Questions

[MysteryReader]

Okay, these are what I have so far when reading:

1. How does one not notice a crowd (any size) of people milling outside a house? (I believe it said there were at least 100 people)
2. Did the police arrest Lizzie because they had no one else?

An interesting point I noticed: (p. 20-21): On Saturday afternoon a second search was made of the Borden house. They had the complete cooperation of Lizzie and Emma Borden, who made it clear that they wanted the search to be as through as possible. Detective Seaver took each dress off its hanger and examined it carefully. In a few cases, Assistant Marsha Fleet took a dress to a window to look at it in stronger light. They were looking for blood stains; they didn't find any.

3. Who was Joseph Lemay? (He saw a male during his walk in his woods. The man was unshaven, dressed in black, and had blood stains on his shirt. He had a small hatchet.
4. Wasn't Lizzie sedated? That would account for her calm behavior, right?
5. Lizzie gave her high school ring to her father once she dropped out. Could it be that Andrew bought it for her and wanted it back when she dropped out?
6. Couldn't the killer have entered in the back door? There were 3 doors: the front, the back, and the cellar. Also, didn't someone mention that the cellar windows were opened?

Another interesting point: some people think that Lizzie changed her testimony: she was confused. She seems to to lose her composure and frequently shows confusion. "I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused that I don't know one thing from another. She even tells Knowlton that she didn't know what his name was.

Could that have been because she had been sedated?

Also, the arrest warrant shows that she was charged with Andrew's murder but doesn't mention Abby's. It did specify that the murder weapon was a hatchet. Some people were disappointed, having told police they believed it could have been a flat-iron (she had been using them that morning and it is easier to clean blood off one than it is a hatchet.

Back to reading!

[Curryong]

Oy, MysteryReader, when verifying your statements tell us book (or testimony page) author and page number, because other posters may not know what book you are quoting from! Otherwise you will get a big smack! Joke, joke!

I am out, without my books and notes, but from what I can remember, Uncle John came back quite early for his lunch before the crowds descended. Where are you getting the 'hundreds of people' from? Newspaper reports? There were two newspaper reporters early on the scene. They didn't see crowds, got onto the Borden grounds quite easily and checked on the cellar door. Locked! (I posted that on the thread '48 Hours'.) The first policeman on the scene, Officer
Allen, checked the cellar door. Locked!

The police arrested Lizzie (admittedly on mainly circumstantial evidence) because she had means, motive and opportunity. Please don't discount the importance of motive. They came to the conclusion that there was no evidence of an intruder hanging about for 90 minutes, because she was nearby to BOTH victims at the time of their deaths, and also because of various dubious statements Lizzie made to various people BEFORE she was dosed up by Dr Bowen.

I'm not surprised that Emma and Lizzie were cooperative on the Saturday. Plenty of time to have gotten rid of anything suspicious, including burning the blue cord dress. Lizzie certainly wasn't overly cooperative on the day of the murder, if you read the testimony of Marshall Fleet, Officer Harrington and others, especially about having her room searched, which was done in a very superficial way so as not to disturb her.

Incidentally, Lizzie's winter silk dresses at the corner of the closet in the upper hall were never taken out and examined. (According to police testimony.) Allen pointed that out a lot in her posts on various threads, I remember. Anything could have been hanging underneath them.

I believe that the charges Lizzie finally faced were for the murder of both parents. I'll have to go back and look at the details of the arrest warrant. Having written all that, I know I haven't put sources, either!

[MysteryReader]

Okay, my mistake I'm currently reading only one book (this was my first book I've ever purchased on it): Lizzie Didn't Do It! written by William Masterton (2000).

Uncle John: page 14-15 "For a man about to eat dinner, John Morse behaved a bit strangely. He took time out to eat a couple of pears before entering the house, where Bridget told him what had happened. Later Morse said he didn't notice the crowd of a hundred or more curious people milling around outside the Borden house." Now, the picture that accompanies this passage is from Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p.2. I know Uncle John got back to the house at 11:45 AM (now, I'm not opposed to having a snack before a meal if I've gotten hungry so that doesn't bother me. What sticks out is the crowd of people.

I think they arrested Lizzie because they didn't have anyone else. There wasn't physical evidence to tie her to the murders. I've got here on page 49 regarding the arrest warrant not naming Abby on it.

[MysteryReader]

Melvin Adams was on Lizzie's team and when it comes to the question about timing (Abby was dead first because her blood was darker and coagulated and Andrew's body was warmer):

p. 57 (same book): "Adams put Professor Draper of Harvard, an authority in this field, on the stand. He pointed out (this is Draper pointing)that, in essence, time of death cannot be estimated from the extent of coagulation of the blood. Finally, when Dr. Dolan said that Andrew Borden's body was warmer than that of his wife Abby when he examined them, Melvin Adams pointed out that Dolan failed to use a thermometer here, relying instead of his sense of touch."

Also, remember the stomach contents or lack thereof? Here is how Professor Wood explains it: "...the stomach upset suffered by both of them a couple of days earlier could affect the rate of digestion." (This is one reason that I felt that things were off. Everything I had been reading up to this point, on the forum, never mentioned that due to the sickness, his stomach would be emptier faster).

[Curryong]

Putting a time of death to a murder victim is notoriously uncertain even today and most modern doctors err on the side of caution and put a wide estimate. All I know is that the three doctors (including a Dr Dedrick) who saw the victims in situ at the Borden home believed that Abby died first and testified to it. No doctor on the defence team, so far as I am aware, anyway, saw Abby and Andrew's bodies. I'm not saying there wasn't room for error but Dr Dolan, at least, was a very experienced doctor.

I'm not medically trained, about stomach contents, time of death, or anything else. All I can say is that I would guess that Andrew was a thin man (may have had a high metabolism) a sparse eater who walked a lot, and might not have had much breakfast that day because of still feeling queasy. Abby was overweight, didn't take much exercise, liked her food and perhaps had got over the Tuesday night sickness enough to have tucked away a substantial breakfast!

PS the 'Lizzie Borden Sourcebook' is interesting, isn't it, and specialises in printing the numerous newspaper reports of the time. Lizzie was a sensation! John Morse was a country boy, homespun and somewhat eccentric.

PPS Joseph Lemay was a farmer from North Fall River who the defence raked up at the time of the trial to testify that on August 16th, twelve days after the murders, he had seen a bloodstained man with a hatchet in the woods.

[Curryong]

Still away from home but have got ten minutes free and looked it up!

'On the 2nd of December 1892 the Grand Jury returned three indictments against Lizzie Borden. One charged her with the murder of her father, Andrew J. Borden, another charged her with the murder of her stepmother Abby D. Borden and the third charged her with the murder of both.....there were twenty-one members present. Of these twenty voted 'yes' and one 'no'. '

(That last sentence refers to 'guilty' or 'innocent'.)

'The Fall River Tragedy: A History of the Borden Murders'. By Edwin Porter. Page 142.

[Curryong]

By the way, sorry, can't provide a link (I-pad playing up) but on Page 22 of the threads, about a quarter down the page, though the posters are discussing poisoning, there are a couple of good posts on summer sickness/stomach contents of both Bordens' stomachs. It is 'Maybe Lizzie did get hold of some poisening,' started by Snokkums.

[PossumPie]

MysteryReader, Welcome aboard !!!
"Facts" are easily debated, justified, etc. Each of your points above had been very logically disputed in previous threads. Search through old posts here for each of your questions. For example, 1. crowds. It really depends who listen to. I've read books that make it sound like thousands of people lined the streets around the Borden house, and others who use eyewitness testimony saying the only people outside when Uncle Morse came home was one officer and the neighbor. His testimony bears that up. I welcome your posts, but please understand many of us have read virtually every book on Lizzie, and almost every one has some glaring errors. Some authors are better than others at not posting repeated mistakes, but many just assume that the person they quote has done their homework. I roll my eyes when I pick up a Borden book and it starts out with "It was the hottest day on record in Fall River..." I've gone back through the old newspapers and it was barely 80 degrees Fahrenheit. The author was simply too lazy to check the facts but repeated other mistakes of past authors.
What helped me was wading through the mountains of direct sworn witness testimony on this website. Even there contradictions are the norm. BUT at least it is first-hand contradictions. Lizzie was 'calm' long before any morphine was given. Police officers remarked how strange that was almost immediately. It doesn't prove anything, people react in different ways. The killer would have HAD to enter through the back or side door. From a very careful examination of the testimony, No one had yet unlocked the night lock on the front door. This lock would have had to have been unlocked with a key from the inside before anyone could enter or exit the house. It was Lizzie's "unofficial" duty in the mornings to unlock it, and Bridget testified that it was still locked when Mr. Borden arrived home about 10:35. That leaves the side door or back door. Problem there is to sneak in the back through the kitchen, the sitting room up the hall up the stairs right to the guest room, confront Mrs. Borden and kill her seems highly implausible. People hinge the "intruder" theory on someone sneaking in the front door and right up the stairs but we see that that door was not yet unlocked from the night before.

Over the past year I have seen virtually every "fact" about the case debated in a logical manner here on this forum. I try not to 'reinvent the wheel' if I can help it, I love the search button that searches back through years of posts here to find supporting evidence for my opinions. I am not 100% certain of Lizzie's guilt, but I just don't see an alternative that makes sense to me. Keep posting and keep searching for the "real" truth. At least the truth that you are satisfied with.

[PossumPie]

I just noticed...next Wednesday will be my 1 year anniversary of my first post on this site!!!!

[Curryong]

Congrats Possum. Will we be getting---Oh Yes please---another photo posted of you-know-who, in celebration?

[PossumPie]

Congrats Possum. Will we be getting---Oh Yes please---another photo posted of you-know-who, in celebration?

Who Knows? Maybe!!!

[Curryong]

Oh, Possum, come on, you're just trying to torture me now!

[twinsrwe]

Congratulations, Possum! I love the photo!