I need to do a bit of re-reading then finish doing my write-up for Book 3. I am glad this one was a short one. How is everyone else doing ?
Tracy...
BORDEN BOOK CLUB (Lincoln / Book 3)
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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theebmonique
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BORDEN BOOK CLUB (Lincoln / Book 3)
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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theebmonique
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Yes Kat...LOL...I do.
OK here it is...I am sure I have made some mistakes, but I tried to 'cite' some things from places like Rebello...and such. Tell me what you think...
Tracy...
OK here it is...I am sure I have made some mistakes, but I tried to 'cite' some things from places like Rebello...and such. Tell me what you think...
Tracy...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Harry
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As usual, good job Tracy!
Re: 53. "(Pg. 170) At the preliminary investigation old Judge Blaisdell found her probably guilty, and wept pronouncing the words." - I have not yet been able to find anything to substantiate the Blaisdell wept. Is there anything ? Is it right under my nose ?
This is from the Evening Standard, Sept. 2, 1893, immediately after Knowlton's closing Preliminary hearing statement:
"Attention was almost immediately transferred to Judge Blaisdell, who needed no lapse of time to prepare for his ordeal. In almost the first sentence he revealed what his decision would be.
Perhaps there was never a more effective scene in any court-room than the closing one yesterday. Those who were present will never forget it. Judge Blaisdell's voice was low and tremulous. The profound sincerity of his grief was not to be questioned. Before those awful words "probably guilty," he paused and turned away, unable to utter them for a time. Even the clerk of the court, whose calmness is proverbial and who never was known to have been visibly touched before, nearly broke down. Men and women alike could not control their tears at the sorrowful spectacle almost too tragic to seem real.
But the prisoner still guided by a wonderful will was not apparently moved by the feelings which she caused in others. Her calmness for the first time showed a faint touch of despair. At the sound of her name she leaned forward, hesitating what to do, but as her lawyer assured her with a touch at her elbow that she should stand she rose and did not waver once."
No tears there, but the NY Times differs:
"The New York Times, Friday, September 2, 1892 - Page 3
PROBABLE GUILT JUDGED
LIZZIE BORDEN HELD FOR HER
PARENT'S MURDER.
Remarkable Scenes in the Fall River
Court Room -- The Prisoner Calm
Before a Weeping Judge -- Applause
For Her Counsel's Argument.
Fall River, Mass., Sep. 1, -- With half the people in the court in tears and with the faces of the others white with nervous excitement, Lizzie Borden stood in the Second District Court room to-day and listened to her father's old friend as, in his judicial capacity, he adjudged her probably guilty of the brutal murder of her parents. Calm and collected, as though the matter was of the most uninteresting character to her, she faced the bar, while the presiding Justice was forced to pause in his brief remarks to wipe away his tears."
So like everything else in the Borden case you have a choice. As a writer who wouldn't want to have the judge blubbering away?
Re: 53. "(Pg. 170) At the preliminary investigation old Judge Blaisdell found her probably guilty, and wept pronouncing the words." - I have not yet been able to find anything to substantiate the Blaisdell wept. Is there anything ? Is it right under my nose ?
This is from the Evening Standard, Sept. 2, 1893, immediately after Knowlton's closing Preliminary hearing statement:
"Attention was almost immediately transferred to Judge Blaisdell, who needed no lapse of time to prepare for his ordeal. In almost the first sentence he revealed what his decision would be.
Perhaps there was never a more effective scene in any court-room than the closing one yesterday. Those who were present will never forget it. Judge Blaisdell's voice was low and tremulous. The profound sincerity of his grief was not to be questioned. Before those awful words "probably guilty," he paused and turned away, unable to utter them for a time. Even the clerk of the court, whose calmness is proverbial and who never was known to have been visibly touched before, nearly broke down. Men and women alike could not control their tears at the sorrowful spectacle almost too tragic to seem real.
But the prisoner still guided by a wonderful will was not apparently moved by the feelings which she caused in others. Her calmness for the first time showed a faint touch of despair. At the sound of her name she leaned forward, hesitating what to do, but as her lawyer assured her with a touch at her elbow that she should stand she rose and did not waver once."
No tears there, but the NY Times differs:
"The New York Times, Friday, September 2, 1892 - Page 3
PROBABLE GUILT JUDGED
LIZZIE BORDEN HELD FOR HER
PARENT'S MURDER.
Remarkable Scenes in the Fall River
Court Room -- The Prisoner Calm
Before a Weeping Judge -- Applause
For Her Counsel's Argument.
Fall River, Mass., Sep. 1, -- With half the people in the court in tears and with the faces of the others white with nervous excitement, Lizzie Borden stood in the Second District Court room to-day and listened to her father's old friend as, in his judicial capacity, he adjudged her probably guilty of the brutal murder of her parents. Calm and collected, as though the matter was of the most uninteresting character to her, she faced the bar, while the presiding Justice was forced to pause in his brief remarks to wipe away his tears."
So like everything else in the Borden case you have a choice. As a writer who wouldn't want to have the judge blubbering away?
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Kat
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I'm just starting out at the first notations, Tracy!
I'm glad Harry handled the *Blaisedell wept* question!
I'm beginning to look forward to your project!
From Lincoln via Tracy:
"Chapter 21 -
50. (Pg. 168) 'All were questioned briefly except for Bridget and Lizzie. Bridget got the works. She was called as first witness and examined from early morning until four in the afternoon, almost twice as long as any other witness was questioned at a stretch. On the final day she was recalled for the better part of the morning and until three, and hour and a half longer than Lizzie’s longest questioning. Knowlton was never satisfied that she was not involved.' "
Inquest
Tuesday, August 9, 1892:
9:30
Doherty gets Bridget and brings to Second District Court in F.R. Police Station (Evening Standard, Wed., Aug. 10, pg.2, & Witness Statements, 13)
“Inquest opened at 10 a.m.” (E.S 2.)
12:30 p.m.
“Hearing adjourned for dinner”. (E.S. 3., & Porter, 55)
--So far Bridget has been grilled from 10 am to 12:30. It was pointed out that Blaisdell liked to stop for lunch promptly at 12 but that he decided to go overtime to 12:30 in order to "to get as far as possible with the Sullivan woman’s testimony.”
At 1:40 Hilliard and Harrington went to get Lizzie with a summons. I don't know if they were still on lunch break and/or if the questioning would resume without Hilliard there- so this may have been a continual break-time for Bridget. Lizzie was brought back to the courtroom at 2 pm and brought inside with Mrs, Brigham, and the doors were locked behind them (E.S., Porter as above and W.S.13)
This sounds like Lizzie's turn now, starting at 2.
Therefore it seems reasonable to say that Bridget was done the first day by 12:30, lunchtime.
The court had a recess soon after 2, for maybe a bit over an hour, and then came back and they kept at it until 6 pm the first day, but Bridget left at 5 pm. (E.S. 2, Porter 56).
Bridget probably was released around lunch but made to wait in the building until 5. So she would have been on the premises from 10 until 5, but if one reads Porter and the papers and the Witness Statements, which I believe Lincoln had access to, she would know that Bridget wasn't questioned continuously all day. The judge liked his lunch!
I created an Inquest timeline but have not ever published it. These are snippets from it.
It seems like Lizzie might have been questioned the first day for about a combined total of about 3 hours, with the break.
That beats Bridget's 2 and a half hours. We can add maybe a half hour on the last day to Bridget so her combined total for the whole inquest might be 3 hours.
Lizzie was questioned for about an hour on Wednesday, and according to Porter, Bridget came back Thursday about 3:45 and Lizzie came between 3 and 4:30 but that court adjourned between 5 and 6 on the last day, so Bridget's time being questioned Thursday, the last day, might be around 20 minutes to a half hour in order to get Lizzie back in court by 4:30. Bridget left the building possibly by 5.
I'm glad Harry handled the *Blaisedell wept* question!
I'm beginning to look forward to your project!
From Lincoln via Tracy:
"Chapter 21 -
50. (Pg. 168) 'All were questioned briefly except for Bridget and Lizzie. Bridget got the works. She was called as first witness and examined from early morning until four in the afternoon, almost twice as long as any other witness was questioned at a stretch. On the final day she was recalled for the better part of the morning and until three, and hour and a half longer than Lizzie’s longest questioning. Knowlton was never satisfied that she was not involved.' "
Inquest
Tuesday, August 9, 1892:
9:30
Doherty gets Bridget and brings to Second District Court in F.R. Police Station (Evening Standard, Wed., Aug. 10, pg.2, & Witness Statements, 13)
“Inquest opened at 10 a.m.” (E.S 2.)
12:30 p.m.
“Hearing adjourned for dinner”. (E.S. 3., & Porter, 55)
--So far Bridget has been grilled from 10 am to 12:30. It was pointed out that Blaisdell liked to stop for lunch promptly at 12 but that he decided to go overtime to 12:30 in order to "to get as far as possible with the Sullivan woman’s testimony.”
At 1:40 Hilliard and Harrington went to get Lizzie with a summons. I don't know if they were still on lunch break and/or if the questioning would resume without Hilliard there- so this may have been a continual break-time for Bridget. Lizzie was brought back to the courtroom at 2 pm and brought inside with Mrs, Brigham, and the doors were locked behind them (E.S., Porter as above and W.S.13)
This sounds like Lizzie's turn now, starting at 2.
Therefore it seems reasonable to say that Bridget was done the first day by 12:30, lunchtime.
The court had a recess soon after 2, for maybe a bit over an hour, and then came back and they kept at it until 6 pm the first day, but Bridget left at 5 pm. (E.S. 2, Porter 56).
Bridget probably was released around lunch but made to wait in the building until 5. So she would have been on the premises from 10 until 5, but if one reads Porter and the papers and the Witness Statements, which I believe Lincoln had access to, she would know that Bridget wasn't questioned continuously all day. The judge liked his lunch!
I created an Inquest timeline but have not ever published it. These are snippets from it.
It seems like Lizzie might have been questioned the first day for about a combined total of about 3 hours, with the break.
That beats Bridget's 2 and a half hours. We can add maybe a half hour on the last day to Bridget so her combined total for the whole inquest might be 3 hours.
Lizzie was questioned for about an hour on Wednesday, and according to Porter, Bridget came back Thursday about 3:45 and Lizzie came between 3 and 4:30 but that court adjourned between 5 and 6 on the last day, so Bridget's time being questioned Thursday, the last day, might be around 20 minutes to a half hour in order to get Lizzie back in court by 4:30. Bridget left the building possibly by 5.
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theebmonique
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Yes Harry, thanks for taking care of the Blaisdell question. I should have more thorughly gone through the New Bedford Evening Standard disk. And of course I should know better than to trust Lincoln to cite a source, on a regular basis anyway.
Kat, Thank you for the cites from the New Bedford Evening Standard and Porter. I will download Porter tomorrow after school.
I am still amazed ar Bridget's fortitude. It's no wonder she was able survive those years in rugged Montana.
Tracy...
Kat, Thank you for the cites from the New Bedford Evening Standard and Porter. I will download Porter tomorrow after school.
I am still amazed ar Bridget's fortitude. It's no wonder she was able survive those years in rugged Montana.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Allen
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(Pg. 176-177) It was something to think about that Lizzie had mentioned neither her parents’ illness nor the anonymous poison threat, which Dr. Bowen had reported. One would think that a girl unjustly suspected would want that anonymous threat remembered - and a murder threat just proceeding a murder is a natural thing to mention at an inquest. Maybe I have been reading to much testimony in one siting, but was Lizzie even specifically asked so that she could mention this ?
Well I have always found this odd myself. I think she would have mentioned it. The only reason I think she did not mention it is because she herself had been trying to buy poison. This is just my opinion and I really am not hoping to open that whole "did she or didn't she try to buy poison" can of worms in this thread. But she was asked some questions while not specifically refering to this, did open to the door to her talking about it.
Questions like:
Q. Do you know of anybody that your father was on bad terms with?
Q..Beside that do you know of anybody that your father had bad feelings toward, or who had bad feelings toward your father?
Q .Anybody else that was on bad terms with your father, or that your father was on bad terms with?
I would think that someone threatening to poison him could be considered to be on bad terms with him. Even if she did not know who it was.I don't have the page numbers for these questions, since I have been so busy I found it easier to use this site because I can copy and paste the testimony directly from it which saves me a little work.
http://www.frpd.org/lizzie/part1.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
57. (Pg. 181) And when Knowlton reminded her of the note again, she so belatedly thought to explain Abby’s old white calico in which she died.“I said to her, ‘Won’t you change your dress before you go out ?’ She said, ‘No, this one is good enough.’”To one who grew up in provincial mill-town society, this touch is the clumsiest of all Lizzie’s lies The thing is anthropologically impossible. Even, for a social equal, Abby would have changed to go out; but if - as I have seen it suggested - poor lonely Abby, so ungiven to corporal works of mercy, had been called to a humbler bedside, she would have found it flatly unthinkable that she go out dressed beneath her station and “not looking right.” And nobody in that whole taboo-ridden society could have known it better than Lizzie Andrew Borden. Has anyone besides Lincoln suggested that Abby was “poor, lonely (and fat) Abby” ? As much as is stated that Lizzie did not care much for Abby, that doesn’t mean that Abby wasn’t a kind enough person to dropped what she was doing to help a sick friend...or to go to the bank to meet her husband, even if it meant not changing her clothes. If she was really going to the bank, maybe she thought that the “ not changing clothes” thing would keep Lizzie off the trial even more ?
Here I'm inclined to believe Lincoln. I know how you all are about agreeing with Lincoln
, but on this point I do. I do think this is how things worked at the time when you were female from most of the reading I have done about victorian etiquette and customs. And the best example to support this is Alice Russell took the time to change her clothes before rushing to Lizzie's side.
page 380/i402
Q. Upon the next morning, August 4th, did you receive a visit from Bridget Sullivan?
A. Yes, sir.
-----------------
also page 380/i402
Q. What were you doing when she came?
A. I was at my work.
Q.In consequence of anything that she said did you go anywhere?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Where did you go?
A.I went upstairs.
Q.And what did you do upstairs?
A.Changed my dress.
Q. What did you do then?
A.I went over to Mr. Borden's.
Q.Speak up please.
A. I went over to the Borden house.
Why is it that Lincoln seems compelled to trash the idea of anyone who supports Lizzie ? I guess it’s not even so much that she disagrees, but that she does it with such smugness. Does she even consider that Lizzie may have been affected by the sedative that Dr. Bowen had given her ? I for awhile believed that the sedatives might have been the cause of Lizzie's faultering memory. But I realize she began to contradict herself before her first dose of Bromo-Caffeine was even administered. She had already began to contradict herself when it came to where she had been when Andrew was murdered. This makes that theory lose its credibility to me.
(Pg. 190) Did she find any lead, did she bring any back ? No, she brought back nothing but a chip of wood that she picked up off the floor. Remind me what this chip of wood has to do with anything ? Is it connected to anything ?
I think it has been stated before that we are not even sure what the chip was, whether or not it was made of wood or not. But it had to have meant something to Lizzie I think , or why did she even mention having picked it up in the first place? What could it possibly have offered to her testimony to mention it?
You raised some very good questions I think. I have a question I have wondered about in this part of the book also.
(Page 144) He must have feared that his outgoing mail would be of interest to the police, and it if were discovered to consist of bargainings over the price of a certain silence, how would that look? First of all, didn't the police know who the letter he sent was addressed to? How secret could this letter have been? While I think the letter must have had some importance for him to have gone out like he did, I am not quite sure I believe it contained any "bargainings over the price of a certain silence".
Well I have always found this odd myself. I think she would have mentioned it. The only reason I think she did not mention it is because she herself had been trying to buy poison. This is just my opinion and I really am not hoping to open that whole "did she or didn't she try to buy poison" can of worms in this thread. But she was asked some questions while not specifically refering to this, did open to the door to her talking about it.
Questions like:
Q. Do you know of anybody that your father was on bad terms with?
Q..Beside that do you know of anybody that your father had bad feelings toward, or who had bad feelings toward your father?
Q .Anybody else that was on bad terms with your father, or that your father was on bad terms with?
I would think that someone threatening to poison him could be considered to be on bad terms with him. Even if she did not know who it was.I don't have the page numbers for these questions, since I have been so busy I found it easier to use this site because I can copy and paste the testimony directly from it which saves me a little work.
http://www.frpd.org/lizzie/part1.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
57. (Pg. 181) And when Knowlton reminded her of the note again, she so belatedly thought to explain Abby’s old white calico in which she died.“I said to her, ‘Won’t you change your dress before you go out ?’ She said, ‘No, this one is good enough.’”To one who grew up in provincial mill-town society, this touch is the clumsiest of all Lizzie’s lies The thing is anthropologically impossible. Even, for a social equal, Abby would have changed to go out; but if - as I have seen it suggested - poor lonely Abby, so ungiven to corporal works of mercy, had been called to a humbler bedside, she would have found it flatly unthinkable that she go out dressed beneath her station and “not looking right.” And nobody in that whole taboo-ridden society could have known it better than Lizzie Andrew Borden. Has anyone besides Lincoln suggested that Abby was “poor, lonely (and fat) Abby” ? As much as is stated that Lizzie did not care much for Abby, that doesn’t mean that Abby wasn’t a kind enough person to dropped what she was doing to help a sick friend...or to go to the bank to meet her husband, even if it meant not changing her clothes. If she was really going to the bank, maybe she thought that the “ not changing clothes” thing would keep Lizzie off the trial even more ?
Here I'm inclined to believe Lincoln. I know how you all are about agreeing with Lincoln
, but on this point I do. I do think this is how things worked at the time when you were female from most of the reading I have done about victorian etiquette and customs. And the best example to support this is Alice Russell took the time to change her clothes before rushing to Lizzie's side.page 380/i402
Q. Upon the next morning, August 4th, did you receive a visit from Bridget Sullivan?
A. Yes, sir.
-----------------
also page 380/i402
Q. What were you doing when she came?
A. I was at my work.
Q.In consequence of anything that she said did you go anywhere?
A.Yes, sir.
Q.Where did you go?
A.I went upstairs.
Q.And what did you do upstairs?
A.Changed my dress.
Q. What did you do then?
A.I went over to Mr. Borden's.
Q.Speak up please.
A. I went over to the Borden house.
Why is it that Lincoln seems compelled to trash the idea of anyone who supports Lizzie ? I guess it’s not even so much that she disagrees, but that she does it with such smugness. Does she even consider that Lizzie may have been affected by the sedative that Dr. Bowen had given her ? I for awhile believed that the sedatives might have been the cause of Lizzie's faultering memory. But I realize she began to contradict herself before her first dose of Bromo-Caffeine was even administered. She had already began to contradict herself when it came to where she had been when Andrew was murdered. This makes that theory lose its credibility to me.
(Pg. 190) Did she find any lead, did she bring any back ? No, she brought back nothing but a chip of wood that she picked up off the floor. Remind me what this chip of wood has to do with anything ? Is it connected to anything ?
I think it has been stated before that we are not even sure what the chip was, whether or not it was made of wood or not. But it had to have meant something to Lizzie I think , or why did she even mention having picked it up in the first place? What could it possibly have offered to her testimony to mention it?
You raised some very good questions I think. I have a question I have wondered about in this part of the book also.
(Page 144) He must have feared that his outgoing mail would be of interest to the police, and it if were discovered to consist of bargainings over the price of a certain silence, how would that look? First of all, didn't the police know who the letter he sent was addressed to? How secret could this letter have been? While I think the letter must have had some importance for him to have gone out like he did, I am not quite sure I believe it contained any "bargainings over the price of a certain silence".
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Allen
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Nancie mentioned she thought it would be a good idea to read some of Lincoln's other books. I also thought this was a good idea. I do not know when I am ever going to have the time to read it, but I borrowed Out From Eden. I have not opened it yet, but I am kind of looking forward to starting it. Has anyone else found any of her books?
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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theebmonique
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I think that if someone wants to read Lincoln's other books they should do that. Reading is a good thing. I am thinking that for the focus of this book club though, our books should be about this case. I apologize if I am not understanding your idea/suggestion.
Tracy...
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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theebmonique
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Audrey
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Kat
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Allen, can I ask how you got to that Lizzie link From the FRPD?
I have recently been searching over there (for the Gay's Studio alleged portrait, which I knew used to be there and now I find) and didn't find this stuff. They remodeled the site and I can't find anything hardly there anymore.
Can you explain what you did, where you clicked etc?
Thanks!
I have recently been searching over there (for the Gay's Studio alleged portrait, which I knew used to be there and now I find) and didn't find this stuff. They remodeled the site and I can't find anything hardly there anymore.
Can you explain what you did, where you clicked etc?
Thanks!
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Kat
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I think they were going to check what else Lincoln wrote to compare with her style of writing in this book, as a curiosity. Maybe someone will do that, but it's not a part of this dissection.theebmonique @ Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:24 pm wrote:I think that if someone wants to read Lincoln's other books they should do that. Reading is a good thing. I am thinking that for the focus of this book club though, our books should be about this case. I apologize if I am not understanding your idea/suggestion.
Tracy...
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Allen
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Kat,
I was looking for a copy of the testimony that I could copy and paste from, to make things a little easier for me so I would not have to type it out by hand. All I did was go to Yahoo search and type in "Lizzie Borden inquest testimony". It was the first link that showed up.Yes that is my intention, to read this book and compare the style with A Private Disgrace. I did not mean to imply I was going to discuss it in this thread, I was simply wondering if anyone else had decided to read one of her other books.
I was looking for a copy of the testimony that I could copy and paste from, to make things a little easier for me so I would not have to type it out by hand. All I did was go to Yahoo search and type in "Lizzie Borden inquest testimony". It was the first link that showed up.Yes that is my intention, to read this book and compare the style with A Private Disgrace. I did not mean to imply I was going to discuss it in this thread, I was simply wondering if anyone else had decided to read one of her other books.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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theebmonique
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I honestly meant that maybe a second book club for other books whether to compare them to Lizzie books or just to read and discuss was a really good idea. It seems like that would give forum members even more options than we already have. Anyone could be part of one...or the other...or both...or neither. I hope I am not coming across as negative. I REALLY like the idea of having two. The more...the merrier !
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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Kat
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I'm surprised you got a response with one. I doubt this Forum could support 2, but someone could prove me wrong...Anyway, I didn't get that impression that a teacher wouldn't welcome a second book club! 
Allen/Melissa: So you can't tell me how to get to that site FROm the Police Department? I wonder if they know there's not a link- at least that I can find. There used to be all this stuff on there but not that I can currently find. Hmmm.
Can someone go to the FRPD site and try to get to this Lizzie stuff?
(Sorry to go off topic- but I'm thankful for Allen/Melissa's link!)
Allen/Melissa: So you can't tell me how to get to that site FROm the Police Department? I wonder if they know there's not a link- at least that I can find. There used to be all this stuff on there but not that I can currently find. Hmmm.
Can someone go to the FRPD site and try to get to this Lizzie stuff?
(Sorry to go off topic- but I'm thankful for Allen/Melissa's link!)
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Audrey
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http://www.globalpdf.com/pdf2word/index.htmlAllen @ Tue Jan 25, 2005 8:47 pm wrote:Kat,
I was looking for a copy of the testimony that I could copy and paste from, to make things a little easier for me so I would not have to type it out by hand. All I did was go to Yahoo search and type in "Lizzie Borden inquest testimony". It was the first link that showed up.Yes that is my intention, to read this book and compare the style with A Private Disgrace. I did not mean to imply I was going to discuss it in this thread, I was simply wondering if anyone else had decided to read one of her other books.
I bought this program which works wonderfully to turn PDF into word. You can then copy and paste it...
Just be sure to adhere to copyright laws!
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doug65oh
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http://www.frpd.org/lizzie/index.htm
There's the best place to start. How you get there from the front door is the big mystery at this point from the looks of things...possibly bigger than "Who Killed the Bordens?"
They have what look to be some very interesting old photos posted on that site - posted since I had last been there - including one of the first uniformed patrolman for the city of Fall River.
What they've done apparently (it makes no sense) is eliminated the "site map" link that used to be there, on the main page as I recall. Hmm... says under "Contact Us" that site design/content may be reached at
IITU@frpd.org ... Email 'em perhaps, ask where they hid the site map??
The answer to the initial question would seem for the moment to be "You can't get there from here!!" - the homepage, that is!!
There's the best place to start. How you get there from the front door is the big mystery at this point from the looks of things...possibly bigger than "Who Killed the Bordens?"
They have what look to be some very interesting old photos posted on that site - posted since I had last been there - including one of the first uniformed patrolman for the city of Fall River.
What they've done apparently (it makes no sense) is eliminated the "site map" link that used to be there, on the main page as I recall. Hmm... says under "Contact Us" that site design/content may be reached at
IITU@frpd.org ... Email 'em perhaps, ask where they hid the site map??
The answer to the initial question would seem for the moment to be "You can't get there from here!!" - the homepage, that is!!
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theebmonique
- Posts: 2771
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- Real Name: Tracy Townsend
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A = FRPD website (new/today)
B = FRPD/ with Lizzie links website (the old 'good' one)
You can get from B to A, but not from A to B.
Melissa, how did you find "B" ?
Thanks for emailing them Doug ! I hope they put the link back.
So...what are some of the rest of you thinking about Book 3 ?
Tracy...
B = FRPD/ with Lizzie links website (the old 'good' one)
You can get from B to A, but not from A to B.
Melissa, how did you find "B" ?
Thanks for emailing them Doug ! I hope they put the link back.
So...what are some of the rest of you thinking about Book 3 ?
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.
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theebmonique
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
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- Location: Central Florida
56. (Pg. 176-177) It was something to think about that Lizzie had mentioned neither her parents’ illness nor the anonymous poison threat, which Dr. Bowen had reported. One would think that a girl unjustly suspected would want that anonymous threat remembered - and a murder threat just proceeding a murder is a natural thing to mention at an inquest.-Lincoln
Maybe I have been reading to much testimony in one siting, but was Lizzie even specifically asked so that she could mention this ?- Tracy
--Even though the idea is that Lizzie had no lawyer at her inquest, she did have benefit of an attorney since Friday. I think it's possible that Jennings advised her somewhat on what to do and say. I don't know why Lincoln didn't take this into account, and that Jennings could have prepared her- and could have prepared Emma at this point as well.
.........
"58. (Pg. 185)"- from Tracy's document.--
--Lincoln left out the last sentence of Lizzie's answer. Please note, in bold:
A. I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused I don't know one thing from another. I am telling you just as nearly as I know.
Maybe I have been reading to much testimony in one siting, but was Lizzie even specifically asked so that she could mention this ?- Tracy
--Even though the idea is that Lizzie had no lawyer at her inquest, she did have benefit of an attorney since Friday. I think it's possible that Jennings advised her somewhat on what to do and say. I don't know why Lincoln didn't take this into account, and that Jennings could have prepared her- and could have prepared Emma at this point as well.
.........
"58. (Pg. 185)"- from Tracy's document.--
--Lincoln left out the last sentence of Lizzie's answer. Please note, in bold:
A. I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused I don't know one thing from another. I am telling you just as nearly as I know.
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theebmonique
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Haulover
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- Location: Sycamore, AL
i may be getting ahead as far as where some are in the reading of it. but i'm anxious to hear reactions about lincoln's "solution" and how that works and does not work.
what i now think is that lincoln's book is superb in the lizzie borden fiction category -- especially when i look at more recent attempts at fictional accounts. lincoln respects evidence, "fact" -- to a degree. it's interesting where she drops fact and finds "opportunity" for depositing fictional ideas. this is the process whereby she comes up with her solution.
i really think the weakness part of her solution (it survives to some degree in The Legend movie) -- is explaining why andrew was struck fewer times. i don't think her psychological explanation for this is to be taken seriously, though it's interesting that she recognizes a need for some explanation there. the real explanation is much simpler, in my opinion, and certainly does not involve an explanation of "love" or "different types" of love.
what i now think is that lincoln's book is superb in the lizzie borden fiction category -- especially when i look at more recent attempts at fictional accounts. lincoln respects evidence, "fact" -- to a degree. it's interesting where she drops fact and finds "opportunity" for depositing fictional ideas. this is the process whereby she comes up with her solution.
i really think the weakness part of her solution (it survives to some degree in The Legend movie) -- is explaining why andrew was struck fewer times. i don't think her psychological explanation for this is to be taken seriously, though it's interesting that she recognizes a need for some explanation there. the real explanation is much simpler, in my opinion, and certainly does not involve an explanation of "love" or "different types" of love.
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Kat
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Victoria Lincoln:
"But I do intensely want you to see her not as a legend, a case, but as a real person---Miss Borden who lived up the street in the house called Maplecroft. Her crime, trial, and acquittal are fascinating, and I have some hitherto unused information about them all, but taken by themselves I would not find them worth writing about. Lizzie is worth it to me; Lizzie and Andrew and Abby and Emma, the family that I know not only from court records, not only from that always dubious source, in-group hearsay, but because I know the family from which my own father came---its code, its way of life, even its tensions---all so much a part of the world that was once old Fall River, 'up on the hill.' "
.........
"...I put the available hard evidence---two sets of police records, the hitherto disregarded evidence of a defense witness, and certain relevant facts dug out by the prosecution---into the hands of a top-ranking psychiatrist at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and let him draw his own conclusions."
........
"Of course, even the most honestly intended scraps of hearsay get garbled, and memories go askew. I found out once and for all how important it was to check everything I thought I knew against documentary evidence--court transcripts and the written word of contemporaries who had been on the scene---when I went back to Fall River to freshen the landscape in my memory. "
...........
"In 1960,..... The actual [trial] transcript was all and more than I had dared to hope. I read avidly, learning with equal delight how often my wildest guesses had been dead-right and how often I had been dead wrong on some point of which I had felt sure. I knew that this would cost long rewriting, but the excitement outbalanced that. I read on, visualizing one remembered face, hearing one remembered voice after another. At last I heaved a great sigh, like a glutton half-way through a stupendous feast, and said, "I'm ready for the next volume."
I met blank looks. The next volume? I had the whole thing there, a thousand pages long.
I laid my finger on the foot of the last page: 'End of Vol. I."'
......
..."Dear Miss Lincoln:
Rejoice with me---the sheep that was lost is found!
Volume Two of Lizzie Borden is here. You may
examine it at your convenience.
It was found, and I could write the story that I had thought about for the better part of a lifetime, and researched on and off for six years and then intensively for one more. Pearson's editorial judgment---shrewd, but an outsider's---had worked better on the well-organized case for the Commonwealth than on the rambling defense. I do not blame him; on the surface, everything he cut sounds trivial. But what he cut from Volume II was substantiation I needed on two key issues; and as a bonus it gave me more than one fresh, valuable insight into my cast of characters. It was, indeed, worth much rejoicing."
____________
- - Lincoln read the trial. She had a hard time putting it together but she does say she read it. She studied Porter and Pearson and newspaper accounts and the Phillips History of Fall River account of the case.
She also says she knew about the Hip-bath Collection of Jennings, yet never asked to read it! Then she claims that Welch never read that material either, yet de Mille says she and he did look at the collection.
Lincoln tries to imply, in my opinion, that she didn't want to disturb a dead Jennings, because in life he would never have wanted the material looked at. That's really reaching on her part I believe- trying to guess what a dead man would have wanted. He did preserve the material, after all.
I won't guess why, but it sort of seems like it was now available. Why didn't Lincoln look at it? It was the Preliminary Hearing, at least.
Now, that document is still not in wide circulation- so really Ms. Lincoln had access to about the same material as we do- of course it's already all been collected and available- but if Lincoln read what we did, even if it took her longer, she is starting on the same plane as any serious student, even tho she had no Internet.
"But I do intensely want you to see her not as a legend, a case, but as a real person---Miss Borden who lived up the street in the house called Maplecroft. Her crime, trial, and acquittal are fascinating, and I have some hitherto unused information about them all, but taken by themselves I would not find them worth writing about. Lizzie is worth it to me; Lizzie and Andrew and Abby and Emma, the family that I know not only from court records, not only from that always dubious source, in-group hearsay, but because I know the family from which my own father came---its code, its way of life, even its tensions---all so much a part of the world that was once old Fall River, 'up on the hill.' "
.........
"...I put the available hard evidence---two sets of police records, the hitherto disregarded evidence of a defense witness, and certain relevant facts dug out by the prosecution---into the hands of a top-ranking psychiatrist at the Johns Hopkins Hospital and let him draw his own conclusions."
........
"Of course, even the most honestly intended scraps of hearsay get garbled, and memories go askew. I found out once and for all how important it was to check everything I thought I knew against documentary evidence--court transcripts and the written word of contemporaries who had been on the scene---when I went back to Fall River to freshen the landscape in my memory. "
...........
"In 1960,..... The actual [trial] transcript was all and more than I had dared to hope. I read avidly, learning with equal delight how often my wildest guesses had been dead-right and how often I had been dead wrong on some point of which I had felt sure. I knew that this would cost long rewriting, but the excitement outbalanced that. I read on, visualizing one remembered face, hearing one remembered voice after another. At last I heaved a great sigh, like a glutton half-way through a stupendous feast, and said, "I'm ready for the next volume."
I met blank looks. The next volume? I had the whole thing there, a thousand pages long.
I laid my finger on the foot of the last page: 'End of Vol. I."'
......
..."Dear Miss Lincoln:
Rejoice with me---the sheep that was lost is found!
Volume Two of Lizzie Borden is here. You may
examine it at your convenience.
It was found, and I could write the story that I had thought about for the better part of a lifetime, and researched on and off for six years and then intensively for one more. Pearson's editorial judgment---shrewd, but an outsider's---had worked better on the well-organized case for the Commonwealth than on the rambling defense. I do not blame him; on the surface, everything he cut sounds trivial. But what he cut from Volume II was substantiation I needed on two key issues; and as a bonus it gave me more than one fresh, valuable insight into my cast of characters. It was, indeed, worth much rejoicing."
____________
- - Lincoln read the trial. She had a hard time putting it together but she does say she read it. She studied Porter and Pearson and newspaper accounts and the Phillips History of Fall River account of the case.
She also says she knew about the Hip-bath Collection of Jennings, yet never asked to read it! Then she claims that Welch never read that material either, yet de Mille says she and he did look at the collection.
Lincoln tries to imply, in my opinion, that she didn't want to disturb a dead Jennings, because in life he would never have wanted the material looked at. That's really reaching on her part I believe- trying to guess what a dead man would have wanted. He did preserve the material, after all.
I won't guess why, but it sort of seems like it was now available. Why didn't Lincoln look at it? It was the Preliminary Hearing, at least.
Now, that document is still not in wide circulation- so really Ms. Lincoln had access to about the same material as we do- of course it's already all been collected and available- but if Lincoln read what we did, even if it took her longer, she is starting on the same plane as any serious student, even tho she had no Internet.
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Haulover
- Posts: 721
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:44 pm
- Real Name: Eugene Hosey
- Location: Sycamore, AL
and she claimed to use two newspapers -- one was the Baltimore Sun -- and i can't remember the other one (i don't have source here with me, i think it was a NY paper)
i'm just noting that to add to the sources listed by kat.
(i didn't notice you jumping over me -- you must have been in an ethereal mood.)
i'm just noting that to add to the sources listed by kat.
(i didn't notice you jumping over me -- you must have been in an ethereal mood.)
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Kat
- Posts: 14785
- Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:59 pm
- Real Name:
- Location: Central Florida
Lincoln:
"Mr. Jennings had reason not to want Mr. Porter's book lying about in the awful durability of hard covers. It contained just enough of Lizzie's inquest testimony to make one want to read more, and from that testimony one can learn just what specific fact the Bordens' maid, Bridget, was paid not to tell. Mr. Jennings need not have worried. What must have looked so obvious to him was hidden in a sea of sand, for the full inquest is too smotheringly dull for any uninitiated eye to bother with it. Furthermore, no possessor of the initiated eye would have made him trouble. The whole town liked and respected Andrew Jennings.
In large part, this is why I did not ask to see the hip-bath. I remembered him, and I knew that he himself would not have shown it to me. Such delicacy cost me little, since I was also fairly sure that it would be off bounds for me as it had been for the late Joseph Welch, who was shown the container but politely waved away from the contents. In fact, I know of only one writer who ever had the privilege, and he was one with a preconceived plan for a book that would clear Lizzie, accuse the maid, and so by extension scotch any rumors of a pay-off. "
--OMG! A writer who thinks the inquest was boring and it was just too much for her to ask to see The Preliminary Hearing because she didn't want to cause a dead man trouble??
This doesn't make any sense to me- unless she thought there was more in there she did not want to deal with?
It's like she's claiming "Don't bother me with the facts" even tho she went to the extent of tracking down the trial.
Also, Lincoln:
"However, after the jury was locked up, Lizzie's uncut testimony, that sea of sand, was published in full by the New Bedford Standard-Times, a public service which received neither thanks nor attention. And the preliminary investigation (which also contained a transcript of that testimony) was covered by forty out-of-town newspapers, not only with remarkable fullness but, as I discovered by comparing reports one against the other, with a stenographic accuracy downright awesome to our degenerate age of tape recorders. These two court records were, I supposed, what Mr. Phillips meant by 'the mass of documents.' "
--She sounds like she knew of the published accounts of the inquest and the preliminary in the papers, so maybe she relied on these, but none of the accounts were fully accurate and some even simply paraphrased.
"Mr. Jennings had reason not to want Mr. Porter's book lying about in the awful durability of hard covers. It contained just enough of Lizzie's inquest testimony to make one want to read more, and from that testimony one can learn just what specific fact the Bordens' maid, Bridget, was paid not to tell. Mr. Jennings need not have worried. What must have looked so obvious to him was hidden in a sea of sand, for the full inquest is too smotheringly dull for any uninitiated eye to bother with it. Furthermore, no possessor of the initiated eye would have made him trouble. The whole town liked and respected Andrew Jennings.
In large part, this is why I did not ask to see the hip-bath. I remembered him, and I knew that he himself would not have shown it to me. Such delicacy cost me little, since I was also fairly sure that it would be off bounds for me as it had been for the late Joseph Welch, who was shown the container but politely waved away from the contents. In fact, I know of only one writer who ever had the privilege, and he was one with a preconceived plan for a book that would clear Lizzie, accuse the maid, and so by extension scotch any rumors of a pay-off. "
--OMG! A writer who thinks the inquest was boring and it was just too much for her to ask to see The Preliminary Hearing because she didn't want to cause a dead man trouble??
This doesn't make any sense to me- unless she thought there was more in there she did not want to deal with?
It's like she's claiming "Don't bother me with the facts" even tho she went to the extent of tracking down the trial.
Also, Lincoln:
"However, after the jury was locked up, Lizzie's uncut testimony, that sea of sand, was published in full by the New Bedford Standard-Times, a public service which received neither thanks nor attention. And the preliminary investigation (which also contained a transcript of that testimony) was covered by forty out-of-town newspapers, not only with remarkable fullness but, as I discovered by comparing reports one against the other, with a stenographic accuracy downright awesome to our degenerate age of tape recorders. These two court records were, I supposed, what Mr. Phillips meant by 'the mass of documents.' "
--She sounds like she knew of the published accounts of the inquest and the preliminary in the papers, so maybe she relied on these, but none of the accounts were fully accurate and some even simply paraphrased.
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Haulover
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i remembered when i discovered that i could not even trust her with a direct quote from a particular witness' testimony. at about the same time, i ran across something in the archives (here) where someone else made the same discovery of another author.
i was shocked that anyone would be that careless or think they could get away with it. (It's possible that inaccurate copies have floated around in the past?)
i can't find that thread again or even remember for sure which author it was, but someone remembers it.
a lesson on the importance of sourcing literally every damn word.
i was shocked that anyone would be that careless or think they could get away with it. (It's possible that inaccurate copies have floated around in the past?)
i can't find that thread again or even remember for sure which author it was, but someone remembers it.
a lesson on the importance of sourcing literally every damn word.