Lizzies arrest...

[BOBO]

Does anyone know if Lizzie was handcuffed when she was arrested? I don't recall reading that she was. Reason I ask is I came across a picture of a pair of handcuffs that said they were used on Lizzie at the time of her arrest. (crimearchives.net) The stumper for me is, I can't identify the handcuffs!! Years ago I escaped from handcuffs as part of my magic act. I am very acquainted with them. They appear to be a pair of Mattatucks, but most handcuff collectors tend to agree that Mattatucks wasn't patented until the 1920s, though this isn't certain. They are not Tower cuffs, but do strike a resemblance.
Yep, my friends say I need to get a life.....lol.

[Curryong]

Don't we all!
I've never heard of Lizzie having to wear handcuffs after her arrest either. Surely they would not suspect such a genteel maiden lady of attempting to abscond!
I'm afraid my knowledge of handcuffs is virtually nil, except that my son, then seven, cleverly got himself trapped in a pair he got in a showbag at an agricultural show years ago.
I have just looked up Mattatucks, and they started manufacturing things like keys, nails etc in 1896, miles too late for Lizzie! She might have been forced to wear handcuffs when she was transferred from the Fall River watch house to Taunton Jail, following her arraignment, but again I feel it's unlikely.

[PossumPie]

My understanding was they did not handcuff her at arrest, but that doesn't mean she wasn't handcuffed when she was transported to court and back...and BOBO, we are all here discussing a case from 100 years ago...we all need a life!!!!

[BOBO]

My good friends at handcuffs.org have identified the cuffs in the pic as Mattatucks. Lizzie may have been cuffed, but it wasn't with these cuffs. Most handcuff collectors agree that Mattatucks handcuffs were first patented in the 1920's. They surely wasn't around in the 1890's. Mystery solved. Now about those shoes Lizzie was wearing.........

[Nadzieja]

Seeing this is about Lizzie's arrest-----I've been reading History of the Borden Murders by E.H. Porter. On page 64 & 65 they go into Lizzie's arrest. When they served her with the warrant for her arrest she (according to this book) was in the matron's room at the courthouse. I'm not denying this, but for all this time I always thought that she was arrested at home. Anyone got anything on this?

[BOBO]

Seeing this is about Lizzie's arrest-----I've been reading History of the Borden Murders by E.H. Porter. On page 64 & 65 they go into Lizzie's arrest. When they served her with the warrant for her arrest she (according to this book) was in the matron's room at the courthouse. I'm not denying this, but for all this time I always thought that she was arrested at home. Anyone got anything on this?

According to the Sourcebook (page 50) she was arrested in the matrons room.

[Curryong]

Ah good, BOBO, you have solved your mystery! The handcuffs displayed are not quite the antiques they are claimed to be!

Lizzie was arrested in the evening at the courthouse, after she had given evidence at the Inquest. She was asked to wait in the matron's room.
An imaginative reporter wrote it up as a very dramatic scene, and I suppose it must have been. 'Crowds milling outside in the street', 'shadows lengthening' and all that!
Jennings was with her when Fleet came, and Emma and Mrs Brigham (wife of the Rev. Brigham). Lizzie spoke only a few words after Fleet arrested her. Emma and the others left and she was placed in the care of the matron for the night. In the morning she was arraigned, again at the courthouse.

Later she was moved to Taunton as there were no facilities for female prisoners (surprisingly) at Fall River.

[Nadzieja]

Thanks for the answers. Can you imagine what Lizzie was thinking. She wasn't even allowed to go home before having to go to Taunton.

[Curryong]

No, she was on remand at that stage. Emma took books in and clothing when she visited her at Taunton. Lizzie was treated quite well (all things considered) during her incarceration at Taunton with several little treats, and friends came to visit.

Even so, some letters show Lizzie was depressed, even despairing at times, and that would be natural. That's one of the reasons I've never believed in a conspiracy to murder between Lizzie/Emma or Lizzie/a lover, as no-one with any conscience would stay silent while a loved one is in prison.

[twinsrwe]

Seeing this is about Lizzie's arrest-----I've been reading History of the Borden Murders by E.H. Porter. On page 64 & 65 they go into Lizzie's arrest. When they served her with the warrant for her arrest she (according to this book) was in the matron's room at the courthouse. I'm not denying this, but for all this time I always thought that she was arrested at home. Anyone got anything on this?

According to the Sourcebook (page 50) she was arrested in the matrons room.

You're absolutely right, BOBO. Here you go... (Scroll up to page 50).

http://books.google.com/books?id=y9ypEW ... om.&f=true

[twinsrwe]

I also found this from, The Library of Congress. (Scroll down to the section titled, Sample Articles from Chronicling America):

http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/topics/borden.html

[debbiediablo]

I also found this from, The Library of Congress. (Scroll down to the section titled, Sample Articles from Chronicling America):

http://www.loc.gov/rr/news/topics/borden.html

Wow!

The article at http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ ... t+Sullivan entitled An Old Mutiny Recalled as Sustaining It is new to me. So Andrew's testimony regarding mutiny on a ship he owned and he and Abby were sailing on caused two men to be sentenced to death, later commuted to life in prison and even later released. Both were supposedly in Fall River on the day of the murder. They vowed revenge, and someone named Sullivan from the seamen's union petitioned for their release! Is there truth in these suppositions, because if this is fact then that's some interesting coincidence.

Except then the ship's captain denies the entire story...the men are still in prison. He claims Andrew and Abby were not on-board the ship. Old newspapers have a lot in common with the internet...but I'd love to see several articles current to the time '76 mutiny on the Jefferson Borden.

[debbiediablo]

Did Lizzie testify that Andrew was reading when she left him? I come across this in one of the newspaper articles (and have seen it elsewhere although I don't remember where)...but what I don't see is any print document near him, on the sofa or fallen to the floor.

Maybe he was reading his brand new will which made a fast trip to the kitchen stove. That's almost meant as a joke....almost.

[Curryong]

Lol. If he had she could have glanced at it over his shoulder and become extremely annoyed.

Unfortunately, according to her Inquest testimony, Lizzie stated he had just a letter in his hand when she asked him about the mail, and that he was 'lying down' on the couch before she left the room, presumably to have a nap. I still wonder about that 'cylindrical shape' that was spotted by the police after being burned in the stove.

[debbiediablo]

Is there any record of the letter and its contents being recovered?

[Curryong]

I imagine that the police did take a look at Andrew's letter, along with his business papers, just to make sure he hadn't received any threats by mail, but there doesn't seem to be any record of it. I've never read anything, perhaps someone else has.

In Bridget's testimony (page 30) she describes Andrew as having 'a parcel like a paper or book' in his hand when he came in the front door that day. By paper she probably meant newspaper, but the police never state that there was a newspaper nearby on the couch when he was killed. Bridget doesn't mention a letter.

[debbiediablo]

I imagine that the police did take a look at Andrew's letter, along with his business papers, just to make sure he hadn't received any threats by mail, but there doesn't seem to be any record of it. I've never read anything, perhaps someone else has.

In Bridget's testimony (page 30) she describes Andrew as having 'a parcel like a paper or book' in his hand when he came in the front door that day. By paper she probably meant newspaper, but the police never state that there was a newspaper nearby on the couch when he was killed. Bridget doesn't mention a letter.

To me these are red flags. The newspaper is no biggie although I would've thought to see it on the sofa or the floor. But a parcel and a letter should have been mentioned somewhere...everything else is accounted for right down to the tobacco in his pockets. Unless they didn't exist or disappeared before the police arrived...perhaps went up in smoke.

[Nadzieja]

This is just a thought, maybe he just put them down in the dining room. I don't think that the police would have mentioned it unless he was holding it at time of death. If he wasn't feeling well he probably just wanted to lie down & close eyes for a few minutes before the noon meal. I'm more interested in the supposed note that Abby received. I don't think there ever was one because the person who sent it would have come forward to the police to confirm the story.

[Curryong]

Andrew may have done just that, Nadzieja, or may perhaps have taken something up to his room when he changed into his cardigan-like jacket in which he was killed, and left it there. The trouble is that the data that he have at the moment is incomplete. We know Andrew kept papers in the room upstairs near the safe.

However, we don't know what was in his private papers. They wouldn't have found a will when they searched Andrew's room, as I'm certain that at least would have been recorded by the police. However, I have to say, I find the cylindrical burned shape in the stove a bit troubling and would like to know what it was.

[Nadzieja]

Do you remember who said they saw the cylindrical shape in the stove?

[debbiediablo]

Sometimes the solution of any mystery, criminal or otherwise, hinges on the most minute detail. The parcel reportedly in Andrew's hands, the letter he supposedly received, the burning of cylindrical paper(s) and/or one with Emma's name on it....these could be nothing or they could establish motive or even premeditation. They are mentioned and then disappear into history or maybe never even existed. As Possum has repeatedly pointed out, people don't always behave in predictable ways when confronted with great tragedy, so maybe the burning of papers and dresses was just thoughtlessness. But I'd love to subpoena that stove!

[Curryong]

Lizzie, of course, said that she had put a stick onto the fire to heat it up for her flats (irons) so it could have been that or maybe a rolled up magazine. Something innocent.

Officer Harrington Testimony from Lizzie's trial Page 567.

'I noticed the firebox. The fire was very near distinguished. On the south end there was a small fire which I judged was a coal fire.' (That's odd. I thought the kitchen stove was a wood burning one.) 'The embers were about dying. It was about as large as the palm of my hand. There had been some paper burned in there before, which was rolled up and still held a cylindrical form.'

Harrington then indicates that it was about 12 inches long and not more than 2 inches in diameter. He believed it to be paper.

It could have been Lizzie's stick, all the same, presuming Lizzie is telling the truth. Shelley points out in one of the earlier threads that paper easily crumbles and falls in on itself, losing form. This need not necessarily be the case if they were documents placed in a heavy cardboard cylindrical container, however.

Harry pointed out once that deeds were sometimes rolled in a cylindrical shape. However, deeds, a will etc would have copies tucked away in Jennings' office. If they were just drafts Andrew was perusing he wouldn't have put those in a hollow container. So the mystery continues!