48 Hours

[Curryong]

According to the TV programme of the same name, the first 48 hours after a homicide is committed is vital to the solving of it. Well, I don't think we'll do that here, (though you never know!)

Nevertheless, the first 48 hours after Andrew Borden's body was discovered was full of some interesting incidents and I just wondered if we could put them into some sort of linear order, who was where and at what time, explore some byways in the case, and find, if we can, exactly what was done in those important hours and what conclusions we could draw.

[PossumPie]

10:50-11:00 am Andrew Borden dies from blows to the head with a sharp instrument.
11:00 am Bridget hears City Hall clock chime 11:00.
11:05-11:10 am Hyman Lubinsky drives his cart past the Borden house.
11:05-11:10 William Sullivan, clerk at Hudner’s Market notes Mrs. Churchill leaving the store.
11:10 am Lizzie hollers to Bridget to come down, “Someone has killed father”.
11:10-11:12 am Lizzie sends Bridget to get Dr. Bowen.
11:10-11:13 am Bridget rushes back across the street from Bowen’s, tells Lizzie he’s not at home.
11:10-11:13 am Lizzie asks Bridget if she knows where Alice Russell lives. tells her to go get her.
11:10-11:13 am Bridget grabs her hat & shawl from kitchen entry way and rushes to Alice Russell’s.
11:10-11:13 am Mrs. Churchill observes Bridget crossing street, notices Lizzie and calls out to Lizzie who tells her “someone has murdered father.”
11:13 am Mrs. John Gormely says Mrs. Churchill runs by her yelling “Mr. Borden is murdered!”
11:10-11:14 am Mrs. Churchill goes to side door, speaks to Lizzie, then crosses street looking for a doctor.
11:12-11:14 am John Cunningham sees Mrs. Churchill talking to others then uses phone at Gorman’s paint shop to call Police.
11:15 am Marshall Hilliard receives call from news dealer Cunningham about disturbance at Borden house.
11:15 am Marshall Hilliard orders Officer Allen to go to Borden house. (Allen notes exact time on office wall clock).
11:16 – 11:20 am Mrs. Churchill returns from giving the alarm.
11:16 – 11:20 am Dr. Bowen pulls up in his carriage, met by his wife, rushes over to Borden’s.
11:16-11:20 am John Cunningham checks outside cellar door in Borden back yard, finds it locked.
11:18-11:20 am Dr. Bowen sees Andrew, asks for sheet; alone with Lizzie for approx. one minute.
11:20 am Officer Allen arrives at Bordens, met at door by Dr. Bowen. Sees Lizzie sitting alone at kitchen table.
11:20-11:21 am Allen sees Andrews’s body. Alice Russell and Mrs. Churchill come in.
11:20-11:22 am Allen checks front door notes it bolted from inside, checks closets in dining room and kitchen.
11:20 am Morse departs Daniel Emery’s on Weybosset Street, takes streetcar to the Borden’s.
11-22-11:23 am Officer Allen leaves house to return to station, Bowen goes out with him. Allen has Sawyer guard back door.
11:23-11:33 am Dr. Bowen returns home, checks rail timetable, goes to telegram Emma, stops at Baker’s Drug store. Telegram is time stamped at 11:32.
11:25 am Off. Patrick Doherty, at Bedford & Second, notes City Hall clock time enroute to Station.
11:23-11:30 am Lizzie asks to check for Mrs. Borden; Bridget & Mrs. Churchill go upstairs, discover body.
11:34 am Bridget fetches Doctor Bowen’s wife, Phoebe.
11:35 am George Petty, former resident of 92 Second Street, enters the Borden house with Dr. Bowen.
11:40 am Bowen returns to Borden house. Churchill tells him they’ve discovered Abby upstairs.
11:35-11:40 am Officer Doherty & Deputy Sheriff Wixon arrive at house; see Manning sitting on steps, met at back door by Dr. Bowen, who lets them in.
11:35-11:40 am Francis Wixon and Dr. Bowen check Andrew’s pockets and remove watch.
11:35-11:40 Officer Doherty questions Lizzie who tells him she heard a “scraping” noise.
11:35-11:40 am Officer Doherty views Abby’s body with Dr. Bowen, pulls bed out to view her better.
11:35-11:45 am Morse arrives at Borden house, first going to back yard.
11:37 am Officer Mullaly arrives.
11:39-11:40 am Officer Medley arrives at 92 Second Street.
11:44 am Doherty runs to Undertaker Gorman’s shop around corner and phones Marshall Hilliard.
11:45 am Doherty returns; Officers Mullaly. Allen, Denny, and Medley arrive.
11:45 am Dr. Dolan arrives, sees bodies.
11:45 am Morse talks to Sawyer at side door, later testifies he heard of murders from Bridget.
11:45-11:50 am Morse sees Andrew’s body, then goes upstairs and sees Abby’s body.
11:50 am Morse speaks to Lizzie as she lays on lounge in dining room.
11:50 am-Noon Asst. Marshall Fleet arrives; sees bodies; talks to Lizzie in her room w/Rev. Buck, says “…she’s not my mother, she’s my stepmother”
11:50 am Morse goes out to back yard and stays outside most of the afternoon.
11:50 am -Noon Deputy Sheriff Wixon climbs back fence and talks to workmen sawing wood in Chagnon yard.
11:50-Noon Doherty, Fleet and Medley accompany Bridget to cellar where she shows them hatchet in box on shelf.
12:15-12:20 am Officer Harrington arrives at the Borden house.
12:25 am Officer Harrington interviews Lizzie in her bedroom (she wears pink wrapper).
12:45 am Marshall Hillliard & Officers Doherty & Connors drive carriage to Andrew’s upper farm in Swansea.
3:00-4:00 pm Crime scene photographs are taken of Andrew & Abby.
3:40 pm Emma leaves on New Bedford train for Weir Junction to return to Fall River.
4:30 pm Stomachs of Andrew and Abby removed and sealed.
5:00 pm Emma arrives in Fall River.
5:00-5:30 pm State Detective George F. Seaver arrives from Taunton.
5:30 pm Dr. Dolan “delivers” bodies of Andrew and Abby to Undertaker James Winward.
5:35 pm Winward & assistant remove sofa from house and store it in a room at his building.
6:00 pm Alice leaves 92 Second St. to return home for supper.
8:45 pm Officer Joseph Hyde, observing from a northwest outside window, sees Lizzie & Alice go down cellar.
9:00 pm Officer Hyde observes Lizzie return to basement alone.

[Curryong]

Thank you Possum. That's it sorted then! Don't want to tease it out a little?

[PossumPie]

Thank you Possum. That's it sorted then! Don't want to tease it out a little?

I just kind of dumped a portion of a larger time line so people could see it. There are some interesting things there...within minutes People arrive and among the first thing that they do is check doors FINDING THEM LOCKED. An outsider wouldn't have killed, then taken the time to lock up the doors. Sure, the screen door was open in the kitchen, Lizzie purportedly went out to the barn and came back through it, but front door and cellar door were found still locked.

Also, just for the sake of a titillating fact, IS is really coincidence that Dr. Bowen wasn't home then pulled up just minutes later? did he somehow want to be home early? Or was he just hungry for lunch...

[Curryong]

John Morse seems to have been considerably upset. He obviously wanted to do something to help. He later stated that he was '3 to 4 hours walking about in different parts of the yard'.

He said 'I think when I came from the back of the house when I got the pears, I think it' (the cellar door) 'was open; I won't say for sure but I think it was.'

Well, it wasn't, as Charles Sawyer, deputised to guard the side door, almost Immediately got the creeps and made sure that the cellar door was secure. Sawyer remained patiently at his post until 6pm that night. He stated there were 'lots of boys in the yard' but didn't identify Brown and Barlow who apparently went into the barn and dared each other to go up into the loft.

I think Dr Bowen returned to his house at about 1pm for lunch. Phoebe, his wife, was apparently overcome by it all and returned earlier.

[Curryong]

Incidentally, Possum, do you think it was as late as 11.10 am when Lizzie hollered for Bridget? Bridget said she only lay down for three minutes, in her testimony, which is ridiculous, of course. She didn't undress at all and heard the 11am clock striking and perhaps she did doze off for five minutes or so, though she doesn't mention it.

[Catbooks]

ooh, good one, curryong! i like this idea.

possum, did you have that timeline already worked out? it's very helpful! do we know when alice russell arrived at the borden's? 11:10-11:13 bridget starts off to get her, then 11:20-11:21 she and mrs. churchill come in. is that when alice first arrived? i wish harrington had arrived first, or earlier. he with his extremely acute and detailed powers of observation.

what *was* morse doing in the back yard for all of those hours? can't recall now if that first day was when they buried the clothes, and searched the barn privy, with him overseeing, or if that was following day.

i've always felt sorry for poor sawyer, nabbed to stand guard all day. was it the back cellar door he made sure was locked? i thought there was a door coming from the cellar to upstairs, near the back door he was guarding, and that's the one he made sure was locked. but i could be wrong on that. interesting that the one officer did check the outside cellar door pretty early on, and found it locked. that's another detail i wasn't clear on - if morse could have been right and it was unlocked, or even open.

[PossumPie]

ooh, good one, curryong! i like this idea.

possum, did you have that timeline already worked out? it's very helpful! do we know when alice russell arrived at the borden's? 11:10-11:13 bridget starts off to get her, then 11:20-11:21 she and mrs. churchill come in. is that when alice first arrived? i wish harrington had arrived first, or earlier. he with his extremely acute and detailed powers of observation.

what *was* morse doing in the back yard for all of those hours? can't recall now if that first day was when they buried the clothes, and searched the barn privy, with him overseeing, or if that was following day.

i've always felt sorry for poor sawyer, nabbed to stand guard all day. was it the back cellar door he made sure was locked? i thought there was a door coming from the cellar to upstairs, near the back door he was guarding, and that's the one he made sure was locked. but i could be wrong on that. interesting that the one officer did check the outside cellar door pretty early on, and found it locked. that's another detail i wasn't clear on - if morse could have been right and it was unlocked, or even open.

I have several timelines I've saved. Why reinvent the wheel?

[Curryong]

I think John Morse probably wasn't doing anything in particular, just pacing about. The yard seems to have been a hive of activity with men and boys taking a look. You are right, Catbooks, it was the door leading upstairs that Sawyer locked.

Mrs Marianna Holmes, whose daughters had gone to school with Lizzie, heard about the homicides at about 11:45 am, quite early on. The Holmes's lived on Pine St., apparently a better part of town, so they wouldn't be calling the murders out in the local streets. How did she hear about it?

She went to the Bowen house first, after apparently going over to a neighbour's place to tell her! Mrs Phoebe Bowen had been called over to assist and comfort after her spouse had left for the telegraph office, and, at Lizzie's urging, Mrs Churchill and Bridget found Abby.

Mrs Bowen wasn't long at the Bordens however, before the Doctor sent her home. Couldn't cope, didn't want to be there, had to get his lunch ready??

Did she then call every female friend/acquaintance she could think of to impart the sensational news on the telephone? As a doctor, Bowen would have had a phone. The Holmes's would probably have had one.

Marianna then hot-footed it over to 2nd St and Dr Bowen, who was then home, (lunch?) escorted her over to the Borden place. At first she was barred from seeing Lizzie and just sat in the kitchen but then got a message Lizzie wanted to see her.
From then on she was a main fixture as comforter and soother, and she and her husband Charles remained two of Lizzie's greatest supporters. They threw her a 'welcome home' party at their home on her acquittal.

[Curryong]

According to an article by Denise Noe in The Hatchet, Hyman Lubinsky, an ice-cream pedlar, was an immigrant from Tsarist Russia and between 16 and 18 years old at the time of the Borden murders. He worked for a Mr Wilkinson, whose store was at 42 Main St.

Lubinsky stated that he was pedalling past No. 92 on Second St when he noticed 'a lady come out the way from the barn right to the stairs from the back of the house' (at about 11:10 am.) He said she wore 'a dark coloured dress' (doesn't sound like the Bedford cord) and was 'walking real slow'. (Breathless after tossing the hatchet?)

At the trial Knowlton seems to have made mincemeat of him, undoubtedly as a result of Lubinsky's confusion about times and difficulties with the English language. Doesn't mean he was a liar, though!

He remained in low paying jobs all his life before dying of tuberculosis. In 1916 he was living at 230 Second St (re-numbered from 92.)

[debbiediablo]

Great timeline...thank you so much for making this easy, Pussom.

edited: Pussom to Possum. Sheesh.

[Curryong]

It is indeed an excellent time-line and I've already saved it!

[Catbooks]

According to an article by Denise Noe in The Hatchet, Hyman Lubinsky, an ice-cream pedlar, was an immigrant from Tsarist Russia and between 16 and 18 years old at the time of the Borden murders. He worked for a Mr Wilkinson, whose store was at 42 Main St.

Lubinsky stated that he was pedalling past No. 92 on Second St when he noticed 'a lady come out the way from the barn right to the stairs from the back of the house' (at about 11:10 am.) He said she wore 'a dark coloured dress' (doesn't sound like the Bedford cord) and was 'walking real slow'. (Breathless after tossing the hatchet?)

At the trial Knowlton seems to have made mincemeat of him, undoubtedly as a result of Lubinsky's confusion about times and difficulties with the English language. Doesn't mean he was a liar, though!

He remained in low paying jobs all his life before dying of tuberculosis. In 1916 he was living at 230 Second St (re-numbered from 92.)

wish we knew exactly what 'come out the way from the barn' meant. the bedford cord could be described as dark colored, especially from a distance. the dark blue of the print was more predominant than the light blue background it was on.

wait, are you saying that in 1916 hyman lived at the borden's house?

[Curryong]

Yes, he lived there for about a year before the sisters sold it. (I think it was in 1917 they sold it, of course by then they were probably only communicating through their lawyers and business manager.) It remained a 'duplex' at that time I believe. Don't know who the other tenants were. Hyram was married by then.

[Catbooks]

this case is full of the weirdest overlaps.

[Curryong]

Yes, so many people connected in a 'six degrees of separation' sort of way.

Did you read my post about the 'boarding house' in New Bedford and how the Nobles were connected to Lizzie?

[Curryong]

Catbooks, with regard to the Ruby thread, don't know whether you are still interested, but a witness, Macy C Macomber, gave a statement to the police about being near to Wade's store. "Stood in front of Wade's store from ten to twenty minutes, talking to several persons. I then drove down the street to Louis L. Hall's and was standing there when Mrs Churchill ran down."

Allen posted a lot of witness statements in the 'To poison or not to poison..' thread, when lots of people were tackling Franz's theory of 2nd Street not being a busy street! That was one of them. I don't know how far down the street Louis Hall was, but it seems there were several people out in front of Wade's. None of the witnesses up and down the street seemed to note anything out of the ordinary.

[Catbooks]

i suppose part of it is that fall river was a small american town, and there were so many people with the same last names, many who were related to one another. but still, it's weird to keep bumping up against the same names in different contexts this often.

no, i didn't see that post. last night i searched 'nobles' and 'noble,' but couldn't find it. do you remember which thread it was in?

you're full of interesting details, curryong! not just on this thread, but on others too. things i've not heard before. i haven't read mary macomber's statement. yeah, i don't know where louis hall's was. drove down the street sounds like it was farther south, beyond wade's, since north is usually 'upstreet.' but if she were farther south, how would she have seen mrs. churchill? although, i don't know where mrs. churchill had gone.

[Curryong]

Maybe Louis lived near the stables where, remember, mrs Churchill went running to before Dr Bowen arrived, or am I getting confused between North and South. I am so sorry about giving you the wrong surname. I don't know why I put down Noble!

Later: Of course! Hall's Livery Stables!

[Catbooks]

is that where she went? was it to use a phone? i know there was a stable on the opposite side of the street, just a building or so north. was that the one? cripes, the older stuff i used to know about this is getting pushed out of me brain by the new stuff ;p

no worries. there are a bazillion names and streets to remember! sometimes i feel like we're trying to reconstruct the whole town, including all of its residents. a daunting task to keep everything and everyone straight.

[Curryong]

Exactly! My head spins sometimes! I think she went originally to get a doctor as Bowen was unavailable. Her yard-man was over at the stables getting the family carriage or trap fixed, and I think she probably wanted him to go look for a doctor. (Though the street was absolutely infested with doctors they all seemed to be away.) Don't think the stable had a phone or she would surely have asked to use it, but then, she doesn't seem to have been thinking very clearly.

[Curryong]

The only phone nearby seems to have been Gorman's paint shop, actually. Mrs Churchill appears to have been, naturally enough, in a bit of a panic. She was rushing about talking of murder, so the news dealer John Cunningham, who was standing nearby (there seems to have been an awful lot of people standing around talking at different locations) slithered off and called the two big newspapers in town then the police. That was from Gorman's the paint shop.

Cunningham returned and saw Dr Bowen driving up Second Street, then Bridget and Alice Russell walking up, followed by Officer Allen (probably panting!) He saw Allen go inside the house (Bowen was already there) while he was waiting for his pals Manning and Stevens, reporters from the Fall River Daily Globe and the Fall River Daily News.

The three of them jumped the fence (Cunningham got hell for that when he testified) and went around the South of the house, avoiding Sawyer, into the back yard. Apparently they checked the cellar door (it was locked) and went around the long grass seeing if anything had been dropped there (like a knife or similar, probably) but found nothing! They were certainly on the spot very early, however!

[Catbooks]

oh that's right, her yard man was over at the stables nearly across the street. ha, the street infested with doctors. seems like, doesn't it? you'd think one of the doctors would have a phone at their house, but apparently not.

did she meet cunningham on the way to gorman's paint shop, then he trotted off to use the phone while she trotted back to the bordens?

i found gorman's (identified just as a paint shop) on the neighborhood map. it was at the end of the block, opposite side of the street, at the corner of 2nd and spring streets. just a tiny bit down from wade's, nearly opposite it.

wait, he saw bridget and alice coming down 2nd? i thought bridget went on ahead, back to the bordens, while alice changed her dress into something street-worthy.

[Curryong]

I think The Bowens' had a phone because it's my theory that Phoebe Bowen went back home afterwards and phoned her friends, including Marianna Holmes!

After you reminded me about Alice Russell getting changed I went back to Cunningham's testimony and checked (Trial of Lizzie Borden Vol.1.) He states (Page 423) that he saw Bridget and Alice coming over Borden St and up Second St. Definitely sounds like he saw them together.

Then (under cross-examination, where incidentally he gets a full dose of sarcasm from Lizzie's attorney for taking his newspaper friends for a look around in the Bordens' back yard) we get this (Page 426)

Q. And they three' (Dr Bowen, Alice and Bridget) 'went on and turned into the Borden yard, didn't they?
A. Not together they didn't
Q. No, but at different times.

Cunningham then goes on about not seeing where Dr Bowen's team (horse and carriage went) so in the end we don't know who he was referring to in the above testimony, Bowen or the two women!

[Catbooks]

well, that testimony is clear as mud, isn't it?

i just looked at the neighborhood map again, and found gorman's (identified as 'gorman's store,' no mention of paint). it was upstreet (north), opposite side from the bordens, corner of 2nd and borden streets.

[Curryong]

I think it was Possum who said it was a paint store in one of his posts. That sounds like a really interesting neighbourhood map you have, Catbooks. Where is it from?

[Catbooks]

it's from rebello. what's her name - she who flounced - posted it and i copied it to my drive because it's so interesting and useful.

[debbiediablo]

FactFlouncer? Oops...

[Curryong]

Yes, LOL, her! Good name!

Seriously though, thank you Catbooks and um. It's very interesting. A laundry, a paint store and stables over the other side of the road, and Union Plumbing, a painter and decorator and Wade's store as neighbours! How frightfully déclassé! No wonder Lizzie scuttled off to more cultured surroundings, befitting one who had travelled in Europe, as soon as she could!

[Catbooks]

factflouncer

i do thank her, though, for posting this map, as well as what she had on crowe's yard.

Yes, LOL, her! Good name!

Seriously though, thank you Catbooks and um. It's very interesting. A laundry, a paint store and stables over the other side of the road, and Union Plumbing, a painter and decorator and Wade's store as neighbours! How frightfully déclassé! No wonder Lizzie scuttled off to more cultured surroundings, befitting one who had travelled in Europe, as soon as she could!

it's interesting seeing just how commercial an area it was, isn't it? plus just where everything was, in relationship to the borden's house. including the drug store!

but i don't really blame lizzie or emma for not wanting to live in that house, or neighborhood, given how wealthy andrew was. it was weird. he was weird. they were all weird.

[Curryong]

Well, yes, that might very well be the whole kernel of the Borden case, mightn't it. Andrew saw no need to move, convenient for his work etc. and was quite obviously never going to move, this side of the grave.
While Lizzie saw her youth and prospects for a better life slipping away, year by year, in surroundings she despised, a house with no decent facilities, in a neighbourhood she seemed to feel was becoming violent and was beneath her.

[Catbooks]

just found something in the witness statements, from mrs. kelly, although this was before andrew died.

she said she'd just glanced at the clock on her way out of her house (presumably because she had an appointment with the dentist, so needed to be aware of the time) when she saw andrew coming around the northwest corner of his house, going to the front door and putting a key in the lock. the time was confirmed by her maid, who also said mrs. kelly had left at 10:35.

bridget put the time she let andrew in the front door at 10:50, a whole 15 minutes later.

i'm going to go with mrs. kelly and her maid on this being the correct time andrew arrived home, not bridget.

[Curryong]

Yes, you'd hardly imagine Bridget in the middle of washing windows, dashing off to look at the kitchen clock. I always understood though, that the Kelly's clock was 5 minutes slow or something, and Mrs Kelly admitted that later. Still, if she is right and Bridget wrong it gives Lizzie even more time to prepare, etc.

[PossumPie]

Couple of things...a few months ago I mentioned the nearness of the drug store. Even giving Lizzie the benefit of the doubt and saying it WASN'T her seen trying to buy poison, she most obviously blatantly lied about not knowing the store...it is a long block and a half from her house. You can "Google map" it to see how close it actually is (It isn't there anymore but the intersection is the same) I don't care if you never go in a store, you can't live years in the same house and not have heard of a store that close.

Next is time perception. One challenge in this case is that people are incredulous that any killer could get done all the cleanup in such a short time. We really have no idea about guessing time. The "Lizzie is innocent" people say she could not have cleaned up and hid the hatchet in the short amount of time she had. What they forget is that if it WASN'T Lizzie, whoever it was would have had to clean up and make their escape in the same amount of time so it COULD BE DONE B/C IT WAS DONE. A few months ago I set my timer on my microwave for 5 minutes, quickly went upstairs, undressed, showered including a quick wash of my hair, dried off and re-dressed, got back downstairs before it beeped. We think of the leisurely way we do things and say it can't be done quicker. Just have your alarm fail to go off, and see how quickly you can get ready for work when you are running late!! 5 minutes is 300 ticks of the second hand, and it is plenty of time if you life depends on you cleaning yourself up. Many of the testimonies which mention a time are inaccurate because people just don't judge time correctly, there are a few we are fairly sure about, and we can recreate the time-frame for the rest from them.
Remember in the Jack the Ripper case, many of the murders occurred during a 1 or 2 minute window between when people passed by. People are still astounded that the killer worked so quickly and wasn't seen.

[Curryong]

And, of course, Possum, we are talking about a world without wrist watches and mobile phones to gauge an accurate time. My sitting room clock isn't behaving itself at the moment but if my wrist watch isn't on my wrist I still have numerous options for telling me the correct time. Not so in the 1880's and 1890's.

When I first started studying the Jack the Ripper murders, years ago, I was always struck by witnesses, usually very poor people, who took their time from clocks on church towers, in baker's windows, on post offices and when pubs closed for the night. Of course men like Andrew would wear pocket watches, but they may have set their watches from public clocks, too.

[Catbooks]

i haven't read about mrs. kelly's clock being 5 minutes slow. if that's true, it brings us to 10:40 when andrew arrived back home.

i was reading quite a few other witness statements of very different times! one who swore he was right because he'd just checked his pocketwatch, yet seemed to me had to be at least half an hour off.

i've mentioned several times that lizzie had to have been lying about not knowing the existence of smith's drug store, after living there for 20 years. it's simply not possible. even if she'd never stepped foot in there during the entire 20 years, she'd have had to know where it was.

good point that *someone* killed andrew, and got away unseen and without being covered in blood, even if it wasn't lizzie.

[Curryong]

I think it must have been about 10:40ish, give or take a couple of minutes, due to the bank people and the carpenter etc who saw Andrew for a few minutes before he wended his way home. He didn't linger anywhere as he told a couple of them he wasn't feeling well. We don't know whether he walked briskly. If only he had stayed downtown for ten minutes or so and had a glass of lemonade and a rest before going home.

In those circumstances Lizzie might not have had the time to bump him off before Uncle John arrived back. I still wonder whether she knew he'd been asked to come back for the midday meal. Remember, she wasn't there for breakfast and arrived downstairs after he left to visit his niece and nephew.

[Curryong]

There was a small private 'lying- in' ceremony held at No 92 on the Saturday following the murders, before the funeral. There were crowds outside the house and in the streets around, waiting for the funeral cortège.

According to Abbie Whitehead Potter she, her mother Sarah and grandmother Mrs Jane Gray were the only mourners on Abby's side of the family at this ceremony, while there were many business associates of Andrew's present.

Andrew's coffin, hardly surprisingly, was securely nailed down but Abby's was half open, showing her head and upper body. Poor Abby! I wonder what her facial expression was like when she was found, before the mortician had done his work? She was probably buried in her Sunday best dress. On one black casket was placed an olive branch, on the other a sheaf of wheat.

Details from 'Goodbye Lizzie Borden: Robert Sullivan. Page 39.

[debbiediablo]

A few months ago I set my timer on my microwave for 5 minutes, quickly went upstairs, undressed, showered including a quick wash of my hair, dried off and re-dressed, got back downstairs before it beeped.

I do agree. Quite obviously it got done because someone, Lizzie or otherwise, did it, but a 5 minute shower disregards the lack of modern plumbing in the house, the complexity of Victorian clothing and the difficulty of removing blood from clothing and, depending on how much mess was made, from around and under fingernails. The flip side of this is no one, including the police, seemed to be looking closely at anything that afternoon except for one officer who seems to have reared in a dressmaker's shop. Did the picnic include a keg?

[Curryong]

I agree with you, debbie about the lack of modern plumbing making difficulties. Andrew's killer would have had to have been extremely well-covered.
If Lizzie had to change that would have meant, (after cleaning herself, and it's doubtful she had a pot of hot water ready on the stove,) a change of outfit, with an infinite number of buttons to do up etc. Then she would have had to smooth down her hair with at least a comb.

I think Lizzie did it, covered up almost to her boots with Andrew's coat, and also took steps to avoid the main trajectory of blood by shielding herself with the door-frame behind the couch. Would there necessarily have been blood under her finger-nails, though?

[PossumPie]

A few months ago I set my timer on my microwave for 5 minutes, quickly went upstairs, undressed, showered including a quick wash of my hair, dried off and re-dressed, got back downstairs before it beeped.

I do agree. Quite obviously it got done because someone, Lizzie or otherwise, did it, but a 5 minute shower disregards the lack of modern plumbing in the house, the complexity of Victorian clothing and the difficulty of removing blood from clothing and, depending on how much mess was made, from around and under fingernails. The flip side of this is no one, including the police, seemed to be looking closely at anything that afternoon except for one officer who seems to have reared in a dressmaker's shop. Did the picnic include a keg?

True, but I'm not implying Lizzie undressed completely and washed her whole body, Just that it is surprising how much one can accomplish in a small amount of time. I think in 5 min. she could have removed his coat, put it under his head, gone down basement to wash off her forearm and shins of any splatter, dried off, gone upstairs and to the back yard, tossed the hatchet, and on her way back in called to Bridget. Remember, she swore under oath that she had been in the barn for 20 min. eating pears. It is obvious now that from the time Bridget went upstairs to when Lizzie raised the alarm was not 20 min. When the Adrenaline going full throttle, time seemed to stretch out. 5 min. FELT like 20 min. to her.

[Curryong]

I'm not trying to be difficult Possum, but with Victorian clothing being neck to toe, surely her 'shins' would have been covered during Andrew's murder, (she may have been barefoot during Abby's) with stockings, petticoat and dress. Her lower right stocking may have got a splash or two but she could risk that.

As far as observers were concerned it would have been her shoes or boots and dress that would have had to be pristine later, and they appeared to be. Her boots/shoes could easily be wiped with one of the damp hankies, as presumably were her hands. (Her arms would have been covered by Andrew's coat.)

With that protection I think she could easily have done it in the time, as you say. The only thing she may have worried about might have been the hem of her dress which was why she quickly changed into a pink wrapper and the Bedford cord dress was later burned.

[Curryong]

Does anyone know why Lizzie would have chosen Winward as the funeral director she wanted, as she mentioned to Alice Russell after her parents' deaths, shocking her? Were Andrew and Winward friends, having been in the same line of business, so to speak?

Was Andrew considered still in the undertaking/carpentery business in 1892, or had that long since gone by the wayside? Also, if Winwards were in charge of the funeral arrangements, (and Mr Winward did escort Lizzie to her carriage for the funeral cortège) who was James Renwick, who came to the house on the Thursday afternoon to prepare the bodies for burial?

[MysteryReader]

Where did y'all get your information from? I only have the one book (it's all I can afford now) but I plan on reading the others. I expect there to be books that are dry and factual and I expect there to be books that are a little over the top. I expect some facts and I expect some embellishment of the truth.

[Curryong]

I know Possum has a collection of Lizzie books, but speaking (if I can) for Catbooks, debbiediablo and myself, when we researched a particular thing we took a lot from the Forum here, using the Search engine, using the archives, looking up testimony. It's a wonderful resource. I don't think Catbooks owns many books on the case and I don't either.

As Possum always says, books on the case often cherry-pick or are inaccurate. I do think that a book like the one Stefani edited 'The Trial of Lizzie Borden' which gives all the testimony at the trial, is useful to have. Dry in places but very handy! Don't forget too, that Lizzie gave evidence at the Inquest and there was the Preliminary hearing as well.

[MysteryReader]

I know about that (the looking up, etc) but isn't it up to the reader to decide whether or not someone did it (in this case)?

[Curryong]

Yes, absolutely! But do get all the facts of the case at your fingertips first ie the testimony in court from witnesses AT THE TIME! Sorry for 'shouting' but that is just so important. Download the documents from your computer if you have to, or, as I previously suggested, get one book with the testimony laid out.
You can then make an informed decision about whether so and so is telling the truth in his/her book, or whether they are just hooking on to a particular suspect to sell their book.

I remember, years ago, buying a book called 'Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution'. I was really into it. I had read so many inaccurate books on the subject. I thought "Wow, Stephen Knight and his team of researchers have really done a brilliant job here!"
Wrong! I found out later he'd been both hoodwinked by a main informant and had cherry-picked his information in pushing his suspect. It may have been a best seller but Knight didn't tell the truth.

The original documents and reports are always the best. How are you going to come to a solution if you only know half the story?

[MysteryReader]

I have the testimonies from all of the people involved. In addition, Masterton explains his fascination- his great-grandmother( Minnie Masterton) lived in Fall River in 1892 when they were murdered. So I don't think that he's going to mess with things- so far, he's telling what I've already read- he's using the 3 newspapers and previous books. In addition, he says "In 1973, my older son Fred R. Masterton, then a college freshman presented me with the most memorable Christmas gift I have ever received: a syllabus for a course on the Borden case offered at the UM (my abbreviation). The readings recommended for that course convinced me that many of the commonly accepted "facts" of the case were flat-out wrong." (he goes on to cite the weather as one of them). He's also had many discussions with his fellow chemist, Laddie Berka, who knows more about forensics that he did. He also used the help of people from the Fall River Public Library and the Fall River Historical Society Museum. So far, his information isn't cherry picked but the real thing. I'm interested in the latter part of his book.

[Curryong]

That sounds good! Looking forward to hearing what his solution is!

[Inspector]

That’s a good timeline, and map.
I thought about compiling a list of supposed testimony discrepancies as I’m going through all the primary testimony, and trial.
But, have decided against it.
Bowen is a strange character.
Sheriff Wixon made me laugh when Robinson was asking him all about his scaling the lumber pile, and fence to get to a man in a hat sawing.
Robinson finally asked where did you go from that point?
Wixon replies anticlimactically “I went home.”
Lubinsky was younger than I thought, and saw a woman in a dark dress, Bridget stated she wore a dark dress all morning.
Mrs. Churchill remembered Bridget in a light dress.
Lizzie seems to provide abnormal conversations that revolve around her own way of protecting herself.
Always building a protective wall, repairing parts that get knocked down.
Of coarse, based on her inquest and others.
If she had appeared on the witness stand, I think she would have possibly not fared as well.
Emma,I do not trust. Just my feelings.
She seemed surprised that Lizzie was burning the dress,
but also states she had previously told Lizzie to get rid of it.
The pea shelling interview with Emma, possibly in “Parallel Lives “ not for sure where I read it, but I don’t believe it for a second.