Uncle John returns

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:35 am

In comparison, Smith Pharmacy where Eli Bence worked at the south Corner of Main and Columbia (which turns into Rodman at Main) is about 125 feet further than the shortest route to Whitehead's via Borden and approximately 630 feet less than the walk to Whitehead's via Rodman. It's about as difficult to believe Lizzie knew nothing of Smith Pharmacy as it is to believe Bridget knew nothing of where Sarah lived.

EDIT: Using an 1883 map the distance to Smith Pharmacy was between 1/7 and 1/6 of a mile or the length of 2 2/3 football fields.

Bridget should've been able to see the Whitehead house from her room.

Same disclaimer: I am the most geographically, directionally challenged person in five states. So do your own math...

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:37 am

Our posts crossed. So, really, Abby would have been able to do it quite easily. Three tenths of a mile is nothing, if she took the alternate route a hop, skip and jump. She could have kept her pies warm in that time! As has been said before don't know why Abby supposedly didn't communicate to Bridget where her half-sister lived.
Alice's house was probably nearer than it looks on the Rebello map too. Smiths Pharmacy is marked on Rebello, and I agree!

I'm a sucker for stupid haunted houses and spirit-filled tunnels. I went in one in New York and nearly had a heart attack.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:47 am

I'm sucker for haunted houses, too, and I love Halloween. My youngest daughter lives in a big old Victorian we rent to her. She and our other daughter and I decorate the front porch with huge webs, skeletons, motion activated snakes, strobe light and spooky sounds bluetoothed from the laptop on a wireless Bose speaker. Last year I bought a fog machine....We dress up and hand out cans of soda. Needless to say we are overrun with children who range from delighted to terrified. The yard has a lot of trees so this year I'd like to make a huge pile of leaves next to the steps so one of us could leap out and scare the spit out of the older kids. (Somebody never quite grew up

)

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:00 am

Site of our hauntings....

West Elm house.jpg

bathroom.jpg

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:44 am

Halloween isn't really big in Australia, but it sounds a lot of fun. You could hang some cobwebs from the trees as well. The fog must be fantastic, like all that dry ice floating over graveyards in old Hammer Horror films! The neighbourhood kids must look forward to it all.

I admire you renovating a lovely old house. Wonderful when it's done, but backbreaking work. I helped with one in England and everyone connected with it swore 'never again'. The look after it's all completed is great, though.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:35 am

I must admit (as much as I think a note never existed) that sending a child from the Whitehead house to the side door of the Borden's via backyard and over fences could be executed with a good chance of the child not being greatly noticed. This makes me wonder:

• Did Lizzie know Little Abby was going to be there that day? Would the child's presence have altered the murder plans?

• Could Abby have sent a note to her sister that the family was sick and feared poisoned, don't send Little Abby to stay. Somehow Lizzie got this mixed up given that she paid absolutely minimal attention to Mrs. Borden.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:33 am

I suppose Abby could have got a neighbourhood child, tipped them a nickel and a pie, and sent them with a note around to Sarah Whitehead on the Wednesday.
It would have had to have been the Wednesday as the vomiting all night occurred on the Tuesday. That fits in with 'little Abby's remembrance of last minute changes, if Abby agreed to babysit a week or so before.

The trouble with a Whitehead child being a messenger is that (a) little Abby never mentioned it to Sullivan who wrote about her reminiscences in his book, and (b) the boy, George, was only five, Abby eight, a bit young for climbing fences, tackling barbed wire and going through people's property.

Heaven knows whether she told Lizzie. Abby had presumably baby-sat on other occasions, but there's evidence of the 'girls' ignoring Abby's relatives and treating them as if they were invisible. Did Lizzie hear Abby say she was going to babysit and then later change her mind? Your guess is as good as mine! Lizzie never mentioned such a visit to Alice or the police or anyone, so my guess is she knew it was cancelled by Wednesday night.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:40 am

The VERY BEST Halloween costume I ever saw was a little vampire on my front porch. He was a very little fellow, appearing about 6 years old, with a LONG black cape flowing onto the floor. I put candy in his bag and he leaped to his full height (high school kid), made a sound, swirled his cape and was out the door. THAT got my attention!

Think about it. Adult in cape. Kids think it's another kid...but then....BAM!

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:56 am

Now that is a very original way of getting some lollies! (We call candies lollies in Australia.)

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:06 pm

Irina, send him my way next Halloween if he looked like this .....

Robert Pattison.jpg

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:46 pm

Bridget knew where Alice lived but not Mrs. Whitehead. Hmmmmm......... Maybe she never said, "If I knew where Mrs. Whitehead lived..." Maybe she said, "If I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was". Think about THAT. Did she know Mrs. W. was gone away for the day? How come it comes down to us the way it does? If it was my suggestion, did Bridget have knowledge of Little Abby not coming for the day? How? Note? Messenger boy? It NEVER made sense to me that Bridget didn't know where Mrs. W. LIVED. Bothers me no end.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 4:48 pm

I just saw the picture, Debbie. OK, if I see one like that I'll send him to Iowa by overnight Fed-Ex!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:42 pm

irina wrote:Bridget knew where Alice lived but not Mrs. Whitehead. Hmmmmm......... Maybe she never said, "If I knew where Mrs. Whitehead lived..." Maybe she said, "If I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was". Think about THAT. Did she know Mrs. W. was gone away for the day? How come it comes down to us the way it does? If it was my suggestion, did Bridget have knowledge of Little Abby not coming for the day? How? Note? Messenger boy? It NEVER made sense to me that Bridget didn't know where Mrs. W. LIVED. Bothers me no end.

Me, too. So much so that I'm beginning to wonder if she was telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The Whitehead house was about 600 feet slightly south and east...absolutely within the line of vision from Bridget's bedroom window.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:48 pm

Gosh, it seems a long time since those films were made! I can just imagine Robert Pattison turning up at debbie's house in a parcel!

That is very interesting, irina. I never thought of Bridget's turn of phrase. Of course, it could be just a quaint way of expressing herself, but if it is that she knew that Mrs W. was away for the day but not where...hmm! Of course, it would be logical really that Abby would have confided that she was looking forward to little Abby spending the day, and then her disappointment that she wouldn't be. Bridget too, might have been happy to have a child in the house for a day. What a pity that a question or two on the subject didn't come up at the inquest.

irina · Post by **irina** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:49 pm

There are so many things I wish they had asked. I have a feeling everyone was trying to keep everyone out of everything. If a messenger boy brought word and not a written note it wouldn't do much good to bring it up because people were looking for a note. Even if a street urchin brought a message he may not have known anyone wanted to hear from him, and or he knew he didn't bring a note. If he was a pre-teen chances are adults would have wanted to keep news of the scandal away from him. If there was an idea a messenger boy was sought I would expect half the street urchins in FR would have claimed to be him. First in line "Brownie and Me". (Those two were delinquents and I have considered them as murderers caught in the act of burglary, by Abby.)~~~~~~ For instance. Pure speculation. There are a lot of ways to look at things.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:23 pm

Of course, taking things further here, if Abby didn't get a written reply from Sarah, not a verbal one via the neighbourhood child or teen, how would she know the note had been successfully delivered? A youngster could very easily run off home with pie and nickel and not bother to go to the Whiteheads at all, not worrying about later consequences if Abby caught up with them again.

We don't know about neighbourhood networks, of course. On that Wednesday, a neighbour or acquaintance going in the direction of Fourth St could have been asked by Abby to just knock on Sarah's door and tell her she wasn't feeling well enough to baby-sit the next day.

For all we know Sarah might have called in momentarily to No 92 on the Wednesday morning when she was out shopping and been told the news. We know little of what went on on that Wednesday apart from the Bowen thing and Uncle John arriving.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:22 pm

Good point Irina. Or Bridget might have said, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead is...." which can be interpreted as either Sarah's abode or her body and could easily be misheard as, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead lives...." Plus I'm fairly sure Bridget's words and grammar bespoke her Irish heritage. Eye witness testimony is of debateable value, and most people don't hear much better. Whether 'was' or 'is' if this was Bridget's meaning then we must wonder about the communication between Second Street and Fourth Street. And it makes the possibility of a note or a message a lot more likely.

irina · Post by **irina** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:41 am

You might really be onto something Debbie. That sounds the most likely. It all depends on what the definition of is is.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:37 pm

debbiediablo wrote:Good point Irina. Or Bridget might have said, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead is...." which can be interpreted as either Sarah's abode or her body and could easily be misheard as, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead lives...." Plus I'm fairly sure Bridget's words and grammar bespoke her Irish heritage. Eye witness testimony is of debateable value, and most people don't hear much better. Whether 'was' or 'is' if this was Bridget's meaning then we must wonder about the communication between Second Street and Fourth Street. And it makes the possibility of a note or a message a lot more likely.

As I said in the other thread, now I'm debating with myself. Maybe Bridget didn't know where Mrs. Whitehead lived despite the close proximity. She was confused when sent to find Alice Russell.

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:59 pm

I've been thinking a lot about Uncle John ever since NoStoneUnturned posted her opinion that he didn't speak to Lizzie ever again because he knew she was responsible for Andrew's death. Although I don't think Morse had anything to do with the commission of the crimes, I do think he knew that Andrew and Abby were dead before he entered the house...that he paused to eat some pears and decide his course of action should Lizzie be what he thought her to be. He may have had no more proof than the police, except he knew what he knew. Maybe due conversation the previous night or because he saw Lizzie as capable of murder. His yelling for her when he entered the house was to see if she was another victim...or to confirm her as the perpetrator. Then Uncle John had to decide if he wanted to see his sister's child go to gallows possibly due to his testimony or if he wanted to leave the course of events undisturbed by his actions. I'm thinking his eating pears was a way of biding time while he considered his options.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:52 am

I don't think he and Lizzie were each other's favourite people BEFORE the murders, for reasons known to the posters on this forum! He didn't stay at No. 92 with Emma, to support her during the trial, which I find a bit surprising, though it might have been for propriety's sake, (them both being single and of the opposite sex.) John stayed with his friends, the Davis family, in South Dartmouth instead, and claimed travelling expenses from the court afterwards, a true BIL of Andrew!

Of course we don't know that he never spoke to his nieces again afterwards. John did turn up to Lizzie's home-coming party at the Holmes's. If things did turn a mite frosty at any time it might have had to do with Jennings sending the detective (Hanson?) West to dig up dirt on him. I wouldn't like it very much myself, and you can imagine a man who reputedly prided himself on his honesty in his business dealings being just a bit put off, especially as he knew his nieces must have agreed to it.

As for his reaction on the day of the murders, as we've discussed before there's a world of distance between a "Lizzie" uttered in tones of enquiry or anguish and an accusatory or reproachful "Lizzie!" Franz always would have it that it definitely meant something, but my own opinion is that he was just worried in case Lizzie had been attacked too. Even if his actions and demeanour afterwards didn't show it! He was such an eccentric character, who knows what he was thinking when he was chewing the pears!

debbiediablo · Post by **debbiediablo** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:19 am

Yes, Uncle John was eccentric for sure. Which is why his memory of every trivial piece of data on August 4 doesn't bother me so much as most everyone else. Much of my professional life (and my personal life, too) has been spent with people who remember everywhere they were on any given date for most of their lifetimes, people who memorize phone books and train/plane/bus schedules, one person who could play any piece of music he ever heard, another who could recite endless (and I do mean endless!!) trivia about chickens...all sorts of oddball stuff. Plus my own child who could recite endless (and I do mean endless!!) trivia about fungi. So if Uncle John wasn't banging his head on the pear tree I think he was relatively normal.

I'm convinced both he and Bridget had a darn good idea what happened that day and that it certainly places a person on the horns of a dilemma to be faced with a dead sister's youngest child quite likely being the killer of your BIL and best friend. Having nothing but the written word makes everything everyone said open to some degree of interpretation...which is why we're still discussing Lizzie 122 years later!

irina · Post by **irina** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:38 pm

I feel fairly certain Uncle John heard about the murders when he left his relatives' house to return to 92 Second. Someone somewhere along the way was talking about it. Morse then covered his backside by memorizing everything. I too think eating the pears was a way to size up things. Someone on the forum suggested Uncle John knew he wouldn't be getting another meal at the house that day so he fortified himself with pears. Makes sense, though I think the comment was meant to be humorous. I would suppose if Morse calling, "Lizzie", would have been better described if he had seemed to be angry or accusatory. As it is it is just an utterance so I am assuming it was simply said, perhaps loudly, but without any easily recognizable emotion.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:12 pm

Mrs. Churchill testified that Morse" hollered “Lizzie”, as loud as he could holler" (Inquest Testimony, p. 130)

irina · Post by **irina** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:57 pm

And that Franz, leaves it wide open to all kinds of interpretations. Was "Lizzie" hollered as loud as possible with anguish, fear, anger, disbelief? Is she alive? Did she do it? She finally did it? Is she injured? Where is she? There are many, many ways to look at that one word.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:53 pm

I agree, Irina. By Uncle John hollering for Lizzie, also indicates that he had heard about the murders before he returned to 92 Second Street. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have called out for Abby or Andrew, instead of Lizzie.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:57 pm

irina wrote:And that Franz, leaves it wide open to all kinds of interpretations. Was "Lizzie" hollered as loud as possible with anguish, fear, anger, disbelief? Is she alive? Did she do it? She finally did it? Is she injured? Where is she? There are many, many ways to look at that one word.

Yes, the testimony of Mrs. Churchill is open to different interpretations.

But what troubles me more is the fact that nobody never testified that Morse asked to anyone, immediately after being told the tragic news: "Murdered? But how were they murdered? And the killer, was he caught? And Lizzie? Is she fine?" Mr. Saywer, Bridget and Mrs. Churchill testified very minutely about what happened in those minutes, but they never (Morse himself included) thought to testify that Morse asked any of these questions. This fact makes me think that most probably Morse actually never asked at all.

Why? Because he didn' t need to ask. He knew everything. This is my interpretation. And my conclusion: Morse was the real guilty of the Borden case (certainly, this conclusion is based on many other considerations as well.).

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:59 pm

twinsrwe wrote:I agree, Irina. By Uncle John hollering for Lizzie, also indicates that he had heard about the murders before he returned to 92 Second Street. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have called out for Abby or Andrew, instead of Lizzie.

Why would he have called out for Abby or Andrew? At the moment he hollered Lizzie's name, he had been told that Abby and Andrew were killed.

Or do I misundertand you?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:30 pm

John Morse was informed that Abby was dead and went up to 'make sure' that what he had been told was correct in my opinion, as he was in shock. He testified that he didn't see anyone on the South side of the house except for Charles Sawyer (who told him about the murders when he approached the side door) and Bridget, so he stood for a couple of minutes and ate pears. They were probably juicy and he felt like them after journeying home.

Franz, in all your accusations about Morse you have never been able to produce one tiny morsel of evidence that he was ever involved in murder. Also, please Franz, don't infer again that Lizzie was doing something in the barn she was ashamed of. We've been through all that, before!

Everybody's changing their avatar/gifs. A new but similar one, twins!

irina · Post by **irina** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:12 pm

Mrs. Churchill's inquest testimony, page 130 (37):

Q: About what time in order of events did he (Morse) come home?
A: Both Mr. and Mrs. Borden had been found when he came. I think I was the first one that let him in. I says, "Mr. Morse, something terrible has happened, somebody has killed both Mr. and Mrs. Borden". He says, "what", and he hollered "Lizzie", as loud as he could holler, and rushed into the dining room....

Earlier she said she thought Morse had come from the east side of the yard. That's where the pear tree was, wasn't it? Mrs. Churchill believes all this took place before Sawyer got there. She claims to have been manning the door to make sure no one got in who shouldn't. Everyone has their own view of the events.

I strongly believe he knew at least that Andrew had been killed and that he learned of it on his way back from his relatives' home. If not it looks like various folks were bursting with the news when he got back. It bothers me a great deal that we don't have testimony or statements about the various family members and friends asking what happened, who did it, etc. SURELY someone asked these questions. They couldn't have all been in on a conspiracy. I have combed through testimony trying to see how at least Andrew's body was described at the first. I specifically looked for any slip of the tongue on Lizzie's part saying that her father had been "hacked", "beaten", "chopped", etc. Initial impressions were that he had been "cut" with a "very sharp instrument", and the idea of a hatchet/axe attack came a bit later. I didn't find anything incriminating from Lizzie.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:21 pm

Franz wrote:
twinsrwe wrote:I agree, Irina. By Uncle John hollering for Lizzie, also indicates that he had heard about the murders before he returned to 92 Second Street. Otherwise, I'm sure he would have called out for Abby or Andrew, instead of Lizzie.
Why would he have called out for Abby or Andrew? At the moment he hollered Lizzie's name, he had been told that Abby and Andrew were killed.

Or do I misundertand you?

You are misunderstanding me, Franz. Let me put it another way: If John had not heard about the murders before he had arrived at 92 Second Street after his visit with relatives in Swansea, then I'm sure he would have called out for Abby or Andrew, instead of Lizzie.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:24 pm

OFF TOPIC:

Curryong wrote:... Everybody's changing their avatar/gifs. A new but similar one, twins!

Yes, Debbie and I are testing out some links, which allow us to resize our gif pics. Pretty cool, huh?

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:58 pm

Officer Allen was the first policeman present. He met Charles Sawyer strolling along Second St and got him to guard the side door. He checked the cellar door. Sawyer locked the inside door leading down to the cellar. It only took Allen about eight minutes to get to Second St from the Central police station. He testified that Bowen was arriving in his gig as he ran up and he also saw Alice Russell's arrival.

As Bowen had asked for sheets and Bridget and Mrs Churchill had already discovered Mrs Borden by the time Uncle John decided to come into the house from the pear trees (John testified that he noticed no fuss/people when he arrived home at No 92) it can't have been Mrs Churchill who let him into the actual house. Sawyer was already there, in situ, and remained on guard duty all day. Mrs Churchill probably meant she let him into the dining room.

irina · Post by **irina** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:19 am

The way Mrs. Churchill says it I take it she guarded the back door for a bit. I assume this may be true until Sawyer got there.

Could Morse have entered the yard some way other than the front gate? Did he ease up to the situation so he could observe for a bit? We all think it's strange he ate some pears and didn't notice anything odd. It seems if he entered by the front gate he couldn't have helped notice something out of order. As I understand it there were all kinds of fences around the yard but people did climb the fences~like the fellow who stole some pears. If he entered by the front gate, turned right (?) to the east, went around the house and ate pears, he was an example of someone who entered the Borden yard that day, that no one saw. Besides nosy neighbours he was avoided by Bridget, Mrs. Bowen, Dr. Bowen, Officer Allen, Alice Russell and Sawyer's arrival. I cannot recall anyone seeing him arrive before what Mrs. Churchill and Sawyer have to say, and when Sawyer saw him it was at the back door. Nobody testified that they told Morse about the tragedy directly he entered the yard and Mr. Churchill said he came from the east. Had he been told of events when he reached the front gate then his own testimony about peacefully eating pears and knowing nothing, would be ridiculous and he wouldn't have gotten away with it.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:45 am

Curryong wrote:... Mrs Churchill probably meant she let him into the dining room.

By my understanding Mrs. Churchill probably let Morse into the kitchen; Mrs. Churchill herself testified that it was Alice who let Morse into the dining room (Inquest Testimony, p. 130).

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:03 am

This is John Morse's testimony from the trial Page 15/75

Q. When was the first you heard that Mr Borden had been killed?

A. When I went to the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back the servant girl met me at the door and asked me if I had heard the news. I said no. She said Mr and Mrs Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at that time.

Q Was anybody else in the house then?

A. A man named Bowen, several policemen. I don't know. There was so much excitement. I know there were several women there.....

Q.They had found Mrs Borden at that time?

A. Yes, or she could not have told me.

Q Where did you see Lizzie when you got in there?

A. I think in the dining room.

Q. Who was with her?

A that I cannot tell.

From this it's clear that Sawyer (and Bridget) were at the back door and Lizzie was being tended to by her friends. Also, by the time John Morse had got into the house both victims had been found.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:14 am

If I understand well, some members think that Morse had probably known the murder before his arrival (so before his being informed by Mr. Sawyer and Bridget), meanwhile they don't think Morse was invovled in the murder.

Do I understand well?

Morse himself testified that " ... (I) was told that Mr. and Mrs. Borden was killed. That was the first I knew of their deaths.”. (Witness Statement, p. 3). If Morse did know the news before his arrival, and if he was totally innocent, why did he need to lie? In anyway his alibi was there, he had no reason to fear. Why didn't he rush to the house (from the street), and asked the first person he saw in the yard: "I heard Mr. and Mrs. Borden were murdered, really?", etc., etc.

And if Morse was out of the house and wasn't involved in the murder, why could he think that he would be suspected and then prepared a good alibi? At least this should not have been his first thingking (it would be different if Morse, innocent, were in the house somewhere, for example, in the cellar, when the murder occured. In this case he could certainly worry that he would be suspected.). His first thinking might be the safety of Lizzie, how did the murder occur? if the criminal(s) was (were) caught. But Sawyer testified Morse remained outside for a few minutes, but nobody testified that in these few minutes (even only one or two minutes) he had asked anything about all this.

P.S.: I certainly agree that Uncle John was an odd guy. But meanwhile, I think that his oddness of everyday can't exclude the possibility that his oddness of that murder day was criminal.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:17 am

Curryong wrote:This is John Morse's testimony from the trial Page 15/75

Q. When was the first you heard that Mr Borden had been killed?

A. When I went to the door. I went around, before I went into the house, to a pear tree to get a couple of pears. When I came back the servant girl met me at the door and asked me if I had heard the news. I said no. She said Mr and Mrs Borden were both murdered. A man named Sawyer stood there at that time.

Q Was anybody else in the house then?

A. A man named Bowen, several policemen. I don't know. There was so much excitement. I know there were several women there.....

Q.They had found Mrs Borden at that time?

A. Yes, or she could not have told me.

Q Where did you see Lizzie when you got in there?

A. I think in the dining room.

Q. Who was with her?

A that I cannot tell.

From this it's clear that Sawyer (and Bridget) were at the back door and Lizzie was being tended to by her friends. Also, by the time John Morse had got into the house both victims had been found.

Yes, Curryong. I think that nobody thinks differently.

irina · Post by **irina** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:52 am

Newspapers and various other sources say people were commenting or perhaps yelling in the streets, from one to another, that old man Borden had been killed or that the old skinflint got what he deserved, etc. At the very least Morse could have heard something he did not fully understand and so prepared himself on the ride home. He was the type who wouldn't have called attention to himself on the ride home, I think. Therefore he wouldn't have been asking people to clarify and explain, when they may have been murmuring about murder.

Morse' testimony does make it seem he went around the east side of the house to the pear tree, but again if he went through the front gate, nobody saw him until he reached the back door. Interesting.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:07 pm

Irina thought that Mrs Churchill was guarding the back door, Franz, if you read her earlier post. I was just pointing out that Charles Sawyer was guarding the door from about 11:20am, which was when Officer Allen got there and put him on guard. John Morse didn't get back to No 92 until about twenty to twelve on that morning.

irina · Post by **irina** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Mrs. Churchill may have stood at the door until Sawyer & Allen got there. Or maybe she remembered it that way.

Considering Morse maybe hearing that old man Borden was killed, or something like that, FR was so full of Bordens that Uncle John could be forgiven for hoping and praying it was some other Borden, rather than his brother-in-law and friend. That could explain some of his seemingly odd actions also.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:27 pm

debbiediablo wrote:… Bridget might have said, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead is...." which can be interpreted as either Sarah's abode or her body and could easily be misheard as, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead lives...." Plus I'm fairly sure Bridget's words and grammar bespoke her Irish heritage. Eye witness testimony is of debateable value, and most people don't hear much better. Whether 'was' or 'is' if this was Bridget's meaning then we must wonder about the communication between Second Street and Fourth Street. And it makes the possibility of a note or a message a lot more likely.

I agree, Debbie. Bridget could very well have been misheard. If we compare the two partial sentences of, "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead lives...." and "If I knowed where Mrs. Whitehead is....", the words "is" and "lives" sound very similar in the English language. What do they sound like when spoken with an Irish accent?

I did some research and found the following video. Try to ignore the silliest of these two guys, and listen carefully to what they are saying; at around 2:53, right after they talk about potatoes, these guys use the word “is”…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fch8MqqhQw

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:36 pm

What is interesting in Mrs Churchill's early testimony at the trial is how close the houses were. She opened the east window to her kitchen and spoke out of it to Lizzie, who was standing by the side door of no. 92. This was about 11:10 or 11:11 am.
'I opened the window and said "Lizzie, what is the matter?" She said "Oh Mrs Churchill, do come over! Somebody has killed father."

There was apparently no raising of voices in order to hear. They just 'spoke' to each other. Mrs Churchill then went over and had that brief conversation with Lizzie in which Lizzie spoke of Andrew's enemies and Mrs Churchill asked if she should go find a doctor. Lizzie agreed and Mrs Churchill then rushed over to Hall's Stables where her manservant was in order to tell him to go for a doctor. She was agitated of course and several people, including Cunningham, heard her say that Andrew had been killed.

She then returned to the Borden house, where presently Dr Bowen arrived and so did Bridget then Alice. Cunningham phoned the newspaper offices then the police. The time was then 11:15am. Marshall Hilliard and Allen both gave testimony that the time when the message was received was 11:15am. Allen set off immediately Hilliard told him to go and arrived at No 92 about six to eight minutes later (he timed it on a later journey) picking up Charles Sawyer on the way. It was 500 feet between the station and No 92. Allen arrived moments after Bowen rushed up in his gig.

This is Mrs Churchill's testimony after Bridget's arrival back and Dr Bowen's arrival. (Allen could see him arriving as he ran up the street.)
Q Will you state what occurred after Bridget and Dr Bowen came?
A. Someone told him that Mr Borden was in the sitting room and we followed him, Lizzie, myself and Bridget into the dining room and he passed from the dining room into the sitting room where Mr Borden was.

Mrs Churchill remained in the dining room with the others until Dr Bowen came out and 'made some exclamation' and (most unprofessionally in my opinion) urged 'Addie' (Mrs Churchill) to go in and see him, which she wouldn't.

The point is though, that by then Allen and Sawyer had arrived. Sawyer was deputised to guard the door immediately. He locked the inner cellar door and remained on guard there on the side door until he asked late in the day if he could go for his tea!

At that point in the proceedings Uncle John was presumably taking leave of his niece and catching the street car, arriving back at 92 at about 20 or 15 minutes to twelve o clock. Sawyer was at the door then. There doesn't appear to be any period of time in which Mrs Churchill was on guard duty anywhere near the door except when she was having that first conversation with Lizzie, or momentarily just before Bridget and Dr Bowen arrived. (Allen gave testimony that he saw Bridget returning on Second St.)

Allen was met at the side door by Dr Bowen who said he needed a police officer. Allen identified himself, saw Andrew's body before the sheet was put over him and checked the ground floor closets. Mrs Churchill was certainly inside with Lizzie AFTER Dr Bowen first arrived.

PossumPie · Post by **PossumPie** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:38 am

Just like the urban legend about it being "The hottest day on record" (It was low to mid 80s) The legend says the streets were swelling with thousands of people taling about the murders. HOWEVER, many directly testified that at the time Morse returned there was no one around except the two we know of at the side door. The crowds were concocted to sell newspapers although by evening there had been more people congregating.
If Morse had planned the murders, he didn't need any more time to stand around and think it through...on the contrary. Morse standing eating pears would LOOK suspicious, so IF he were guilty, he would NEVER have stood there looking cool calm and eating pears. He would have rushed right in. He had plenty of time to think about his story as he walked to the house.
ARRRGGGG...It drives me batty to hear people take one speck of a conversation, one person's interpretation of an action, and build a theory around it. This is like putting a puzzle together. You don't dump out a puzzle, grab a random piece, and begin expounding on what the picture will look like when all put together. You begin fitting pieces together looking at patterns until a large picture begins to appear.
Morse calling "Lizzie" when he finds out her parents are both dead is the most rational thing he could have said...WHY is that suspicious? SO WHAT if Morse called "Lizzie". When Bridget said "Pshaw!" when she couldn't open the door, perhaps that was a secret code word to let alien life forms know that they could kill Abby and use her for experiments.........or maybe it just meant "Pshaw"
I have seen almost every character in this incident scrutinized for some suspicious word or action. The truth is we all do suspicious things every day that if we were confronted about, would be hard to explain. The other day I was reloading some ammunition, and I went upstairs to get my pistol to check if the ammo fit...as I was descending the stairs, the UPS driver was dropping a package on my porch. He saw me coming down stairs with a pistol....totally innocent, he waved and turned and left. BUT if my wife turned up strangled to death later that day, he could have given some damning evidence in court about my suspicious behavior. If we nit-pick a word, or expression and build a whole case we are irresponsible. Morse say a word, he went in a door, he did or didn't talk to Lizzie, He could have just as easily broken wind, sat in the first chair he found and begun reading the newspaper. That wouldn't make him guilty of anything except poor manners. I've volunteered on an ambulance. People act weird, strange, guilty, cowardly, etc. when faced with a horrible situation. That doesn't make them guilty of a crime, but it makes them human. Lizzie saying "Come quick, someone has killed father" is a very suspicious thing to say and supports my idea that Lizzie was the killer, BUT I don't give it much weight b/c people say strange things when upset.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:49 am

PossumPie wrote:...
If Morse had planned the murders, he didn't need any more time to stand around and think it through...on the contrary. Morse standing eating pears would LOOK suspicious, so IF he were guilty, he would NEVER have stood there looking cool calm and eating pears. He would have rushed right in. He had plenty of time to think about his story as he walked to the house.
...
Morse calling "Lizzie" when he finds out her parents are both dead is the most rational thing he could have said...WHY is that suspicious? ...

I don't agree, Possum.

1. You said: "If Morse had planned the murders, he didn't need any more time to stand around and think it through." Yes, he didn't need any more time to think through the murder plan, but he probably needed some time to calm his emotion --- he was nervous ---, he was to enter the house where two bodies were lying there, victims of his murder plan. He was nervous, anxious and eager to see the murder scene, and he probably had fear to some extent. His hands and all his body probably were shaking. Morse needed time to calm himself and concentrate his mind, his eating pears could be for this reason.

2. Morse's hollering Lizzie's name was not suspicious at all. As you said, this should be the most rational thing to call Lizzie's name. What seems to me suspicious is that Morse called (hollered) Lizzie's name TOO LATE. When Bridget told him the tragic news, did he holler her name? When Mr. Sawyer repeated the news to him, did he holler her name? He hollered her name only after remaining outside for a few minutes, only after being told for the third time by Mrs. Churchill, he begun to holler Lizzie's name, And while doing so, he didn't care at all to find Lizzie --- who was very easy to find. He didn't care at all who were there in the dining room, what he actually did was just rushing directly into the sitting room where Andrew's body was lying on the sofa (but, dear uncle John, who informed you that Andrew's body was there, instead of being in the cellar or any other place in the house? You were so lucky that Knowlton didn't ask you this question.).

3. And, the last but not the least, being told for the THIRD time the tragic news, Morse said "what". Why, please?

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:49 am

Sorry, double post.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:49 am

How about delayed reaction, due to shock, Franz, as the cause of John not saying anything immediately. I was once with someone when they were informed that their father had died right over the other side of the continent. The woman was quiet for about five minutes except for crying, and then said, twice, "So he died in Perth?" People say or don't say things when they are shocked, or they could say something or do something that makes no sense at all.

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:24 am

Curryong wrote:How about delayed reaction, due to shock, Franz, as the cause of John not saying anything immediately. I was once with someone when they were informed that their father had died right over the other side of the continent. The woman was quiet for about five minutes except for crying, and then said, twice, "So he died in Perth?" People say or don't say things when they are shocked, or they could say something or do something that makes no sense at all.

Yes, you are right. People are all different and can react differently before a tragic situation.

So Lizzie's reaction after the discovery of her father's body could have had nothing of suspicious.

Curryong · Post by **Curryong** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:30 am

Oh no, Franz, you are not trapping me in that corner!

John morse had a viable alibi for both murders, attested to by others! Lizzie didn't!

Franz · Post by **Franz** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:40 am

Curryong wrote:Oh no, Franz, you are not trapping me in that corner! John morse had a viable alibi for both murders, attested to by others! Lizzie didn't!

Yes you are right Curryong, John Morse had a viable alibi for both murders. This proves beyond reasonable doubts that he didn't kill them personally, but this could not exclude the possibility that Morse was guilty : having orchestred the murder.