read Lizzie’s own description of her morning, you will observe that it was just as odd for the bengaline produced in court to have been spic-and-span from a morning’s wearing as it was that hovering friends saw no blood on the Bedford cord. The bengaline should have been creased, sweaty. And streaked with thick dust from the hayloft.) OK, now I have to wonder if when Lizzie said she was in the loft, that she didn’t just mean
on her way to the loft....stopping on the ladder once she say how dusty it was up there ?
She spent 20 minutes on a ladder eating pears and looking out a window?
Chapter 15 -
41. Dust lay think on the floor, on everything; five minutes in that place would leave you streaked with sweat and grime. Medley stared at the floor. He bent forward and laid his hands, palms down, in the dust. He backed down the ladder until his eyes were at the level of the floor, and looked. His hand-prints showed plainly, but elsewhere the dust lay
undisturbed; neither feet nor trailing skirt had crossed that floor for a long time. Exactly, if she never actually sat down up IN the loft, it could explain the undisturbed dust which Officer Medley describes.
Lizzie's own words firmly state she was up IN the loft. In her inquest testimony, and in the witness statements.Lizzie's inquest testimony, the copy of which I am using from the Lizzie Borden SourceBook.
Q. You were searching in a box of old stuff in the loft of the barn?
A. Yes sir, upstairs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. Where did you look upstairs?
A. On a work- bench like.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. When you got through looking at the lead did you come down?
A. No sir. I went to the west window over the hay, to the west window, and the curtain
was slanted a little. I pulled it down.
Q. What else?
A. Nothing.
Q. That is all you did?
A. Yes sir.
Q.That is the second story of the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q.Was the window open?
A. I think not.
Q.Hot?
A. Very hot.
Q.How long do you think you were up there?
A.Not more than 15 or 20 minutes, I should think.
Q. Should you think what you have told me would occupy four minutes?
A.Yes, because I ate some pears up there.
Q.I asked you to tell me all you did.
A.I told you all I did.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
42. Dr. Bowen stood apart from the rest, in the door of the kitchen entry at the head of the cellar stairs.He was busy at an odd task, which caught Officer Harrington’s eye. The scraps of a penciled note, torn very fine, were in his hand, and he was trying to fit them together like a jigsaw puzzle and read them.Officer Harrington asked what he had found.Dr. Bowen said, “Oh, I guess it’s nothing.”He crossed the room hurriedly and stood by the stove, which stood against the further wall. He went on trying to read. Harrington, bending over, saw the penciled word Emma on a scrap torn from an upper corner.Emma, Harrington knew, was the elder daughter; his curiosity was heightened and he asked again.Dr, Bowen’s reply was of a remarkable vagueness. “Oh, it is nothing, it is something I think, about my daughter going through somewhere.He lifted the stove lid and dropped the scraps upon the burning coals. Dr. Bowen seems to be showing some real signs of stress here.I think he felt so close to the Borden girls, the family in general that he was as nearly in shock as they were.
I have always found this VERY suspicious. He happened to destroy a note, when they had been looking for a note? And how did the police let him destroy it without first confirming who it was from, and what its contents were??
Chapter 16 -
43. A bundled-up blanket lay on the floor of Emma’s closet. They had tp push hard on the door to close it again, but they did not examine the bundle.(Alice mentioned this at the trial, as she mentioned the fact that Lizzie was just coming out of Emma’s room when she first brought Dr. Bowen back to her...) Now this BUNDLE is something I wish we had more on.
Me also. I cannot believe, again, that the police did not investigate the closet further.
45. Well, as I suggested at the start, people have always tended to become emotionally involved with Lizzie. Her defenders that is; her accusers have usually preferred to smirk. Both, I suppose, are natural reactions, if you are writing about a legend an not a real woman who lived up the street. OUCH...another reminder about being from the hill...or being below the hill. How you could not study or write about this woman, this case, this bit of history and not have some emotion about it, it beyond me. (Hmmm, isn’t it interesting that where Lincoln lived, was technically ‘below’ the hill ??? - per Kat, from her posts about Lincoln’s family addresses in Fall River)
Lizzie has become so much of a legend that most people have a hard time remembering she was once flesh and blood just like the rest of us. That she was human, and had pretty much with the same human needs, emotions, wants, and lived day to day just as we do. She has become the stuff of myth, and as such is hard to relate into an everyday person.Some people tend to almost romanticize her, which is how I took what Lincoln said.
46. I think poor Dr. Bowen was “super-stressed”. In his state of shock, he seems to lose his senses. His medical background alone should have told him Abby did not die first.
Abby did die first. Was that a typo?
A few things I wanted to comment on.
Page 106 " His long legs sprawled off the sofa sideways to the floor. He had changed into his customary short house jacket, but not to the slippers that he always wore with it; his feet were still in their elastic sided Congress boots."
Where does this information about the slippers come from? And that picture of Andrew has always bothered me. That always looked like an uncomfortable place to take a nap to me. That looks like a very uncomfortable position to nap in also. I know it has been stated that the body sunk down a little but, to me that still looks like a rather odd position to me, uncomfortable even. And look at his hands.If he wanted to nap, wouldn't he have been more comfortable on his bed Why nap on a couch that was too small for him?
page 107." And when in response he only asked where her mother was, she told him about the note,but not, as she had told Addie, that she thought she had heard her come back in the house."
Lizzie did tell Mrs. Churchill she thought she heard Abby come in. Why then had she not made Bowen aware of this? She did not mention the fact that she thought she heard Abby come in again until Bowen had gone to send the wire.
page 110.
This has always lead me to believe Miss Russell was unsure if Mr. Morse may or may not have been in the house. She did not ask "Have you found her?" Or mention Mrs. Borden specifically.
page 115" Dr. Bowen asked,"Did you look in her pocket?" ( Her hand-bag, he meant; he was antebellum in his speech, and he used the word as in "Lucky Locket lost her pocket, Kitty Fisher found it").
This, you observe, was an odd question. When a woman goes out, she takes her handbag with her. Moreover, one curious enough to search that small house of many rooms to find and read a letter sent to another could scarcely, in the course of the search, have avoided finding a large dead body as well".
Does Lincoln have a point here? Is this why Lizzie decided not to tell that story again? Is this more evidence of how her story kept evolving as she
had more time to think?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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theebmonique
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Whew...bad typo on my part. Thanks for noticing it Allen. I did mean to say "Abby DID die first" I will correct it on my copy.Lizzie has become so much of a legend that most people have a hard time remembering she was once flesh and blood just like the rest of us. That she was human, and had pretty much with the same human needs, emotions, wants, and lived day to day just as we do. She has become the stuff of myth, and as such is hard to relate into an everyday person.Some people tend to almost romanticize her, which is how I took what Lincoln said.
46. I think poor Dr. Bowen was “super-stressed”. In his state of shock, he seems to lose his senses. His medical background alone should have told him Abby did not die first.
Abby did die first.
I still am not sure Lizzie was in the loft like she describes in her testimony. Something has to account for the fact that Officer Medley saw no evidence to say she WAS there.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Allen
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Lizzie's words firmly state she was up IN the loft.I put that whole thing there, and did not put my comments afterward. I hate that I did that 
.Cause I made it seem I was taking Lizzie's word, and I never do that! I don't think she was in the loft at all either. Not even on the ladder on the way up. I think it was all part of her alibi. You said maybe she was on the ladder, she so firmly states she was up there eating pears and looking out the window, it didn't mesh to me.But, I am thinking like you. That she wasn't up there at all.
.Cause I made it seem I was taking Lizzie's word, and I never do that! I don't think she was in the loft at all either. Not even on the ladder on the way up. I think it was all part of her alibi. You said maybe she was on the ladder, she so firmly states she was up there eating pears and looking out the window, it didn't mesh to me.But, I am thinking like you. That she wasn't up there at all."He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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theebmonique
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I really do want Lizzie to be innocent. But, I have a hard time with parts of her story. The loft story is just one of them. Maybe it what just what came to her mind at the time...so she went with it.
Maybe it was the bromo-caffeine that Dr. Bowen gave her that made her change her story, and made her memory of where she was and what she did a bit 'askew'. I know this is not an original thought, but at the moment it seems plausible.
Tracy...
Maybe it was the bromo-caffeine that Dr. Bowen gave her that made her change her story, and made her memory of where she was and what she did a bit 'askew'. I know this is not an original thought, but at the moment it seems plausible.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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diana
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Things in Book Two that bother me --
If the entire banking community knew about the proposed Swansea property transfer – as Lincoln implies in Book One – why would it not have filtered down to the D.A. ? V.L. says it never did.
Why does Lincoln say Mullaly’s testimony shows him to be somewhat of a “dim-witted young man”?
He was 44 years old – which wasn’t ‘young’ in those days -- and his testimony seems lucid enough to me.
Why does Lincoln say Eli Bence had been a pharmacist at Smith’s for 14 years ? According to Rebello – Bence was 27 at the time of the trial – so he was 13 when he got his degree? ( At the inquest, Bence said he’d worked at Smith’s for just over 3 years.)
Why does she say more than once that Lizzie told Bowen she looked in Abby’s pocket/purse for the note? Although Alice says Bowen asked Lizzie if she did – she says Lizzie did not answer before Alice jumped in and suggested Abby probably burned the note –and Lizzie testified at the inquest that she, herself, did not look for the note but that others did.
As far as Lizzie changing from the “hot as hell” bengaline dress into the pink wrapper. Wouldn’t those ladies who ministered to her right after the murders be struck by the inappropriateness of what Lincoln calls a heavy “winter party dress” on a warm August morning and remember it clearly -- instead of making vague suggestions that she had on normal summer attire?
And was there really time for Lincoln’s scenario that has Lizzie dispatching Andrew, slipping off the bloody Prince Albert coat and tucking it under him, running out to the barn, washing the hatchet and breaking off the handle, hurrying back into the house to put the stick in the stove, running down to the cellar and reaching up to put the newly washed handle in the box in the chimney jog, whipping back upstairs to the sitting room to check Andrew’s pockets and put the incriminating deed on the fire, finding the broken lock in his pocket and running upstairs to her room to get the wrappers she was addressing, darting back downstairs again with a blank one to wrap the lock in (because she was thinking clearly enough to figure out that witnesses would say her father had come home with a package and the lock wrapped in paper could simulate that package) --and then calling up to Bridget who must truly have been marveling at the usually lazy Miss Lizzie whirling around the house like a deranged dervish.
And does everyone think Lizzie was so adept at using a vise that she could establish the correct tension to break off the handle in the few minutes allowed for the task? And wasn’t there a discussion on the forum that showed Lincoln was the only person to claim there was a “vise” in the barn?
All right -- once again I’ve ended up with a negative rant against poor Victoria. Not productive. Please don’t hate me for letting down the side, guys – but I don’t think I’m going keep reading Lincoln. I see now what people mean about getting infected with Lincolnisms – and I’m starting to get more than a little worried this is happening to me.
If the entire banking community knew about the proposed Swansea property transfer – as Lincoln implies in Book One – why would it not have filtered down to the D.A. ? V.L. says it never did.
Why does Lincoln say Mullaly’s testimony shows him to be somewhat of a “dim-witted young man”?
He was 44 years old – which wasn’t ‘young’ in those days -- and his testimony seems lucid enough to me.
Why does Lincoln say Eli Bence had been a pharmacist at Smith’s for 14 years ? According to Rebello – Bence was 27 at the time of the trial – so he was 13 when he got his degree? ( At the inquest, Bence said he’d worked at Smith’s for just over 3 years.)
Why does she say more than once that Lizzie told Bowen she looked in Abby’s pocket/purse for the note? Although Alice says Bowen asked Lizzie if she did – she says Lizzie did not answer before Alice jumped in and suggested Abby probably burned the note –and Lizzie testified at the inquest that she, herself, did not look for the note but that others did.
As far as Lizzie changing from the “hot as hell” bengaline dress into the pink wrapper. Wouldn’t those ladies who ministered to her right after the murders be struck by the inappropriateness of what Lincoln calls a heavy “winter party dress” on a warm August morning and remember it clearly -- instead of making vague suggestions that she had on normal summer attire?
And was there really time for Lincoln’s scenario that has Lizzie dispatching Andrew, slipping off the bloody Prince Albert coat and tucking it under him, running out to the barn, washing the hatchet and breaking off the handle, hurrying back into the house to put the stick in the stove, running down to the cellar and reaching up to put the newly washed handle in the box in the chimney jog, whipping back upstairs to the sitting room to check Andrew’s pockets and put the incriminating deed on the fire, finding the broken lock in his pocket and running upstairs to her room to get the wrappers she was addressing, darting back downstairs again with a blank one to wrap the lock in (because she was thinking clearly enough to figure out that witnesses would say her father had come home with a package and the lock wrapped in paper could simulate that package) --and then calling up to Bridget who must truly have been marveling at the usually lazy Miss Lizzie whirling around the house like a deranged dervish.
And does everyone think Lizzie was so adept at using a vise that she could establish the correct tension to break off the handle in the few minutes allowed for the task? And wasn’t there a discussion on the forum that showed Lincoln was the only person to claim there was a “vise” in the barn?
All right -- once again I’ve ended up with a negative rant against poor Victoria. Not productive. Please don’t hate me for letting down the side, guys – but I don’t think I’m going keep reading Lincoln. I see now what people mean about getting infected with Lincolnisms – and I’m starting to get more than a little worried this is happening to me.
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theebmonique
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Diana,
You bring up MANY great points. Please don't stop reading APD now. We need you to help us newbies through it. I didn'realize I was, as you so aptly put it, 'getting infected with Lincolnisms'. But I am thinking you may be right. I do know that this book is certainly not the most factual, but by reading was is NOT true, I myself am learning so much about what IS true. Again, please don't stop now, even though I am guessing, you have read this book before. If nothing else, will you at least read what we post and make some comments/corrections ?
Tracy...
You bring up MANY great points. Please don't stop reading APD now. We need you to help us newbies through it. I didn'realize I was, as you so aptly put it, 'getting infected with Lincolnisms'. But I am thinking you may be right. I do know that this book is certainly not the most factual, but by reading was is NOT true, I myself am learning so much about what IS true. Again, please don't stop now, even though I am guessing, you have read this book before. If nothing else, will you at least read what we post and make some comments/corrections ?
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Haulover
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***As far as Lizzie changing from the “hot as hell” bengaline dress into the pink wrapper. Wouldn’t those ladies who ministered to her right after the murders be struck by the inappropriateness of what Lincoln calls a heavy “winter party dress” on a warm August morning and remember it clearly -- instead of making vague suggestions that she had on normal summer attire? ***
i agree. no one saw it. mrs. churchill is sure she wasn't wearing it. even officer doherty was willing to say it is not like what he remembered.
i agree. no one saw it. mrs. churchill is sure she wasn't wearing it. even officer doherty was willing to say it is not like what he remembered.
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diana
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Allen
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Mrs. Churchill said that the dress Lizzie turned in to the police as being the one she wore that day,the bengaline, was not the dress she remembered Lizzie wearing.Haulover @ Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:59 am wrote: i agree. no one saw it. mrs. churchill is sure she wasn't wearing it. even officer doherty was willing to say it is not like what he remembered.
page 352/ i374
Q. Will you describe the dress she had on while you were there?
A.It looked like a light blue with a white ground work; it seemed like calico or cambric,
and it had a light blue and white ground work with a dark navy blue diamond printed on it.
Q. Was the whole dress alike, the skirt and waste?
A.It looked so to me.
Q.Was this the dress she had on this morning?
(Showing the dark- blue dress)
A.It does not look like it.
Q.Was it?
A. That is not the dress I have described.
Q.Was it,the dress she had on?
A.I did not see her with it on that morning.
Q.Didn't see her with this dress on that morning?
A. No, sir.
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353/ i 375
Q. How long had she had that dress?
A.I don't know.
Q.You don't know?
A. No, sir.
Q.Do you recall her wearing it before at any time?
A.Yes, sir.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
- Location: Ogden, Utah
LOL...Diana,
I could not have been a cheerleader...All that jumping around would have blackened both my eyes ! (Yes, part of that was stolen from one of Dolly Parton's lines in Best Little Whorehouse in Texas...but it's true.)
I am excited about this because, even though I have made several boo-boos, I am learning about this case at warp speed. Reading this book, even if it is Lincoln, has helped me to focus in on things. One of my comments in this most recent section was something like..."Did I just agree with Lincoln?" I appreciate it when one of the members here points out what is fact and what is Lincoln. I realize as I get into deeper discussions about this case, I will make mistakes about certain facts and bits of information. It is in being corrected about these mistakes, that I will learn more.
Thank you so much for all of your help.
Tracy...
P.S. Yes, if you start defending Lincoln...a forum intervention will be organized and we will come and deprogram you...LOL
I could not have been a cheerleader...All that jumping around would have blackened both my eyes ! (Yes, part of that was stolen from one of Dolly Parton's lines in Best Little Whorehouse in Texas...but it's true.)
I am excited about this because, even though I have made several boo-boos, I am learning about this case at warp speed. Reading this book, even if it is Lincoln, has helped me to focus in on things. One of my comments in this most recent section was something like..."Did I just agree with Lincoln?" I appreciate it when one of the members here points out what is fact and what is Lincoln. I realize as I get into deeper discussions about this case, I will make mistakes about certain facts and bits of information. It is in being corrected about these mistakes, that I will learn more.
Thank you so much for all of your help.
Tracy...
P.S. Yes, if you start defending Lincoln...a forum intervention will be organized and we will come and deprogram you...LOL
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
I had to comment on Lincoln's description of patrolman Allen. He must have discovered the fountain of youth if Lincoln is correct.
Chapter 13 -
36. A crowd of neighbors had begun to gather as Uncle John came back. Small knots of people stood staring at the house and talking. But at that point his phenomenal gift of observation failed him utterly. He did not notice them. He did not notice the many male voices sounding from open windows as he walked beneath them. He did not notice the bulky Mr. Sawyer, still standing guard at the side door and waiting for young Officer Allen ...
Allen, if not the oldest, was certainly near the top in age. He was born in 1838 making him 54 at the time of the murders. Here's his photo from Porter:
A minor mistake perhaps but Lincoln's book is riddled with things like this. Diana commented on the vise. I, too, remember discussing it in the past. No where else but Lincoln is a vise in the barn mentioned. I believe she also mentions hammers in the barn. Again, they are also absent from any other account.
Chapter 13 -
36. A crowd of neighbors had begun to gather as Uncle John came back. Small knots of people stood staring at the house and talking. But at that point his phenomenal gift of observation failed him utterly. He did not notice them. He did not notice the many male voices sounding from open windows as he walked beneath them. He did not notice the bulky Mr. Sawyer, still standing guard at the side door and waiting for young Officer Allen ...
Allen, if not the oldest, was certainly near the top in age. He was born in 1838 making him 54 at the time of the murders. Here's his photo from Porter:
A minor mistake perhaps but Lincoln's book is riddled with things like this. Diana commented on the vise. I, too, remember discussing it in the past. No where else but Lincoln is a vise in the barn mentioned. I believe she also mentions hammers in the barn. Again, they are also absent from any other account.
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Audrey
- Posts: 2048
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:14 am
- Real Name:
Poor Vickie.....
I get irked at her tendency to present her opinion as fact... I also get tired of her tedious nouveau wannabe attitude... But, as usual... I digress!
On page 103-104 we have Vicks saying:
The memories were so consistent and detailed, so detailed that I must assure you in advance that I am not inventing as I write. If I quote, if I describe a look, act, or gesture, or even tell what someone was thinking about, I am always quoting a witness’s memories or making a running digest of actual evidence given in court. One or two touches in this narrative are drawn from the reportage of the preliminary investigation, but most of it, almost all in fact, comes from the complete trial transcript, that two-thousand page revelation, my chief source for all such details in this book, and my only source for words that people speak.
Then.... Page 105 she states:
(Lizzie) “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron. Then I heard a distressing noise.”
(Not the yard, now: it would take only a few seconds to realize that in such a crowd, busy neighborhood one might have been seen coming back from the barn
Ok... Which is it? Testimony ONLY or opinion? Where did Lizzie testify... Well... I realized the crowd would have seen me.. so.. I umm.. changed my story...
It is the inconsitencies she resorts to that annoy me. I have accepted that she was riddled with insecurities and wished, at every opportunity to state her opinion of her social position.
Another thing... When she (or anyone else) make a great to-do about Lizzie not being hot, sweaty and having a creased dress... Some people do not sweat the same as others.
I seldom sweat-- I can be in a fur cape, complete with hat in a car with the heat set to 85 and the fan set to high and "feel" hot (uncomfortably hot even) -- but I do not sweat.. Period.
My friend Jane can garden all day-- be outside digging in the dirt and with a brush of her hands seem to repel dirt.. Some of us may not attract dirt!
Also-- That darn attic floor--- Someone tell me if I am wrong in this-- But wouldn't a hand, with a body temperature (and the possibility of the ever popular sweat) make a mark in a floor when a shoe (with no "body temp" that is not sweaty) would not make a mark??
I get irked at her tendency to present her opinion as fact... I also get tired of her tedious nouveau wannabe attitude... But, as usual... I digress!
On page 103-104 we have Vicks saying:
The memories were so consistent and detailed, so detailed that I must assure you in advance that I am not inventing as I write. If I quote, if I describe a look, act, or gesture, or even tell what someone was thinking about, I am always quoting a witness’s memories or making a running digest of actual evidence given in court. One or two touches in this narrative are drawn from the reportage of the preliminary investigation, but most of it, almost all in fact, comes from the complete trial transcript, that two-thousand page revelation, my chief source for all such details in this book, and my only source for words that people speak.
Then.... Page 105 she states:
(Lizzie) “I went to the barn to get a piece of iron. Then I heard a distressing noise.”
(Not the yard, now: it would take only a few seconds to realize that in such a crowd, busy neighborhood one might have been seen coming back from the barn
Ok... Which is it? Testimony ONLY or opinion? Where did Lizzie testify... Well... I realized the crowd would have seen me.. so.. I umm.. changed my story...
It is the inconsitencies she resorts to that annoy me. I have accepted that she was riddled with insecurities and wished, at every opportunity to state her opinion of her social position.
Another thing... When she (or anyone else) make a great to-do about Lizzie not being hot, sweaty and having a creased dress... Some people do not sweat the same as others.
I seldom sweat-- I can be in a fur cape, complete with hat in a car with the heat set to 85 and the fan set to high and "feel" hot (uncomfortably hot even) -- but I do not sweat.. Period.
My friend Jane can garden all day-- be outside digging in the dirt and with a brush of her hands seem to repel dirt.. Some of us may not attract dirt!
Also-- That darn attic floor--- Someone tell me if I am wrong in this-- But wouldn't a hand, with a body temperature (and the possibility of the ever popular sweat) make a mark in a floor when a shoe (with no "body temp" that is not sweaty) would not make a mark??
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Allen
- Posts: 3409
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Me
I find it suspicious that if the loft was as dusty as it has been reported that Lizzie could have been up there and not have gotten dusty. I cannot buy that someone can repel dust/dirt completely.And if the floor alone was that dusty, I doubt everything else in that loft was what you would call spic and span.Everything was probably covered in dust, not just the floor.Shoes will leave prints in dust,I have my attic to thank for that observation 
.It's hardly ever used by us, and looked as if no one has set foot in it since Carter was president when we first moved in.We left prints everwhere.
.It's hardly ever used by us, and looked as if no one has set foot in it since Carter was president when we first moved in.We left prints everwhere."He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
I had to comment on Lincoln's description of patrolman Allen. He must have discovered the fountain of youth if Lincoln is correct.
Chapter 13 -
36. A crowd of neighbors had begun to gather as Uncle John came back. Small knots of people stood staring at the house and talking. But at that point his phenomenal gift of observation failed him utterly. He did not notice them. He did not notice the many male voices sounding from open windows as he walked beneath them. He did not notice the bulky Mr. Sawyer, still standing guard at the side door and waiting for young Officer Allen ...
Allen, if not the oldest, was certainly near the top in age. He was born in 1838 making him 54 at the time of the murders. Here's his photo from Porter:
A minor mistake perhaps but Lincoln's book is riddled with things like this. Diana commented on the vise. I, too, remember discussing it in the past. No where else but Lincoln is a vise in the barn mentioned. I believe she also mentions hammers in the barn. Again, they are also absent from any other account.
Chapter 13 -
36. A crowd of neighbors had begun to gather as Uncle John came back. Small knots of people stood staring at the house and talking. But at that point his phenomenal gift of observation failed him utterly. He did not notice them. He did not notice the many male voices sounding from open windows as he walked beneath them. He did not notice the bulky Mr. Sawyer, still standing guard at the side door and waiting for young Officer Allen ...
Allen, if not the oldest, was certainly near the top in age. He was born in 1838 making him 54 at the time of the murders. Here's his photo from Porter:
A minor mistake perhaps but Lincoln's book is riddled with things like this. Diana commented on the vise. I, too, remember discussing it in the past. No where else but Lincoln is a vise in the barn mentioned. I believe she also mentions hammers in the barn. Again, they are also absent from any other account.
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Harry
- Posts: 4061
- Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:28 pm
- Real Name: harry
- Location: South Carolina
I had to comment on Lincoln's description of patrolman Allen. He must have discovered the fountain of youth if Lincoln is correct.
Chapter 13 -
36. A crowd of neighbors had begun to gather as Uncle John came back. Small knots of people stood staring at the house and talking. But at that point his phenomenal gift of observation failed him utterly. He did not notice them. He did not notice the many male voices sounding from open windows as he walked beneath them. He did not notice the bulky Mr. Sawyer, still standing guard at the side door and waiting for young Officer Allen ...
Allen, if not the oldest, was certainly near the top in age. He was born in 1838 making him 54 at the time of the murders. Here's his photo from Porter:
A minor mistake perhaps but Lincoln's book is riddled with things like this. Diana commented on the vise. I, too, remember discussing it in the past. No where else but Lincoln is a vise in the barn mentioned. I believe she also mentions hammers in the barn. Again, they are also absent from any other account.
Chapter 13 -
36. A crowd of neighbors had begun to gather as Uncle John came back. Small knots of people stood staring at the house and talking. But at that point his phenomenal gift of observation failed him utterly. He did not notice them. He did not notice the many male voices sounding from open windows as he walked beneath them. He did not notice the bulky Mr. Sawyer, still standing guard at the side door and waiting for young Officer Allen ...
Allen, if not the oldest, was certainly near the top in age. He was born in 1838 making him 54 at the time of the murders. Here's his photo from Porter:
A minor mistake perhaps but Lincoln's book is riddled with things like this. Diana commented on the vise. I, too, remember discussing it in the past. No where else but Lincoln is a vise in the barn mentioned. I believe she also mentions hammers in the barn. Again, they are also absent from any other account.
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Gosh Harry, how'd that happen?
I'm glad you made that point- it was in my notes.
Allen, the testimony you cite is Churchill at the trial, and the dress she is being asked about at the end of your post is the one she saw Lizzie wearing- not the Bengaline silk. You may know this, but the editing on the testimony shows it differently, because the last dress referred to is the Bengaline.
Talking about the dress is always confusing...
Just to be clear, here is the full testimony:
Trial
Mrs. Churchill
Page 353 / i375
Q. Was there any white figure in the dress she had on that morning?
A. I don't remember. The ground work looked like blue and white mixed.
Q. Blended?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did the light blue compare with that piece of blotting paper (showing blotter) if you can tell?
A. The ground work that was mixed with the white was as light as that, I should judge.
Q. Do you recall whether it was fresh in color or had been faded somewhat?
A. I did not notice; it looked good to me.
Q. How long had she had that dress?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall her wearing it before at any time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long before had you seen her wear it?
A. I don't know.
Q. Can't tell?
A. No, sir.
Q. How frequently had you seen her wearing this same dress?
A. I cannot tell that.
I'm glad you made that point- it was in my notes.
Allen, the testimony you cite is Churchill at the trial, and the dress she is being asked about at the end of your post is the one she saw Lizzie wearing- not the Bengaline silk. You may know this, but the editing on the testimony shows it differently, because the last dress referred to is the Bengaline.
Talking about the dress is always confusing...
Just to be clear, here is the full testimony:
Trial
Mrs. Churchill
Page 353 / i375
Q. Was there any white figure in the dress she had on that morning?
A. I don't remember. The ground work looked like blue and white mixed.
Q. Blended?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did the light blue compare with that piece of blotting paper (showing blotter) if you can tell?
A. The ground work that was mixed with the white was as light as that, I should judge.
Q. Do you recall whether it was fresh in color or had been faded somewhat?
A. I did not notice; it looked good to me.
Q. How long had she had that dress?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know?
A. No, sir.
Q. Do you recall her wearing it before at any time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long before had you seen her wear it?
A. I don't know.
Q. Can't tell?
A. No, sir.
Q. How frequently had you seen her wearing this same dress?
A. I cannot tell that.
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Allen
- Posts: 3409
- Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:38 pm
- Gender: Female
- Real Name: Me
I read the entire testimony. The way I took it she was being asked to discribe the dress Lizzie wore that day, which she did.They showed her the dress Lizzie turned in for the trial,the bengaline silk, and asked her if it was the one she saw Lizzie wearing that day. She said no, that was not the dress. Then she described the dress she remembered Lizzie wearing that day, and said she had seen her wearing it before that day also.Thats how I understood the testimony.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
As to whether Lizzie got dirty in the barn:
She had to go upstairs in the relative dark
She ate pears which would have made her hands sticky and where are the pear carcasses?
She says she pulled some boards over off the bench area to look around.
Bridget doesn't think Lizzie had been in the barn for about 3 months, I think. Andrew seems to go there daily- but we don't know about the loft.
Since the horse was gone and the pigeons were gone, Lizzie had not much reason to go out there- Bridget says Lizzie didn't use the Privy out there either.
I think she would be sticky and dirty.
BUT there is a faucet in the barn so she could have washed but no one that we know of asked her...
She had to go upstairs in the relative dark
She ate pears which would have made her hands sticky and where are the pear carcasses?
She says she pulled some boards over off the bench area to look around.
Bridget doesn't think Lizzie had been in the barn for about 3 months, I think. Andrew seems to go there daily- but we don't know about the loft.
Since the horse was gone and the pigeons were gone, Lizzie had not much reason to go out there- Bridget says Lizzie didn't use the Privy out there either.
I think she would be sticky and dirty.
BUT there is a faucet in the barn so she could have washed but no one that we know of asked her...
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
I don't want to get behind so I will put my comments here from my notes and can revise later if you all want more source than provided now?
I think Lizzie had to keep changing her story until she ended up placing herself up in the barn loft because her first story might have been instinctively real (or not precisely why she heard a noise)- that she heard a noise and came inside and found Andrew. She realized that she couldn't hear a noise and not encounter the murderer, so she kept placing herself farther away and had to invent a reason to go to the loft- sinkers etc. I don't think there was a "ladder" to the loft- looks more like steep stairs in Rebello, pg. 43, the dismantling of the barn, side view.
All the dust-in-the-barn disputes seem unprovable as there were supposedly people in the loft before Medley. There seem to be more witnesses to several people going up there before Medley than just Medley saying he was the first. This is a big controversy and I don't think it can be resolved.
The point about whatever dress Lizzie wore would be soiled if she had been up there still holds true, in my opinion. However, there was a smooch of some oil or something at the pocket of the Bengaline skirt if I recall correctly. Who knows when that happened or what that smooch was.
The heard-a-noise statement which followed your Doherty citation (in the W.S.), Tracy, has the "heard no noise whatever" also coming from Harrington, pg. 5, where he is paraphrasing what Lizzie said. That was a good suggestion to look there.
I also think it makes sense that Lizzie did go outside and said she did in case she was seen earler for some reason- covering all her bases as Allen suggests. That's a good point.
I think it was asked if Lizzie came back from her expedition from the barn with anything proveable- she says she picked up a *chip.* Whatever that is...and I don't think anyone asked her to turn out her pockets or produce the *chip.*
Again, about the note: As Diana points out Lincoln says this land deal was well known downtown. Then I say, why did they need a note to get Abby out?
I don't know who this rear-kitchen-window watcher was looking at Morse eating pears? I don't think so. (Chapter 13- #36) Sawyer was asked if Morse was eating anything when he came up the steps to the house, at inquest (139/46) and he said not at the time he saw him.
Alice didn't take Lizzie upstairs. Lizzie went on her own.
Alice at inquest 148+:
A. I dont know whether I suggested, or who suggested, her going up stairs; but I know she went up stairs.
Q. Did you go up with her?
A. I dont remember that.
Q. Were you up stairs?
A. Yes Sir I was up there. I think if I did not go with her, I
must have been there very soon after.
Q. Did she go straight to her room, so far as you remember?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she take off any of her clothes?
A. I dont know what I was doing, but I came into the room, and found her fastening a pink wrapper on.
That implies that Alice didn't take Lizzie through the sitting room where her father lay dead.
Also, at this point, the Undertaker comment might as well be addressed. It changes Alice's inquest explanation somewhat to include her trial testimony:
383
Q. When she went up stairs did she go up alone or did anyone go with her?
A. I am not sure.
Q. Did you go with her?
A. I have always thought so; I am not sure.
Q. Were you in the room with her at any time upstairs before a change of dress?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anyone else there besides you and Miss Borden at that time.
A. No, sir.
Q. Now was there some conversation there in consequence of which you left the room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you state what that conversation was?
A. She said, "When it is necessary for an undertaker I want Winwood."
Q. What did you do?
A. I went down stairs and waited in the hall to see Dr. Bowen.
Q. And did you see him?
A. After waiting some time, I sent for him. He didn't come through there, and I sent for him and he came.
Q. After you had an interview with him where did you go?
A. Upstairs again.
Q. Did you go to her room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see when you went to the room?
A. She was coming out of Miss Emma's room, tying the ribbons of a wrapper.
--So it sounds as though somehow, Alice was not in the room when Lizzie changed- that Lizzie made sure she was alone. Or it seems that way,anyway. Alice may have gone up right after Lizzie, yet was sent back down by Lizzie on the undertaker errand, and then Lizzie changed her clothes while alone.
About the note or pieces of paper which Dr. Bowen burned: Harrington said he thought it said Emma on it- he wasn't positive- and we don't see Bowen doing this "hurriedly" as Lincoln says. (Chapter 15, #42).
Chapter 17 point #45- I hadn't posted all of V. Lincoln's addresses because Len gave me some I couldn't get. I wrote a personal mail to Tracy about this "Hill" business. It wasn't my personal opinion as to whether Lincoln lived on the Hill or not at her address in 1917-1919.
It's true there were a couple of heavy silk dresses not checked by police at least before Saturday - in the clothes press.
The slippers information comes from Lizzie:
inquest:
69(26)
A. He had laid down on the sitting room lounge, taken off his shoes, and put on his slippers, and taken off his coat and put on the reefer. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way.
Q. Where did you leave him?
A. On the sofa.
As to when Morse came according to Alice: Alice knew when he came because that was the first time she thought the word *Murder*. Up until then she thought the Borden's had been sick, as she had been told Wednesday night. She thought they were worse. That is something she does recall.
I printed out 11 pages and made these notes from all of your input. As I said, I didn't want to get behind!
I think it seems one of the bigger personal questions we are struggling with is whether Lizzie went to the barn or not. And the dust. I would offer the suggestion that other testimony besides Medley be checked about the state the loft was in when they each were there.
Whew!
Good job you guys!
Last edited by Kat on Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total
I think Lizzie had to keep changing her story until she ended up placing herself up in the barn loft because her first story might have been instinctively real (or not precisely why she heard a noise)- that she heard a noise and came inside and found Andrew. She realized that she couldn't hear a noise and not encounter the murderer, so she kept placing herself farther away and had to invent a reason to go to the loft- sinkers etc. I don't think there was a "ladder" to the loft- looks more like steep stairs in Rebello, pg. 43, the dismantling of the barn, side view.
All the dust-in-the-barn disputes seem unprovable as there were supposedly people in the loft before Medley. There seem to be more witnesses to several people going up there before Medley than just Medley saying he was the first. This is a big controversy and I don't think it can be resolved.
The point about whatever dress Lizzie wore would be soiled if she had been up there still holds true, in my opinion. However, there was a smooch of some oil or something at the pocket of the Bengaline skirt if I recall correctly. Who knows when that happened or what that smooch was.
The heard-a-noise statement which followed your Doherty citation (in the W.S.), Tracy, has the "heard no noise whatever" also coming from Harrington, pg. 5, where he is paraphrasing what Lizzie said. That was a good suggestion to look there.
I also think it makes sense that Lizzie did go outside and said she did in case she was seen earler for some reason- covering all her bases as Allen suggests. That's a good point.
I think it was asked if Lizzie came back from her expedition from the barn with anything proveable- she says she picked up a *chip.* Whatever that is...and I don't think anyone asked her to turn out her pockets or produce the *chip.*
Again, about the note: As Diana points out Lincoln says this land deal was well known downtown. Then I say, why did they need a note to get Abby out?
I don't know who this rear-kitchen-window watcher was looking at Morse eating pears? I don't think so. (Chapter 13- #36) Sawyer was asked if Morse was eating anything when he came up the steps to the house, at inquest (139/46) and he said not at the time he saw him.
Alice didn't take Lizzie upstairs. Lizzie went on her own.
Alice at inquest 148+:
A. I dont know whether I suggested, or who suggested, her going up stairs; but I know she went up stairs.
Q. Did you go up with her?
A. I dont remember that.
Q. Were you up stairs?
A. Yes Sir I was up there. I think if I did not go with her, I
must have been there very soon after.
Q. Did she go straight to her room, so far as you remember?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she take off any of her clothes?
A. I dont know what I was doing, but I came into the room, and found her fastening a pink wrapper on.
That implies that Alice didn't take Lizzie through the sitting room where her father lay dead.
Also, at this point, the Undertaker comment might as well be addressed. It changes Alice's inquest explanation somewhat to include her trial testimony:
383
Q. When she went up stairs did she go up alone or did anyone go with her?
A. I am not sure.
Q. Did you go with her?
A. I have always thought so; I am not sure.
Q. Were you in the room with her at any time upstairs before a change of dress?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anyone else there besides you and Miss Borden at that time.
A. No, sir.
Q. Now was there some conversation there in consequence of which you left the room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you state what that conversation was?
A. She said, "When it is necessary for an undertaker I want Winwood."
Q. What did you do?
A. I went down stairs and waited in the hall to see Dr. Bowen.
Q. And did you see him?
A. After waiting some time, I sent for him. He didn't come through there, and I sent for him and he came.
Q. After you had an interview with him where did you go?
A. Upstairs again.
Q. Did you go to her room?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you see when you went to the room?
A. She was coming out of Miss Emma's room, tying the ribbons of a wrapper.
--So it sounds as though somehow, Alice was not in the room when Lizzie changed- that Lizzie made sure she was alone. Or it seems that way,anyway. Alice may have gone up right after Lizzie, yet was sent back down by Lizzie on the undertaker errand, and then Lizzie changed her clothes while alone.
About the note or pieces of paper which Dr. Bowen burned: Harrington said he thought it said Emma on it- he wasn't positive- and we don't see Bowen doing this "hurriedly" as Lincoln says. (Chapter 15, #42).
Chapter 17 point #45- I hadn't posted all of V. Lincoln's addresses because Len gave me some I couldn't get. I wrote a personal mail to Tracy about this "Hill" business. It wasn't my personal opinion as to whether Lincoln lived on the Hill or not at her address in 1917-1919.
It's true there were a couple of heavy silk dresses not checked by police at least before Saturday - in the clothes press.
The slippers information comes from Lizzie:
inquest:
69(26)
A. He had laid down on the sitting room lounge, taken off his shoes, and put on his slippers, and taken off his coat and put on the reefer. I asked him if he wanted the window left that way.
Q. Where did you leave him?
A. On the sofa.
As to when Morse came according to Alice: Alice knew when he came because that was the first time she thought the word *Murder*. Up until then she thought the Borden's had been sick, as she had been told Wednesday night. She thought they were worse. That is something she does recall.
I printed out 11 pages and made these notes from all of your input. As I said, I didn't want to get behind!
I think it seems one of the bigger personal questions we are struggling with is whether Lizzie went to the barn or not. And the dust. I would offer the suggestion that other testimony besides Medley be checked about the state the loft was in when they each were there.
Whew!
Good job you guys!
Last edited by Kat on Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Harry
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The "chip" that Lizzie says she found in the loft has always been a mystery. She was never questioned on it closely and never asked what became of it.
I skipped a little ahead in Lincoln and found this on page 190, book #3, chapter 23:
" ... Did she find any lead, did she bring any back? No, she brought back nothing but a chip of wood that she picked up off the floor. (Details, those haunting, overmastering details! If a chip had chanced to fall from a broken hatchet-handle to the kitchen floor, who would have noticed it at such a time?) ..."
When did the chip became wood, as Lizzie, the source of the info, simply says "chip"? Why would she bring back a wood chip? I'm afraid wood doesn't make a very good sinker.
I skipped a little ahead in Lincoln and found this on page 190, book #3, chapter 23:
" ... Did she find any lead, did she bring any back? No, she brought back nothing but a chip of wood that she picked up off the floor. (Details, those haunting, overmastering details! If a chip had chanced to fall from a broken hatchet-handle to the kitchen floor, who would have noticed it at such a time?) ..."
When did the chip became wood, as Lizzie, the source of the info, simply says "chip"? Why would she bring back a wood chip? I'm afraid wood doesn't make a very good sinker.
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theebmonique
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Whew...Diana was right...Lincolnisms can be infectious.
Lincoln stated on page 116, that Alice had taken Lizzie upstairs, followed by Alice sending Bridget off to get Dr. Bowen. Then on pg. 117, she says 'Dr. Bowen came came back'...that she led him upstairs...that Lizzie was was just coming out of 'Emma's little room', having changed into the pink wrapper. Her Inquest testimony, which undoubtedly is more accurate, states it a bit differently though. Thanks Kat for helping to make this more clear to me.
Tracy...
Lincoln stated on page 116, that Alice had taken Lizzie upstairs, followed by Alice sending Bridget off to get Dr. Bowen. Then on pg. 117, she says 'Dr. Bowen came came back'...that she led him upstairs...that Lizzie was was just coming out of 'Emma's little room', having changed into the pink wrapper. Her Inquest testimony, which undoubtedly is more accurate, states it a bit differently though. Thanks Kat for helping to make this more clear to me.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Haulover
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thanks, harry, for bringing up that CHIP.
from Lizzie's Inquest:
Q. Did you bring any sinker back from the barn?
A. Nothing but a piece of a chip I picked up on the floor.
[At this point, Knowlton switches]
Q. Where was that box you say was up stairs, containing lead?
______________________
RE Lincoln and the chip: this is one of several instances where she uses imagination to fill in a factual gap. you can believe her chip theory only if you believe her hatchet theory -- and so on.
______________________
back to the fact of the chip in Lizzie's testimony: not only does the word, "chip" come into play out of the blue, but so does the word "floor."
from Lizzie's Inquest:
Q. Did you bring any sinker back from the barn?
A. Nothing but a piece of a chip I picked up on the floor.
[At this point, Knowlton switches]
Q. Where was that box you say was up stairs, containing lead?
______________________
RE Lincoln and the chip: this is one of several instances where she uses imagination to fill in a factual gap. you can believe her chip theory only if you believe her hatchet theory -- and so on.
______________________
back to the fact of the chip in Lizzie's testimony: not only does the word, "chip" come into play out of the blue, but so does the word "floor."
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terrie
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hello all --- have been distracted this week and have lost my notes on VL Section 2 -- however, I doubt that I had anything not covered here.
Maybe LB wanted a chip of wood to fill in a hole in the screen door...lol.
I, too, see no way she could have been in the loft and not disturbed the dust there...or how she could have been wearing an uncharacteristically hot dress yet that not be noted by the other women present.
By the way, Tracy --- thanks for being our fearless leader -- you are doing a great job
Maybe LB wanted a chip of wood to fill in a hole in the screen door...lol.
I, too, see no way she could have been in the loft and not disturbed the dust there...or how she could have been wearing an uncharacteristically hot dress yet that not be noted by the other women present.
By the way, Tracy --- thanks for being our fearless leader -- you are doing a great job
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Harry
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Good point Eugene, I hadn't noticed the floor not being mentioned by Lizzie.Haulover @ Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:34 am wrote: RE Lincoln and the chip: this is one of several instances where she uses imagination to fill in a factual gap. you can believe her chip theory only if you believe her hatchet theory -- and so on.
______________________
back to the fact of the chip in Lizzie's testimony: not only does the word, "chip" come into play out of the blue, but so does the word "floor."
Knowlton, again, as in so many instances, misses the ONLY chance he will ever get to pin Lizzie down. Certainly he knew that she would "lawyer up" after the Inquest.
The chip is a piece of physical evidence. It could actually work in her favor if it was able to be traced to some object in the barn loft.
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Haulover
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to clarify, lizzie does refer both to "chip" and floor":
Q. Did you bring any sinker back from the barn?
A. Nothing but a piece of a chip I picked up on the floor.
both words are puzzling. look at the question. why won't another, "No, sir" do?
further, it is not merely a "chip" but a "piece of a chip".
VL has her interpretation of what this means, but i wonder what else is possible?
is she reverting to a "piece of lead to fix her screen" with this answer? that is, she is moving away from the sinkers and she is about to try out a "fixing my screen story" to add to the pears or whatnot -- i'm guessing what we would have if knowlton had pressed her for it at this point. what i'm saying is that he might have pressured her into admitting that she told people she had been looking for lead for a screen in the same way he pressured her into admitting to him her talk about abby receiving a note. which would put the note and the lead-for-screen in the same category -- called, "things lizzie does not want to talk about NOW" -- as opposed to when the murders were discovered.
one of the oddest things about the lead-to-sinkers story -- is that it would have been more believable for lizzie to go out to the barn for a piece of lead to fix a screen.
Q. Did you bring any sinker back from the barn?
A. Nothing but a piece of a chip I picked up on the floor.
both words are puzzling. look at the question. why won't another, "No, sir" do?
further, it is not merely a "chip" but a "piece of a chip".
VL has her interpretation of what this means, but i wonder what else is possible?
is she reverting to a "piece of lead to fix her screen" with this answer? that is, she is moving away from the sinkers and she is about to try out a "fixing my screen story" to add to the pears or whatnot -- i'm guessing what we would have if knowlton had pressed her for it at this point. what i'm saying is that he might have pressured her into admitting that she told people she had been looking for lead for a screen in the same way he pressured her into admitting to him her talk about abby receiving a note. which would put the note and the lead-for-screen in the same category -- called, "things lizzie does not want to talk about NOW" -- as opposed to when the murders were discovered.
one of the oddest things about the lead-to-sinkers story -- is that it would have been more believable for lizzie to go out to the barn for a piece of lead to fix a screen.
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theebmonique
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